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The difference is Allison. All the previous times Zoss supposedly picked some cocky would-be hero kid, this time it ended up being someone who wanted nothing to do with heroism or rulership at first.
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Apr 19, 2022 20:17
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Solomon's kamikaze doing even that much is incredibly impressive, but I thought it was pretty clear from the narrative that they'd never be able to kill him without full cooperation from all the demiurges. The comic is all about performing feats that everyone from experts to amateurs declares to be impossible. It shouldn't be assumed that Solomon's attack failed to kill any more than it should be assumed that it worked.
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Apr 19, 2022 20:24
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Solomon's kamikaze doing even that much is incredibly impressive, but I thought it was pretty clear from the narrative that they'd never be able to kill him without full cooperation from all the demiurges. Yeah, if it turns out Dave actually is the one and only person who can singlehandedly end this massive existential threat to his people, it basically undermines everything that happened in the last book and a half.
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Apr 19, 2022 20:26
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the holy poopacy posted:I suppose one of the major themes of Dave's book was self-sacrifice and the importance of being willing to give up victory (which is explicitly contrasted with simply striving to be strong enough to smash everything into submission), and Dave's big thing is explicitly a suicide attack, so maybe the key turning point is that Allison & co. were able to shame Dave into doing something unthinkable to the conquering heirs. Jaggonoth has fought Solomon countless times before and won every time. It'd be weird if he didn't try this same attack in what is clearly a battle to the death the other times. Reclaimer posted:The comic is all about performing feats that everyone from experts to amateurs declares to be impossible. It shouldn't be assumed that Solomon's attack failed to kill any more than it should be assumed that it worked. Yeah but from a narrative standpoint it'd be a bit of an anticlimax.
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Apr 19, 2022 20:33
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eta: nm
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Apr 19, 2022 20:34
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GunnerJ posted:The difference is Allison. All the previous times Zoss supposedly picked some cocky would-be hero kid, this time it ended up being someone who wanted nothing to do with heroism or rulership at first. My impression was that, out of however many heirs there have been, Allison is the only one that actually gathered the demiurges together to fight Jagganoth. The previous heirs just killed the demiurges one or two at a time like so many video game bosses, and any that survived the fights with the first six got smoked trying to solo Jags. Allison derailed the plot so hard that she almost managed to win a conflict that was designed to be unwinnable.
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Apr 19, 2022 20:38
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My guess is she is yet to do the thing that will break the cycle, and it's likely to involve Cio and White Chain in some way.
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Apr 19, 2022 20:40
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Jaggonoth has fought Solomon countless times before and won every time. It'd be weird if he didn't try this same attack in what is clearly a battle to the death the other times. Yeah, but none of those previous times did Allison encourage White Chain enough to humiliate Solomon, filling him with the inferiority complex needed to power his ultimate attacks.
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Apr 19, 2022 20:44
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Allison also had the whole Aspected Chaos thing going on. I suspect the various Zaids didn't bond with a devil or push an angel into self-actualisation like that. Might well have tipped the balance of power even if past cycles had all of the demiurges survive.
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Apr 19, 2022 20:44
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I don't think Solomon killed Jagganoth, but I do think he slowed him down quite a lot and maybe did something real weird. Maybe Jagganoth is stuck in a black hole over Throne for a while now as the omniverse goes to hell! One thing that this comic is making clear is that this isn't going to be a clean break with one big fight and then everything is fixable. The world's going to get worse before it gets better - I wonder what Incubus has been up to recently, you know? Besides presumably dueling Maya until they both got tired and he left. Anyways, it may in fact be the case that previous Heirs just did a hero's journey focused on their own preparation to rule, wiped out each demiurge without really engaging in trying to break said demiurge's own cycle, and then got bodied facing Jagganoth (or beat him and then something else, such as Metatron, reset everything). I do think it's likely that Jagganoth's been causing the wheel to turn back by winning, and Zoss reacts to pending omnicide with 'no, I don't like that ending.' It would fit the theme of cycles, ignorance, and self-destruction.
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Apr 19, 2022 21:04
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There's no way Dave has beaten Jagganoth
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Apr 19, 2022 21:23
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they're gonna shatter the keys and allow the worlds of the universe to self-determine again
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Apr 19, 2022 21:28
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that one remaining practitioner of ki rata can come and go from the corpse of heaven as he pleases, get his favorite noodles, but aside from that king universal mass transit will be dead
Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Apr 19, 2022 |
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Apr 19, 2022 21:29
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No big fight? But how else do you resolve plot in Shonen battle? Talking? Talking without fighting just doesn't jive with my media consumption!
