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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Well...yeah. I mean, why does the Gundam matter that much if there have already been Federation mobile suits? Isn't that half of why it becomes the "White Devil?" Because it's the first one that doesn't suck? I mean, even in 0079 the Guntank and Guncannon were there, they were just pretty terrible. The notion of pre-0079 Earth mobile suits never bothered me about the Origin, because it fit with how I read the war anyway; that Zeon excelled in the early days of the OYW not because they were the only ones with mobile suits at all, but because they were the only ones that fully understood their utility. Until the Gundam, Earth's suits weren't matching up to the Zakus because they didn't truly understand why the Zakus were beating them.
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Apr 20, 2022 02:26
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After the Gundam the GMs where the first suit they made that were pretty good.
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Apr 20, 2022 02:29
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The Zaku problem is basically the unfair match-up between the Japanese A6M Zero and the USAF's early war planes if the Wildcat pilots never figured out how to deal with Zeros and kept getting their poo poo pushed in until the Hellcats entered service.
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Apr 20, 2022 02:30
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Not to mention various other prototypes like the Zanny or the various earlier iterations of the Project V suits(including the ones that the Ground Gundams and Ground GM's derived their parts and general aesthetic from) prior to the finalized versions at Side 7
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Apr 20, 2022 02:32
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Seriously, if you're going to do that, then delete the viewport in it. Which is itself already stupid, but why keep it? Because otherwise you'd need to flip the shield around to orient the viewport.
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Apr 20, 2022 02:32
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Yeah the idea of the Federation having crappier MS makes more sense than going from 0 to Gundam
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Apr 20, 2022 03:31
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah the idea of the Federation having crappier MS makes more sense than going from 0 to Gundam Especially when the Guncannon and the Guntank are explicitly predecessors to the Gundam... only they get deployed at the same time for the first time, or even after the Gundam.
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Apr 20, 2022 03:34
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zeon's alarming, unprecedented success at the beginning of the oyw doesn't make sense if it was ms vs. ms. guntanks vs. zakus is a much smaller gap than balls vs. zakus.
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Apr 20, 2022 03:35
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:the funniest thing Jerid ever does is briefly convince himself that the brain damage-induced seizure he had after getting owned the Xth time was actually a newtype moment Jerid actually does start manifesting as a newtype at the end of the show. Newtypes react to his presence and he pilots the Baund Doc - which was designed with cyber NTs in mind - extremely effectively. It's just that it happens way too little, too late. gimme the GOD drat candy posted:zeon's alarming, unprecedented success at the beginning of the oyw doesn't make sense if it was ms vs. ms. guntanks vs. zakus is a much smaller gap than balls vs. zakus. Why would this be the case? The Guntank is effectively an XL-sized tank that happens to have a torso assembly(which can't turn, lmao) instead of a turret. There's nothing inherently special or super powerful about it besides being made of luna titanium(and you could build a type 61 tank out of luna titanium and it would still be crap). It sucks rear end in space because it has basically no AMBAC surfaces and it can't handle powering anything fancy or impressive like a beam weapon. It makes a lot more sense as a lovely forerunner unit - the functional equivalent of World War I's "land battleship" tanks - than it does as a bleeding edge super prototype.
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Apr 20, 2022 03:42
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:zeon's alarming, unprecedented success at the beginning of the oyw doesn't make sense if it was ms vs. ms. guntanks vs. zakus is a much smaller gap than balls vs. zakus. It absolutely does because it wasn't Guntanks. It was a crappier predecessor that couldn't even function in space. And even the real Guntank has been so crappy it was replaced by a second Guncannon for a whule now
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Apr 20, 2022 03:46
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regardless of it getting crowbarred in via animation, the origin was conceived as its own thing and isn't meant to inform or retcon the original animated setting. and yeah, the gundam is still important because the feds early efforts get completely dusted in the prototyping phase and the the "guntanks" that predate white base's are basically in the tier of the mobile workers that would inspire mobile suits proper.
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Apr 20, 2022 04:08
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no matter how lovely origin guntanks might be, they still aren't as lovely as balls.
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Apr 20, 2022 04:16
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i mean balls can function in space they're also at least cost effective enough to be worth producing after the GM exists
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Apr 20, 2022 04:23
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:no matter how lovely origin guntanks might be, they still aren't as lovely as balls. They are actually on the same level of poo poo, just one is ground-based and one is space-based. Tbe Origin Guntanks are effectively Ball(Ground Type)
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Apr 20, 2022 04:26
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:no matter how lovely origin guntanks might be, they still aren't as lovely as balls. The Ball's good at what it does, unlike the Guntank. It's fast, cheap, can take advantage of AMBAC for better fuel efficiency, and has enough firepower to boom and zoom Zakus. Sure, a Zaku can usually kill two or three RB-79s before going boom, but the Federation can afford four of them for every Zaku, and they've got a lot more resources than Zeon to begin with. Guntanks, meanwhile, are expensive, in addition to being ground only, slow, and unable to use AMBAC.
