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I think violence is a part of our nature but those we aim it at is absolutely cultural. There's little difference in the argument for the corrective nature of violence against children than there is against women and 70 years ago it was very much normalised. We should be more like our cousins the Chimpanzee who aim their violence upwards and eat their leaders when they act the oval office.
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Apr 21, 2022 16:45
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Guavanaut posted:I'm going to seize all their noses. Seize the means of olfaction! ThomasPaine posted:Come on now I'm obviously talking about interpersonal behaviour, which is absolutely not fixed and is far more influenced by environment than biology. Well certainly, but i guess my point (if I had one) is that "biology has no influence on interpersonal behavior and societal structures" is almost as extreme and insane a position as the  people. The answer, as always, is 
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Apr 21, 2022 16:46
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Like Hot Chip said:quote:we are a violent race But that doesn't mean you have to smack kids cause that's just oval office behavior tbf
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Apr 21, 2022 16:47
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OwlFancier posted:Even then I don't think the violence would be instructive, forcing someone to stop doing something isn't the same as teaching them. I think my worry is that class enemies can't be 'taught', because they know exactly what they're doing and they don't care. So what other option is there?
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Apr 21, 2022 16:49
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Whether or not we have a "natural" urge or drive to physically chastise children is fundamental irrelevant to whether it's a moral way of raising them. The entire arguement is so fundamentally flawed that there's a formal logical fallacy named after the root of the arguement, the naturalistic fallacy. Like, I have a natural urge to hurt if someone cuts me off in traffic, but I don't act on it because that would be stupid and act as the foundation for a brutish and violent society.
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Apr 21, 2022 16:49
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ThomasPaine posted:I think my worry is that class enemies can't be 'taught', because they know exactly what they're doing and they don't care. So what other option is there? Forcing people to stop doing things because you don't have the ability to teach them to stop doing it of their own volition is still a valid option, to clarify.
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Apr 21, 2022 16:51
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Camrath posted:I was smacked by my dad when I did something particularly ‘naughty’. I don’t really bear him any ill will over it, and he’s very much of a different generation- he was a prefect and caned younger boys at school for example. Last time I can remember it happening was when I was seven and had amused myself while doing homework by stabbing my pencil multiple times quite deeply into the surface of the kitchen table. He smacked me six times, I cried and sure as poo poo didn’t do it again. Oh God my mum became a total hellbitch when menopause hit. Of course we didn't realize that was what was going on as kids but as an adult I finally twigged. She wasn't physically abusive to us * (except her and my sister used to have stand up fights that my dad and I would have to physically tear them apart but quite frankly my sister as a teenager was completely obnoxious and would provoke and provoke and provoke.) but anything would wind her up (mum) and she would be verbally screaming how much she (mum) hated us and my dad and all that sort of stuff. *I have 2 brothers as well. Beware the menopause, my friends, when the moon is faat. 
Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Apr 21, 2022 |
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Apr 21, 2022 17:13
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My parents weren't people who smacked their kids. None of my sisters ever got smacked and I think my brothers has less than a handful of smacks between them. I was given a smack a couple of times as a kid. The second time I was 13 and my mum couldn't hit me hard enough to hurt me so I really didn't care. When I was 17 my dad and I got into a proper fist fight that ended with us rolling on the floor, my dad getting me around the throat and me about to put a thumb in his eye before we realised how hosed up the whole thing was. He took me down the pub and bought me a few drinks as a sort of apology. Also: British PM Johnson signals visa flexibility with India to win trade deal quote:British Prime Minister Boris Johnson indicated he was ready to offer more visas to India in return for this year clinching a free-trade deal that could boost annual bilateral trade by billions of pounds. Those people that voted for Brexit to keep out the immigrants must be jumping on their hats.
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Apr 21, 2022 17:24
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646 dead of covid today, nobody gives a poo poo Society fucken frightens me, man
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Apr 21, 2022 18:25
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Barry Foster posted:646 dead of covid today, nobody gives a poo poo People looked at the risk, saw a slight chance of brain damage and heart disease, and cried open er up.
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Apr 21, 2022 18:28
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Physical chastisement generally doesn't work for a few reasons: 1a) If you're using physical chastisement because the child doesn't understand any explanation you could give, then they'll probably be so upset at the punishment that they won't be able to link it to the reason they're being punished 1b) there's too much time between the reason you're punishing them and the punishment itself, so they can't create a link between the two (behaviourist approaches do work, after all) 2a) The child could understand your explanation, but you decide not to explain, just to physically chastise them - the child doesn't learn why what they did was wrong, so they can't learn from it and change their behaviour 2b) you explain why what the child does was wrong and they understand, but you physically chastise them anyway because you're angry - because there's literally no other reason to do both - at which point the child probably forgets the reason and focuses more on the pain of the physical chastisement 3) Most child development is driven by children wanting to make adults - particularly their care-givers - happy. It's far, far better to praise 'good' behaviour than it is to punish 'bad' behaviour, if only because 'bad' behaviour can change quite wildly between different situations, but 'good' behaviour is more or less consistent across contexts /\ /\ /\ /\ There are still a few other hold-outs wearing a mask when I get the train or tube, but the number sporting one has gone down significantly in the last few weeks.