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Apr 19, 2022 21:37
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M_Gargantua posted:No big fight? But how else do you resolve plot in Shonen battle? Talking? Talking without fighting just doesn't jive with my media consumption! Sudden swerve in genre inspiration and Alison will sing the song that saves mankind
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Apr 19, 2022 21:41
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Violence is inescapable
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Apr 19, 2022 21:41
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Sudden swerve in genre inspiration and Alison will sing the song that saves mankind Ok but Macross was Singing *and* fighting But I guess I could accept the Bill and Ted future
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Apr 19, 2022 21:51
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given the references of mysticism in the work, aspected chaos being literally titled The Fool, as in, the only unordered card of the major arcana, the only one that in tarot games that can beat the highest card (The World) and the one that symbolically stands outside the order of things because it doesn't fit in any category of cards is very appropriate or in other words, it doesn't matter anymore how many times poo poo happened before in predictable ways because the fool has come into play and suddenly angels can transcend their primordial conditions
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Apr 19, 2022 22:25
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Allison, the holy fool
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Apr 19, 2022 22:39
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IMJack posted:"UNDYING!!!" The next timeline is a Jagganoth the Undying challenge path.
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Apr 19, 2022 22:42
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The whole point of Jagganoth is that he is a problem you cannot punch. You can't hurt him more than he's already hurting himself.
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Apr 20, 2022 01:27
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Jagganoth and Solomon are currently in the second phase of the "fought for seven years, made love for seven hours" cycle.
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Apr 20, 2022 02:22
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wiegieman posted:The whole point of Jagganoth is that he is a problem you cannot punch. You can't hurt him more than he's already hurting himself. I'm pretty sure Solomon has proven Ki Rata has a dick punch that can hurt more
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Apr 20, 2022 02:29
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Jaggonoth has fought Solomon countless times before and won every time. It'd be weird if he didn't try this same attack in what is clearly a battle to the death the other times. In the summary of the cycle we've heard, Dave neve fought Solomon head to head--the conquering heir always took the lesser demiurges out first before Jagganoth does his thing. So that's one difference already. The key question is then again, as you say, why Solomon only unleashes this move in this particular cycle after losing to the heir every other time. I am thinking though of Zoss's lecture to Allison during the tourney arc, though: it seems plausible that the answer here is that Solomon clings too hard to victory. He doesn't bother self immolating against the heir--or doing it right away against Jagganoth, for that matter--because he still believes himself to be above that. He is arrogant enough to think that he can win. He needs both White Chain's example to go by, and the continual trampling of his pride, to bring him to a place where he's willing to throw himself away just on the chance of doing something to Jaggs. Just a hypothesis, and not necessarily one I believr myself. I still doubt he's really gone gone in any event.
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Apr 20, 2022 02:51
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Ah. Well, even if that's the case, it doesn't make sense Solomon would always lose to the heir and then the heir always lose to Jaggonoth. So even if this is difference, I highly doubt he's gone.
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Apr 20, 2022 03:06
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On the one hand, Jagganoth has an insurmountably higher power level than Solomon David, but on the other hand, power levels are bullshit.
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Apr 20, 2022 03:08
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I certainly don't think Jaggs is out of the picture, and nothing that Inky has said suggests he is out of the picture, so queue training montages 3 and 4 *music swells* I NEED A
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Apr 20, 2022 03:29
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Ah. Well, even if that's the case, it doesn't make sense Solomon would always lose to the heir and then the heir always lose to Jaggonoth. So even if this is difference, I highly doubt he's gone. I don't know that it's a certainty that *every* heir made it all the way to Jagganoth. Some of them may have gotten punked earlier on their conquest. Just that nobody has ever beaten Jagganoth in any prior cycle, and the big man finished off whoever hadn't already been killed by the point we reached at the end of the last book.
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Apr 20, 2022 04:07
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Maybe it’s just incubus, jagganoth and jadis left. Both jadis and jaggs have knowledge of the cycle and are tortured by it (I presume). Perhaps the cycle is already broken and we get to see a new future unfold. Allison actually keeping them all alive until the finale and getting them to cooperate may be the thing that start the breaking of the cycle. Jaggs realizes that annihilation is no longer required, jadis can finally die and we’re just left with incubus as a foil to Allison’s wants. Of all the demiurges I feel like incubus is the one who has the most connection and relevance to our protagonist. Whatever he wants her to be it is better to be the exact opposite. His story is resolved by resolving her story, while the stories of jaggs and jadis are tied to the breaking of the cycle. I can’t see the comic ending without resolving the loose ends from our demiurge friends and I’m looking forward to the end. I have faith in our boi to surprise and exhilarate us. Anyway, just my thoughts at the moment. Comic good and I’m glad our abbadon is updating again and hope his family is happy and healthy. Fake edit; gently caress. Forgot about our friend gogagog.