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Apr 20, 2022 04:42
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:no matter how lovely origin guntanks might be, they still aren't as lovely as balls. A Ball destroyed three Rick Doms. Sure, it was piloted by a Newtype, but I'm not sure if I can say the same about the Guntank.
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Apr 20, 2022 04:44
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the robots are only supposed to be realistic while they're fighting
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Apr 20, 2022 04:51
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They should add the balls to Gundam Evo
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Apr 20, 2022 04:52
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Even a ball can do it.
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Apr 20, 2022 05:01
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Marin Karin posted:I'm 45 eps into my own first Zeta watch, and I think it's amusing how Jerid kind of obsesses more about fighting Kamille than vice versa, even though Kamille has way more reason to. Kamille has had a lot of poo poo happen to him, and seems like he would be perfectly fine never seeing or hearing about Jerid again. While Jerid is like, "OH gently caress IT'S KAMILLE I GOTTA PUT HIM IN HIS PLACE" And that's probably sort of the point of the character, Camille gets over Jerid because he's not important. Camille never stops being angry, but he starts focusing his frustration at bigger picture bad guys who actually are directly involved in extending and escalating the war, and that's not Jerid. Jerid is functionally a named mook. He gets the poo poo slapped out of him repeatedly but manages to survive and fail upwards into more and more advanced mobile suits to lose fights in. Yeah, he is a joke. And his endless cavalcade of failures is the punchline. He's basically positioned as Patrick except without the underdog appeal.
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Apr 20, 2022 05:46
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i was going to pile in more on how silly it is to dislike something for making fairly reasonable changes to the giant robot's fictional production history, but then i noticed the entire rest of the post that went ignoredPlastic_Gargoyle posted:Also, the upside down shield is really, really dumb and I don't know why they kept that in. on the last two points, i'd say i like the additional context on char and how that reflects on his actions in the original story. it doesn't really recontextualize things too much or become necessary viewing, because the show it's a "prequel" to is already a complete, self contained show from several decades prior. imo if you're watching the origin it's because you wanted to get some juicy drama in, otherwise ask yourself why you're watching a prequel if you aren't already sold on the concept of prequels. and the origin does a good job of delivering on juicy drama concerning characters i'm already familiar with in a slightly different context than usual. char specifically i really don't mind forrest gumping his way through the UC as he's already established as a skilled war vet and ace despite his young age, and is secretly a prince. important stuff happening around him seems expected to me, but i can see how it might rub someone the wrong way. it'd probably bother me a lot more if it was like, amuro instead of char. i'm not entirely sure what is being referred to by goofy 70s stuff but off the cuff i'm going to say it was probably really good and there should have been more of it, goofy 70s stuff certainly sounds like something i'd want more of out of the origin. ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Apr 20, 2022 |
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Apr 20, 2022 05:57
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Motto posted:regardless of it getting crowbarred in via animation, the origin was conceived as its own thing and isn't meant to inform or retcon the original animated setting. and yeah, the gundam is still important because the feds early efforts get completely dusted in the prototyping phase and the the "guntanks" that predate white base's are basically in the tier of the mobile workers that would inspire mobile suits proper. Yeah origin-wise the gundam is important because it's the first Actual Mobile Suit, the guntank(and early guncannons) are more extensions of tanks than anything. The gundam is an actual bipedal war machine rather than "tank with arms" and "tank with legs" It's a fairly logical flow of tech development imo, the feds kept trying to do SOMETHING with their tank fetish until it became undeniable that it wasn't working. e: hell even the Gundam rolls out with a weird shoulder-cannon at first
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Apr 20, 2022 12:03
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I just like The Origin's progression of technology a little better. It massages the suspension of disbelief one way (giving some lovely forerunners to the actual Gundam, and failed attempts to try to emulate the Zaku, rather than just going straight to prototyping a super unit) while sacrificing some in the other direction (reducing the tech disparity between Zeon and Feddies makes their early overwhelming success a little less plausible)
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Apr 20, 2022 12:37
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There’s a lot of disparaging of the Guntank going on in this thread and it is extremely upsetting. The movies replacing the Guntank with another Guncannon was when the franchise started to go downhill.
