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Mr. Humalong posted:We often discuss how poorly elements of the show have aged and how direly under-utilized a lot of characters were (Jenny Calendar, Mr. Trick, Oz, i agree with a lot of this. lorne is woven into the show way better before he becomes a main cast member, because at that point the show has shrunk to have a very small world and he doesn't have his demon bar, so he's just sort of hanging around. they keep getting rid of all the characters who widen the world in angel, for some reason, and focus on silly nonsense like fred, who i wish never joined the show really. willow's change mostly happened in s5 i think. they were planting seeds since all the way back in s2 but there comes a point where her arrogance is no longer an endearing contrast to her usual kindness and the kindness starts to feel fake. goes along with her friendships fading into the background of the show.
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Apr 12, 2022 14:09
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To be fair, kindness and friendship are really lame and boring activities compared to doing magic. If I hate magic power I'd just use the magic to make kindness spells and magic friends.
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Apr 12, 2022 16:30
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Woah what is this Fred slander. Fred owns. Except for KARRUMPTION. That poo poo can die in a fire. But Lorne also did that so it's not a Fred exclusive problem.
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Apr 12, 2022 16:35
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Oh I guess I should share my own history with the shows, too. My first exposure to Buffy was Marco in the Animorphs books talking about how he taped every episode, but I was 7 or 8 and too young to really be allowed to watch TV shows that weren't Nick, Jr. The first episode of Buffy I ever saw was "Once More" which, uh, is definitely an interesting first episode. After that I got to watch a few episodes of season 6 as they aired, but I had to record them because I went to my dad's on Tuesday nights and his new wife definitely would not allow that show in her house. Then "Seeing Red" aired and a friend of my mom's warned her about it and I wasn't allowed to watch the show any more. I ended up getting the DVD sets slowly from like 2002-2004 (after that same friend of my mom's assured her the earlier seasons did not include attempted rape) and watching the entire show that way. I didn't watch Angel until later on when I think I found the first two seasons sold as a bundle at Ross or somewhere you wouldn't expect to find DVDs of a cult show from the early 2000s. I've watched through Buffy in its entirety probably 4 times now in my life. At 13, 18, 22, and now at 30-31. At 13 I thought Xander was the coolest and wanted to be like him, at 18 I desperately hoped I was nothing like him, and at 22 I realized I was floating from dead end to dead end like he did in season 4. I got to avoid perpetuating most of the sexism he was written to spew, at least. My Buffy ranking is 3>2>4>5>1>7>6, but I have an extreme soft spot for season 1. They were the only DVDs I had for about a year and I wore them out. Angel I've only watched all the way through twice and I'm working on the third. I am solidly in the camp of "5 is the best, 1 and 2 are fine, 3 and 4 have good moments but a lot of bad." I hate Connor's character, I hated Justine, Holtz was superbly acted but kind of flat as a character, I thought Kate was a wet blanket most of the times she showed up and then she just kind of disappeared (I know her actress got a role on Law and Order). Wow they really liked getting rid of secondary characters on Angel. I could ramble on about these shows for way too long so I'll stop here for now.
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Apr 12, 2022 22:21
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RIP Merl. And to wherever the Groosalug went I hope it was ok.
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Apr 13, 2022 05:00
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"Buffy vs. Dracula" i will never forget the blank incomprehension I felt at the end of this episode my first time seeing it via FX rerun. I was all "what the flying gently caress did I miss? Did they skip episodes?!" I had no internet at the time, I couldn't just hop on Google or Reddit and ask people about this "sister" who just appeared. But other than that fond memory, this episode blew. It's like a bad self-parody. For a jokey episode, none of the jokes really landed for me. About all I can take away from it is Giles and Buffy being great. I had forgotten Dawn had a crush on Xander in S5. I guess there is at least a vague precedent for her hooking up with Xander in thc comics. Still dumb but not as out of left field as I thought. Granted, she had a crush on Spike next season, I remember that. I'm also pretty sure she has one of her legit awesome moments in S7 when she threatens Spike because of what he did to Buffy. "No Place Like Home" Oh man, Joyce is getting worse. Every time I see it I get this sick lurching feeling in my stomach. The debut of my favorite Big Bad, and what a debut it was. Dawn's identity revealed and I think it's from here Buffy and Dawn's relationship gets so much more heartwarming.
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Apr 21, 2022 10:11
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I recall thinking that Xander mouthing off to Dracula and immediately getting Renfielded was funny.