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Apr 20, 2022 08:50
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Solomon is 100% enough of a smug dumbass to not use his suicidal unbeatable attack until its too late and he gets punked. Jaggs is going to come back though, because having him lose against the stronger punchman and die goes against a lot of the themes of the story up until this point; its all about struggling to find new options in the face of the hegemony of violence.
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Apr 20, 2022 09:02
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Vagabong posted:Jaggs is going to come back though, because having him lose against the stronger punchman and die goes against a lot of the themes of the story up until this point; its all about struggling to find new options in the face of the hegemony of violence. It's not just "losing to the stronger punchman" though. What Dave did required him to cast away his pride and self-abnegate after making a crushing realization, which seems like a "new option" from the embodiment of arrogance and majesty. Edit: To be clear, I don't know if Jaggs is dead, but I don't think it would betray anything if he were. Dave didn't beat him by just using superior violence. Dave managed to beat him only after publicly losing his aura of invincibility to a literal miracle and having to answer for his shortcomings as a ruler, leading to the realization that he actually sucked at it and the best thing he could do for the world is throw away his life to save it. There's a lot more than the hegemony of violence going on there. GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Apr 20, 2022 |
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Apr 20, 2022 11:55
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I wonder how much of the city they've destroyed
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Apr 20, 2022 13:06
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Why are we talking about Jaggs when the newest page hath yet to come?
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Apr 20, 2022 13:48
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Grouchio posted:Why are we talking about Jaggs when the newest page hath yet to come? Why does the current conversation have to focus exclusively on the current page? Edit: Unless you're talking about spoilers for the next page from Patreon (I'm not a patron), in which case you'd be...spoiling it.
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Apr 20, 2022 14:00
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There Bias Two posted:Why does the current conversation have to focus exclusively on the current page? Here is an unspoiler for you: The next page does not contain or even reference Jaggs.
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Apr 20, 2022 14:03
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The thread has been diligently adhering to the "don't talk about the preview pages in the thread" request and you're gonna drive yourself crazy if you start imagining that all the wild supposition is actually about the patreon preview. Wild supposition is kinda what the thread does. I'm of the opinion that I don't know enough to know what I don't know about the fate of Jagganoth. It does seem, however, that Solomon David's suicide attack at the very least inconvenienced Jagganoth and at least temporarily removed him from the battlefield. That said, given how Solomon David envisioned his wife and daughters looking at him right before final impact I think there might be something to the "was never previously beaten down enough to consider throwing his own life away to stop Jagganoth" view. I'm also of the opinion that the "pathetic" was about how he'd spent his whole life holding on to the idea that he was a perfect hardman and not actually being a good ruler or father. I mean, geez, imagine if he'd trained the best of his children/subjects in Ki-Rata, maybe they could have had a better shot at stopping Jagganoth. Also, I didn't realize the Fool could overtop the World in Tarot, which is a pretty neat little bit of additional context.
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Apr 20, 2022 14:09
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Felt initially a bit like patreon people were commenting on the next page, but I think its more a reflection of the fact that if Alison has been able to get medical attention the multiverse can't have been destroyed yet, so Solomon's black hole thing seems to have worked on Jaggs (for now). I wonder if Incubus is going to be the main antagonist for a while if Jaggs is in a time out. Him trying to take over now would fit with the whole "wait til the starving best each other up then you'll feast" speech, and Allison certainly has reason to hate him personally now.
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Apr 20, 2022 14:12
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I think it's all but guaranteed that Solomon is dead, having never felt the need to sacrifice himself to defeat anyone before. My called shot on Jagg is that Solomon messed with the Metatron's nails in some fashion and Jagg could be an ally against the angels/whatever incubus has cooking.
Dracula Factory fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Apr 20, 2022 |
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Apr 20, 2022 14:16
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Grouchio posted:Why are we talking about Jaggs when the newest page hath yet to come? Jaggohog withdrawal.
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Apr 20, 2022 14:30
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Clean Your Teeth posted:I wonder if Incubus is going to be the main antagonist for a while if Jaggs is in a time out. Him trying to take over now would fit with the whole "wait til the starving best each other up then you'll feast" speech, and Allison certainly has reason to hate him personally now. This is what I'm assuming. Inky feels like the sort of character that is "fated" to be a secondary antagonist, but unforseen circumstances let him jump into the driver's seat and now everything is a mess. Gog-agog is still out there somewhere and will probably need to be reckoned with at some point. She seems less like a primary antagonist and more like a force of nature / Giygas-esque nightmare monster though. Or maybe Allison will completely disarm her as a threat just by being nice. Who can say? And I guess the coming weeks will tell us whether Jadis has been the real big bad all along or if she even cares about any of that.
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Apr 20, 2022 14:54
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