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Apr 20, 2022 13:06
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Cleretic posted:Because it's the first one that doesn't suck? I mean, even in 0079 the Guntank and Guncannon were there, they were just pretty terrible. I resent that; the Guntank is pretty limited and honestly, Hayato probably deserves some credit for carrying it through the entire show, but the Guncannon is a good unit and both Kai and, on one occasion, Amuro, demonstrate that. It's basically just a slightly less agile Gundam with somewhat heavier armor and two big cannons. Which is a good recipe, and superior to all of Zeon's One Year War units, bar maybe the Gelgoog. chiasaur11 posted:Especially when the Guncannon and the Guntank are explicitly predecessors to the Gundam... only they get deployed at the same time for the first time, or even after the Gundam. They're not explicitly predecessors though, and both are designed at the same time as part of Project V. The entire reason the project used a core fighter going off the original show is not "to get battle data" as databooks and so on have built up over the years, it was to allow the pilot adaptability, meaning they could choose to switch on the fly to a Guntank (slower, but bigger guns), a Guncannon (mid point) or Gundam (agile but with less powerful weapons) to suit the situation. This was a toyetic thing Tomino wasn't too happy with, so he minimized it's inclusion in the original show as much as he could, but there's still some elements of it and Amuro uses the Guntank once because it's better for taking out static targets like buildings, and we also get things like Char freaking out because Garma has just told him the core fighter can switch units and Char realizes he knows less than he thought about the unit and it's full capabilities. gimme the GOD drat candy posted:zeon's alarming, unprecedented success at the beginning of the oyw doesn't make sense if it was ms vs. ms. guntanks vs. zakus is a much smaller gap than balls vs. zakus. It wasn't Zakus vs Balls at the beginning of the war, because the Federation didn't start using Balls until the mid to late point of the war. They're not introduced into the original show until Solomon (episode 35) i.e. after the GM. Which debuted at Jaburo (episode 29). The Ball has since been retconned to have debuted earlier, alongside the GM, since they pop up around the time of Odessa in things like MS IGLOO. They've never been depicted as a pre or early war unit though, and instead are a relatively cheap stopgap unit the Federation used to fill out their lines alongside the GM. The Federation was fielding planes like the Tin Cod and Saberfish in space and tanks and planes on Earth during the early part of the war, not Balls. Motto posted:regardless of it getting crowbarred in via animation, the origin was conceived as its own thing and isn't meant to inform or retcon the original animated setting. and yeah, the gundam is still important because the feds early efforts get completely dusted in the prototyping phase and the the "guntanks" that predate white base's are basically in the tier of the mobile workers that would inspire mobile suits proper. The Origin isn't getting crowbarred in, because it's always listed as it's own thing in timelines and has it's own separate gunpla line rather than being advertised alongside normal UC stuff. It appears from interviews with production staff on The Origin and Thunderbolt they weren't sure about Banrise's intentions when making them, so they hedged their bets and made a product that could be canon if Sunrise wanted, but didn't have to be. And they don't appear to want to, at least for now, going off how they advertise it in various ways. chiasaur11 posted:Guntanks, meanwhile, are expensive, in addition to being ground only, slow, and unable to use AMBAC. Guntanks definitely can use AMBAC, because they have arms. Which means they have at least as much AMBAC capacity as a Ball. More really, because their arms are relatively bigger, compared to their size. Not that I think animation gives two shits about AMBAC in the first place, but if AMBAC is a thing, then a Guntank can absolutely take as much advantage of it as a Ball. We also see the Guntank in space during the original show, so no, it's not ground only. Blaze Dragon posted:A Ball destroyed three Rick Doms. Sure, it was piloted by a Newtype, but I'm not sure if I can say the same about the Guntank. Hayato definitely takes out at least two Rick Doms at once at A Baoa Qu in one of the few scenes we get of it in action during that battle in the TV show, but it's implied he took out the 3 attacking him at once even if we only see 2 of them destroyed on screen. Yinlock posted:Yeah origin-wise the gundam is important because it's the first Actual Mobile Suit, the guntank(and early guncannons) are more extensions of tanks than anything. The gundam is an actual bipedal war machine rather than "tank with arms" and "tank with legs" I'd argue that the Federation should have more of a plane fetish than a tank fetish, in the first place. Sure, they had the Guntank in the original, but they also had the core fighter/booster, and one of the few non-mobile suit units we see the Federation field during the show outside huge battles (that have both planes and tanks) is planes like the Fly Manta and Fly Arrow. There are the occasional tanks in the background of shots, but we do see planes actually used a little in the original show. Ryu is also stated to be a trained fighter pilot, and not a trained tank pilot. Which makes more sense, given he's in space; but then, so are most of the Federation's forces, even pre-One Year War. I don't even think it's a good argument that units like the Guntank and Guncannon are extensions of tanks, because (keeping in mind all 3 were originally developed together), to a large degree the Guncannon and especially the Gundam are more of a plane than a tank. Hence, presumably, why they all have a plane at their core and share controls with planes because of it. tsob fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Apr 20, 2022 |
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Apr 20, 2022 13:52
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I just finished 08th MS Team. It almost seems like the last episode was something produced years later by another company. It just feels so different. I'm trying to watch more of the UC series. So far I've knocked out 0079, Zeta, and now 08th. Is ZZ streaming anywhere?