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Apr 21, 2022 10:32
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NikkolasKing posted:"Buffy vs. Dracula" Dawn's crush on Spike is in S5 also, it's all pretty minor stuff. She does become a lot better after S5, once the whole key and extreme teen angst thing is out of the way. S5 is depressing. It was maybe my favourite when I was younger, I like Glory as a villain and it's consistent in terms of episode quality. There aren't many stinkers along the way, just one or two, but Buffy just gets pummelled with bad news all season and I think it's probably more depressing than S6 because even though s6 is 'dark!!', the problems are basically young adult problems which can and will be overcome with time. S5 is alot more well, life for Buffy is just going to be poo poo now. Fun's over. As for Buffy vs Dracula - I think it's a decent episode, and a good idea, but yeah probably not as funny as it could have been. The guy they got to play Dracula doesn't work for me. You know the episode 'superstar' with johnathan - I get the impression people don't know what to make of it, or think it's a weird episode, when it's another obvious spoof. It's not exactly the same thing as Buffy vs Dracula but I think it's a more successful show making fun of itself sort of episode. Better comedy throughout, since the joke is just that everyone is mostly the same except Jonathan is the main character.
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Apr 21, 2022 13:44
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NikkolasKing posted:I had forgotten Dawn had a crush on Xander in S5. I guess there is at least a vague precedent for her hooking up with Xander in thc comics. Still dumb but not as out of left field as I thought. There's a few more scenes I can name off hand that contribute to the idea. The best of which is after Dawn mistakenly believes she's one of the potential Slayers, but it's really the other girl. "You're not special. You're extraordinary." Then there's the stuff that's less heartwarming. The way Xander's jaw drops seeing her dance before he realizes who it is (maybe you should stop hanging out at the club that lets in highschoolers, dude), being a little upset by her crushing on the guy with the jacket in Him. And then there's stuff that doesn't scan as meaningful at first but makes sense if you know what happens. When he's staring at Anya, doing her money dance next to Dawn, and whispers, "I'm going to marry that girl," Buffy initially misinterprets him as referring to Dawn. Buffy is, coincidentally, a known clairvoyant. Then there's the whole scene where Buffy orders him to kidnap her and bring her to safety and she nonchalantly stuns him, grabs the wheel, and heads right back home. I mean, that's not really pertinent as evidence, but it made me crush on Dawn a little, and Xander was actually there. She really is consistently one of the best parts of season 7. Not sure if I will ever bother with comics, I don't really have a horse in that race, but knowing that it's a thing that happens, well, it doesn't feel too shocking.
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Apr 22, 2022 00:31
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Veryslightlymad posted:I'll approach this from the angle of someone who never read the comics. Very true. Centaur Dawn in the comics is way more absurd than this now I am reminded of all these facts which had completely slipped my mind. "Fool for Love" I think maybe Spike is simply a victim of inconsistent writing or contrasting interpretations by writers. The one here who sees Buffy crying and comforts her but not in an overly forceful or sexual way, the intentional "you're beneath me" between the girl William liked and Buffy, all points to having our hearts bleed for him But they shouldn't. The reason Buffy says he's beneath her is because he's a murderer. He's still the ame person he was when he killed a bunch of people and he still relishes it in this very episode. I dunno, maybe he's just too comple a character for my brain to process but it really does feel like there's a tug of war between" feel bad for Spike" and "he's a monster." And I know for a fact some writers did think Soulless Spike was 100% evil - I got some quotes on it in one of my Buffy books where it was brought up discussing the aftermath of Seeing Red. (it was nuclear, apparently) And very next episode our first shock of Spike is him sniffing her sweater and being a manipulative shitbag to Riley. "I was with her last night, I know about her mom being sick, why didn't she tell you?" Riley gets a lot of poo poo from the fandom but I made a post on r/Buffy a few weeks away about how he's easily the least manipulative of the Scoobies unless we count Dawn. "Into the Woods" And thee goes Riley.. Am I crazy or does he come back at least once and he's engaged with someone? I jus want the poor plain ol' white meat babyface of the Buffyverse to have a happy ending. But man, roomtone definitely have a point about S5 being depressing as hell. The Dawn reveal, her mom with a brain tumor, Riley leaving, and then there's "The Body" - this is the kind of thing which destroyed our girl in Becoming Pt 2. I still remember S6 being sadder though because everyone is imploding and falling apart in that season. Absolutely everyone. On the bright side, Xander earned a lot of respect from me for this actions in this episode. Overall he's been excellent this season. Also Ben is a character who doesn't get brought up much in my experience. His actor is really good I think and I remember enjoying his dynamic with Dawn. They are after all both just people, good people trying to live their own lives, but their proximity to her makes that all but impossible. Ben hasn't done much yet where I'm at, just thought I'd leave this little comment to see what others thought.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:42