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Apr 20, 2022 14:48
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Doesn't look like it!
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Apr 20, 2022 14:58
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well drat
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Apr 20, 2022 16:09
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I'd place the Rick Dom above the Guncannon. Less firepower (although there's plenty of room for expansion), but it's got better armour, it's better in close quarters, and it's faster and more agile on the ground and in space. It really is an excellent suit, just not excellent enough to make up for Zeon's horrific disadvantages in manpower and resources. It's capable for fighting on equal or better terms with any Federation mobile suit, but they needed something that was an even match for entire platoons of GMs on its own.
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Apr 20, 2022 17:04
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I've voiced the opinion before, but I'll repeat that I think the Dom, and by extension, the Rick Dom, are pretty woefully designed suits. The Dom is a very quick unit, but it doesn't have great weaponry once it does close the distance and it's only real melee weapon is the heat saber. It's only other proper weapon full stop is the giant bazooka, which is just too big and too obvious in it's target/intention to be much of a threat. I'm pretty sure the only time a Dom has ever been portrayed scoring a kill with it's giant bazooka is in an episode of 0083, and it had to literally press the muzzle against a suit to do even that. It doesn't score a single kill in the original show. It'd be great against ships or static targets, but it's basically worthless in mobile suit on mobile suit combat. Which is where the Dom and Rick Dom are supposed to be used. The Dom and Rick Dom are designs that desperately need some kind of quick fire weapon; which is presumably why pretty much every other iteration of the Dom post One Year War gives it a machine gun of some description. Also, I don't know about the Guncannon having worse armor; Kai takes a hit from a Dom's giant bazooka to the chest without any damage at one point. So it must have pretty significant armor. It's damaged by the giant bazooka hitting a limb, if I recall, so it's not that thick everywhere, but it's pretty heavily armored where it's most needed at the least. tsob fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Apr 20, 2022 |
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Apr 20, 2022 17:15
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Pfft, ditch the suit. All you need is to duct tape three Rick Dom reactors together and you can power a beam weapon strong enough to crack planetary crust.
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Apr 20, 2022 17:15
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I wonder why the dom is generally considered a good suit in universe
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Apr 20, 2022 18:58
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It's in the name.
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Apr 20, 2022 19:02
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ninjewtsu posted:I wonder why the dom is generally considered a good suit in universe It's probably for the same reason a thing can be considered bad in universe, but leave the audience thinking it's good. Like, a central conceit of Mobile Suit Gundam is that mobile suits are just plain superior to planes, but Sayla and Sleggar kick Zeon's rear end till it's several shades of blue in the G-Fighter and Core Booster; which are essentially just planes, and it leaves me wondering "why are mobile suits considered the be-all, end-all of combat again?" any time I think about it. Or possibly it's because the alternative is a Zaku II, and even a Dom is better than a Zaku II for the most part. At least until Gelgoogs are produced in better numbers so you have some bit of choice. Which basically never happens in the One Year War. tsob fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Apr 20, 2022 |
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Apr 20, 2022 19:08
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In terms of Mobile Suits not taking weapons or piloting ability into account. It's roughly Guntank, Guncannon, Zaku II, Gouf, Dom, GM = Rick Dom (Rick Dom is faster but not as maneuverable), Gundam, Gelgoog.
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Apr 20, 2022 19:25
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Wait...why are you taking weapons out of the consideration? Like, what are you actually considering at that point? Armor, power generation and speed? How does the Zaku II rank above the Guncannon even with that caveat, given the Guncannon is at least as fast as a Zaku II, has luna titanium armor, and has a demonstrably more powerful reactor given it can power beam weapons. There are several placements I don't agree with on that list, but the Guncannon's placement is just plain weird to me. What part of the Zaku II is actually superior to the Guncannon?
tsob fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Apr 20, 2022 |
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Apr 20, 2022 19:39
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guncannon seems better than it is thanks to kai. same deal with the gundam, really.
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Apr 20, 2022 19:49
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:guncannon seems better than it is thanks to kai. same deal with the gundam, really. Yeah, being around Kai does make the Gundam look cooler.
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Apr 20, 2022 19:51
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ninjewtsu posted:I wonder why the dom is generally considered a good suit in universe it's rocket glide ability and huge bazooka means it's not completely useless until long after the gryps conflict. look at what rommel is able to do in ZZ gundam with zero logistical support
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Apr 20, 2022 19:59
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The Dom has the power of family.
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Apr 20, 2022 20:03
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