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xander finally became good. working on himself, no major judgmental or jealous episodes for a whole year. he's downright likeable. even though i think he misread the buffy/riley relationship, because he probably understood riley's insecurity having been there himself, he confronted buffy about it in a good way - not judging her, just saying that even if you're angry right now, he'll be gone forever if you don't go now so make sure you know what you want. then his scene with anya at the end is one of his best moments. i think xander's likeability is directly linked with how long his hair is, over the course of the show. shame he got it so short for s6. and yeah riley shows up again.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:04
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Ben is by far the worst of all of Buffy's love interests.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:09
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As I see it Spike loves Buffy, and he wants to be a good person for her sake. And because of his unique turn as a vampire he is able to come close. But he is still lacking a soul, and no matter how hard he may try he can't break free from his nature. It also makes sense that his character is a bit inconsistent. with all the different writers on the show, and I doubt Whedon or anyone else ever sat down and thought about how exactly he works. NikkolasKing posted:Riley gets a lot of poo poo from the fandom but I made a post on r/Buffy a few weeks away about how he's easily the least manipulative of the Scoobies unless we count Dawn. I think that is pretty normal, fandom or at least the vocal part never likes the vanilla relationships, Riley is underrated and for sure the best option for anyone wanting a serious relationship. But he's not exactly Spike or Angel. It's like Veronica Mars, who ships her with Piz even though he is the sensible option?
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Apr 22, 2022 17:27
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Oasx posted:As I see it Spike loves Buffy, and he wants to be a good person for her sake. And because of his unique turn as a vampire he is able to come close. But he is still lacking a soul, and no matter how hard he may try he can't break free from his nature. I never shipped Veronica with Piz. I shipped her with Mac because I'm a weird slashy weirdo.
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Apr 22, 2022 18:51
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Everyone posted:I never shipped Veronica with Piz. I shipped her with Mac because I'm a weird slashy weirdo. Nobody shipped Veronica with Piz.
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Apr 22, 2022 19:35
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Oasx posted:As I see it Spike loves Buffy, and he wants to be a good person for her sake. And because of his unique turn as a vampire he is able to come close. But he is still lacking a soul, and no matter how hard he may try he can't break free from his nature. I dunno. The kind of guy who cheats on you with vampire whores, then sets an ultimatum for you instead of, I dunno, APOLOGIZING on bended knee isn't a good choice either. I just can't think of Riley as a nice guy. That sort of thing is really lovely to do and risky, considering he could have been turned and then Buffy would have had to stake him, if lucky, or if not, she would have invited him into her home and he may have killed Dawn or her.
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Apr 22, 2022 21:16
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NikkolasKing posted:"Fool for Love" I think this was around the time he was saying he'd changed and a part of me often wonders how different it would have been had Buffy given him a chance. I know she can't because then it flies into the logic of the show. Vampires with no soul = BAD, must be staked and Joss was quite clear in Seeing Red that in his mythos, this sticks no matter what. But the inconsistent writing really does make the think... had he had Buffy guiding him positively, wouldn't it have worked? I mean, in the comics, he loses his soul for a bit and is still doing good and still accepts it back instead of just saying deuces and being a prick again. I want to hear about the aftermath of Seeing Red.
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Apr 22, 2022 21:22
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Pan Dulce posted:I mean, in the comics, he loses his soul for a bit and is still doing good and still accepts it back instead of just saying deuces and being a prick again. sounded interesting so i looked up spike comic lose soul and found a series all about him quote:On his own adventure, Spike is forced to examine the man he once was, the man he is now, and the man he still hopes to become. As master of a steampunk ship filled with loyal, oversized alien cockroaches, Spike embarks on a journey to the dark side of the moon roomtone fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 21:44
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That's funny but what is the real comic about? Oh no
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Apr 22, 2022 22:23
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Yeah... I never said they were GOOD.
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Apr 22, 2022 22:28
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Pan Dulce posted:I think this was around the time he was saying he'd changed and a part of me often wonders how different it would have been had Buffy given him a chance. I know she can't because then it flies into the logic of the show. Vampires with no soul = BAD, must be staked and Joss was quite clear in Seeing Red that in his mythos, this sticks no matter what. But the inconsistent writing really does make the think... had he had Buffy guiding him positively, wouldn't it have worked? I mean, in the comics, he loses his soul for a bit and is still doing good and still accepts it back instead of just saying deuces and being a prick again. There's probably more but this was what I read a week or two ago in a chapter on the soul in Buffy quote:On May 7, 2002, the Buffy episode titled "Seeing Red" aired on the UPN network. In this episode - as anyone familiar with the Buffy series will certainly tainly recall - Spike attempted to rape Buffy on the floor of her bathroom. The reaction among viewers was immediate and (rightfully) intense; fans discussed the episode on-line at length, voicing opinions and reactions which ran the gamut from absolute condemnation of Spike to sympathetic defense of him, with some surprisingly harsh criticisms of the Slayer herself sprinkled in as well. I can't find it now but I'm positive there's a comment somewhere in this book or my other one about Spike being evil by one of the writers themselves..... Oh well. People are of course allowed to interpret art however they please, but it is helpful to know the intent of the writers.
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Apr 22, 2022 23:42
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Pan Dulce posted:I think this was around the time he was saying he'd changed and a part of me often wonders how different it would have been had Buffy given him a chance. I know she can't because then it flies into the logic of the show. Vampires with no soul = BAD, must be staked and Joss was quite clear in Seeing Red that in his mythos, this sticks no matter what. But the inconsistent writing really does make the think... had he had Buffy guiding him positively, wouldn't it have worked? I mean, in the comics, he loses his soul for a bit and is still doing good and still accepts it back instead of just saying deuces and being a prick again. Not well enough. Thinking it through Spike (and really all soulless vampires) is a being with a kind of "reversed conscience." He doesn't feel good when he does good. He doesn't get a warm fuzzy when being kind. If anything it likely feels wrong to him, maybe like someone might feel in having sex outside their sexual orientation. He can push himself to do it, but it's not something that will ever come naturally to him. He enjoys causing pain and fear. It's why he was so pleased in Season 4 that he could hurt demons, because he finally got be the vicious predator that he was supposed to be again after the Initiative neutered him with the chip. That all said, one big difference between Spike and almost all other vampires is that he spent a good while building relationships with humans without using them as prey due to the chip. So he gets an indirect enjoyment from helping these specific people to some degree. In the end though, he's still a monster, still a demon, which is why he eventually attempts to rape Buffy. In the aftermath of that because he values what he gained from his relationship with the Scooby Gang and Buffy, he decides to change himself on an elemental level. He seeks out the restoration of his soul so he can actually feel and return kindness and affection.
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Apr 22, 2022 23:57
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I think the attempted rape was a mistake to include in the show because you shouldn't spend 2 seasons developing someone as the male lead and 90% of the audience's favourite character, portray them as emotionally insightful, increasingly considerate, and then nuke the character because you want to re-establish what by that point in the show is completely muddled lore about what having no soul means. The way it continues on, with Spike essentially becoming someone else in lore terms (since every other vampire is a different person with vs without a soul), doesn't retroactively justify it being there. For all purposes, the Spike in S7 did not try to rape Buffy. But they try to have their cake and eat it by also making the Spike in S7 almost exactly the same character as he was before, just 'good' now, slate wiped clean. That's not dealing with the consequences of sexual assault, it's papering them over. So it doesn't even work on its own terms. So they ruin a character who is doing a lot to keep the show alive, by going way too far to make a dumb point, and then use magic to avoid dealing with it. Not good stuff. I don't blame people for mostly choosing to ignore it. And I like s6. I just don't like this bit. roomtone fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 06:42
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Man, I dunno, Spike spends a huge amount of Season 6 being depicted as a hugely toxic piece of poo poo. He's a liar, he's controlling, he undermines Buffy's interests. I don't doubt that he loves her, and he thinks he can support her, but his love is a possessive toxic love. Dead Things, Smashed, Older and Further Away, As You Were... his behaviour is a consistent thread throughout the season. Seeing Red doesn't come out of nowhere. That people like this are lovable, and audiences can forgive this behaviour -- I get it, but in the end the signs were there.
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Apr 23, 2022 07:43
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Personally I think the signs were all there where I'm at in Season 5.
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Apr 23, 2022 07:56
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NikkolasKing posted:Personally I think the signs were all there where I'm at in Season 5. His treatment of Harmony? Yeah, absolutely.
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Apr 23, 2022 08:04
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yeah I thought about that - he does have some episodes of total sleaze in s6. i did basically say his development in s5 and 6 was consistently towards being good but yeah, it's not true. i do selectively forget certain bits at times, and have watched smashed/wrecked maybe twice maximum because i hate the willow crap in those. in s5 he's still trying to get the chip out, then kidnapping a bunch of women to make them love him, but he develops after that. after Crush (5x14) to once more with feeling, he's almost entirely heroic and decent, if you can forgive the robot thing. then from smashed to dead things they go toxic with him for a bit, but it's still evened out by self-awareness and at least attempting to respect boundaries. buffy dumps him and he's nice again for a while. his crimes and bad behaviour are getting less and less severe, his good side coming out more frequently. it's a bumpy road but it feels worth following. then, rapist. there's a lot of veering left and right with spike because the writers didn't agree, maybe even with themselves, on whether he was at core a piece of poo poo. considering where he started in s2, or even s4 when he joins the main cast, the trend is obviously towards being a good person. that's what the audience was responding to. in seeing red they snapped way too hard back the other way and crashed. the way the real world was, is, you can't just make the fan favourite a rapist and expect people to still be invested. killing people, etc, whatever, in genre fiction you can move on from that - but sexual assault is one thing which you should just stay away from without a really good reason and i don't think they had one other than to hammer in that all that good guy stuff was manipulation (even when buffy was dead, or when he protected dawn from glory, left flowers for joyce with no card etc?) because he's a vampire. your fault for liking the guy we told you to like, audience. like i said there's a version of this which deals with it afterwards, because if you insist on getting REAL with things, rapists aren't demons, they're people. the soul thing is irrelevant. i don't think that would good entertainment in this context, but it would at least be a commitment to the character. instead they purify him with a soul, so you/the show can say he's not responsible because there's room for that opinion in the lore, and they want to salvage spike because he's so popular. i'm not saying the attempted rape is out of character for spike, you can go along and point to various less severe precedents, but that he was a major project of character development which this takes a big poo poo on. yeah he continues to be lovely at times, maybe he WOULD do this, but it's making a character specifically a rapist, especially after so much rehab already, is a hard red line which i don't think was good for the show and was totally unnecessary. so it ends up sort of pointless, for how much damage it does. spike could've been prompted to go and get a soul for any number of reasons but they went with the thing that will repulse most of his fanbase. it feels stubborn and nasty. would've shortened this, it's rambling, but i got to go roomtone fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 08:06
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Somewhat surprised no one mentioned it yet, but that episode really hosed with James. He's talked about curling up in the fetal position between takes, or about when he was getting ready to do that scene, he got so tensed up that he audibly popped an old whiplash injury and collapsed. He says that it serves a narrative purpose and defends it on those grounds, but I generally get the feeling that he needs to believe that to justify going through it. So. The writers were divided on it, with quite a few hating it, it seriously hosed up one of the performers involved, the fans hated it---seems like maybe it wasn't the best idea, but what the gently caress do I know.
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Apr 25, 2022 02:51
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roomtone posted:in s5 he's still trying to get the chip out, then kidnapping a bunch of women to make them love him, but he develops after that. after Crush (5x14) to once more with feeling, he's almost entirely heroic and decent, if you can forgive the robot thing. then from smashed to dead things they go toxic with him for a bit, but it's still evened out by self-awareness and at least attempting to respect boundaries. buffy dumps him and he's nice again for a while. his crimes and bad behaviour are getting less and less severe, his good side coming out more frequently. it's a bumpy road but it feels worth following. then, rapist. Even after Dead Things, you've got Spike being a WMD trader in As You Were, and his attempts to split Buffy off from the group so he can continue to isolate her in Older And Far Away, low key attempts to get Buffy jealous in Hell's Bells... Because, you know, it's a plot about dating a dude who's super charming and sometimes really great, but sometimes also a total piece of poo poo -- and it's about how even though he can be super nice sometimes it doesn't really stop the fact that he's a bad guy with a long, long history of treating women really really badly. Making an audience like the character and want to believe that he can change is part of that seduction; it puts you in Buffy's shoes. But it still speaks to, IMO, a fundamental truth about life: don't date chronic abusers, and don't trust people whose change is predicated on maintaining your love -- that's a deeply conditional love. They're essentially saying that they'll be a good person because you love them, as long as you love them.
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Apr 25, 2022 07:27
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i don't disagree with your main point. some stuff i don't think is quite right - his deal with the demon eggs has nothing to do with buffy, and him showing up at the wedding to see if she gets jealous doesn't read as toxic to me because they actually have a good conversation about it for once where they laugh and move on. it's petty, pretty sad, but i don't think it's a real attempt at manipulation like he was doing before. i think they intentionally tone down his manipulation just for the rug pull effect in seeing red. but that's all just detail, in general yes they do put spike in the role of bad boyfriend in season 6. that's his main purpose for the bulk of the season. he's kind to her one minute then trying to manipulate her the next. it means they need to have him regress from the back half of s5 and early s6, but people do regress so it's not a problem, like i said i mostly enjoy s6. spike was good before this because he believed he never had a chance so there was no point in trying to manipulate her. once he knows he does have a chance, after once more with feeling, his worst instincts start coming out all over the place to keep that chance alive, and that's what kills it. it's really just specifically the attempted rape that i don't think they should have put in there. it's too ugly, in a season which already has plenty ugly, even though it is something he would plausibly do. they could've done something else, that's all. roomtone fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 08:26
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Remember when he played poker with demons but with kittens instead of money
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Apr 25, 2022 08:44
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Dawgstar posted:Nobody shipped Veronica with Piz. I didn't so much ship Veronica with Piz and I didn't like the Veronica/Logan relationship. And I do think the movie did Piz dirty, though not as dirty as what the Hulu season did to Logan.
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Apr 25, 2022 16:21
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Veronica Mars is one of those shows which gets compared with Buffy semi frequently but I never watched it and know nothing about it.
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Apr 25, 2022 17:18
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NikkolasKing posted:Veronica Mars is one of those shows which gets compared with Buffy semi frequently but I never watched it and know nothing about it. Veronica Mars is very good, you should give it a shot.
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Apr 25, 2022 17:30
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NikkolasKing posted:Veronica Mars is one of those shows which gets compared with Buffy semi frequently but I never watched it and know nothing about it. While there are obviously differences, it's also definitely fair to say that VM was a spiritual successor to Buffy. Whedon was so enamored with VM that he even made a guest appearance in the second season. Plus, Jenny Owen Youngs hosted a recap podcast about both of them!
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Apr 25, 2022 17:40
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I started watching VM because Joss Whedon called it the best show on tv, before that I thought the concept sounded lame.
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Apr 25, 2022 17:56
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NikkolasKing posted:Veronica Mars is one of those shows which gets compared with Buffy semi frequently but I never watched it and know nothing about it. It makes sense people say that, though they're extremely different genres. VM is a detective noir without any supernatural or scifi elements, but it centers a precocious blonde teenager in a small CA town trying to juggle a normal HS life with a dangerous secondary career. Also with lots of self-aware, genre-savvy humor. I'd elevator-pitch it as, "what if BtVS was actually Brick?"
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Apr 26, 2022 01:22
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So I got into this show last year, on season 6 now. I knew a lot of the discourse around it, but I'm honestly kind of shocked that even in the day people didn't recognize Xander was one of the most vile people on the show, and I'm not even talking about the more 'subtle' toxic nice guy poo poo. The whole stuff with Angel. Like the dude literally condemns an innocent man to Hell because he's jealous of them. Holy loving poo poo *what*. Unless I'm misremembering that second season finale, he deliberately withholds from Buffy that Willow has a plan to save Angel and stop the portal and that Buffy just needs to stall and instead tells Buffy that Willow said to gently caress him up and forces Buffy to kill the man she loves and drat an innocent person to Hell. Like holy loving poo poo what. Like even by the standards of the 90s this feels wildly beyond the pall hosed up.
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Apr 26, 2022 01:38
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NikkolasKing posted:Veronica Mars is one of those shows which gets compared with Buffy semi frequently but I never watched it and know nothing about it. I highly recommend you watch it. And talk about it. Here. In TV IV.
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Apr 26, 2022 02:25
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I wil def check it out sometime. Right now though I just ordered all of Xena on DVD because I was looking at it and the person who sold it made me a special offer and I'm one of those "oh poo poo it's a deal/sale, I HAVE to buy it now!" people.
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Apr 26, 2022 06:33
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