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Apr 21, 2022 18:29
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Barry Foster posted:646 dead of covid today, nobody gives a poo poo Well, they stopped doing daily counts because covid is over so it's actually only 200 dead a day but yeah
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Apr 21, 2022 18:29
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Saw that the suspected Liz Truss leadership campaign web domain was up for sale and made an inquiry. Anyone want to chip in?
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Apr 21, 2022 18:32
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bessantj posted:Also: I can't find them now but there was some stats shared on Twitter the other day showing non-EU migration under the new visa system is going through the roof. Intentionally or not they have created a system that is pretty open to "skilled" migrants. I'd guess they're trying to balance the demands of Brexit voters with the actual economic need for migrants by being visibly ultra-tough on illegal immigration/asylum and making EU citizens gets visas, while being low-key quite open to legal migration.
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Apr 21, 2022 18:33
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peanut- posted:I can't find them now but there was some stats shared on Twitter the other day showing non-EU migration under the new visa system is going through the roof. Yeah it's a clever ploy to fool thick racists. People crossing by boat are a tiny fraction of the total immigration numbers, and something like 97% of those are successful making asylum claims. The crackdown on 'illegal immigrants' is purely to signal to the press/voters that something is being done about those foreigners.
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Apr 21, 2022 18:39
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keep punching joe posted:Saw that the suspected Liz Truss leadership campaign web domain was up for sale and made an inquiry. Anyone want to chip in? Forward the email to the Led by Donkeys team, they'll offer half a mil straight away.
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Apr 21, 2022 18:55
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peanut- posted:I can't find them now but there was some stats shared on Twitter the other day showing non-EU migration under the new visa system is going through the roof. Pretty sure it's 100% intentional. If racists keep thinking that there are too many foreigners in the country, they're going to keep voting for outrage-stoking right wingers and you never need policies other than "less foreigners stealing your jobs and coming here to get given those big tvs".
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Apr 21, 2022 19:01
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peanut- posted:I can't find them now but there was some stats shared on Twitter the other day showing non-EU migration under the new visa system is going through the roof. There's bound to be a bunch of "Oh legal immigration is alright, it's illegal immigration that I'm against." But plenty must still be against immigration of any type, unless it's very rich people.
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Apr 21, 2022 19:07
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To make one post in this thread today that isn't about pissing, my parents never hit me (as far as I can remember) as a kid. However, they did somehow manage to put the fear of loving god into me if I ever did anything wrong (or was planning something wrong). I don't think I was ever actually grounded - not that they could do anything anyway, I had a computer in my room and that's really all I wanted - and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I was actually punished for anything. I don't really understand what it was or why (my partner suggests middle class white guilt) but the not knowing what might happen if I was caught was, in my opinion, worse than knowing I might get a smack.
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Apr 21, 2022 19:08
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a shitload of people are against any form of immigration because they're racist as gently caress
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Apr 21, 2022 19:09
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keep punching joe posted:People looked at the risk, saw a slight chance of brain damage and heart disease, and cried open er up. Well it's not like they were at risk, is it?
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Apr 21, 2022 19:15
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Gort posted:Well, they stopped doing daily counts because covid is over so it's actually only 200 dead a day but yeah Oh - this I didn't realise. So it's every three days or so then? But yeah. Still poo poo's gonna make polio look like a joke re: permanent disability, but gently caress it, it's the time of todestrieb
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Apr 21, 2022 19:17
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https://twitter.com/BareLeft/status/1517205855376187392?t=y5TWeYLfoHwsW_oRsW3B5Q&s=19 I appreciate the implication that Kieth needs a reason to buy a round of drinks, or that he would share them with anyone else
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Apr 21, 2022 19:19
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kingturnip posted:Physical chastisement generally doesn't work for a few reasons: I don't really feel those are intrinsic to physical punishment. I was routinely hit as a child and do not want to defend it in any way. But it was a) immediate and b) less upsetting for me than drawn out, humiliating punishments like naughty steps or long reproaches.
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Apr 21, 2022 19:28
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Mmm I was somehow never hit but got to watch all my older siblings get the poo poo beaten out of them regularly and I think it's bad actually
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Apr 21, 2022 19:35
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ThomasPaine posted:I feel like you may have this a bit backwards, we're not biologically predisposed to anything, literally all of our behaviours are the product of our social world in one form or another. I’m a big proponent of the social aspect of behaviour but I don’t think this is true. You are biologically predisposed towards some things. Males do have an aggression in them that is very much biological, and it’s good that civilisation has, well, civilised us, but find me a man who doesn’t get a certain primal rush out of a violent situation and I’ll show you a liar.
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Apr 21, 2022 19:42
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As a parent I will say that I sympathise hugely with the urge to give your kid a clip round the ear if they're being particularly arsey. There's been times I've felt like yeeting her through a window if she didn't just stop (or start) doing whatever (undoubtedly trivial in retrospect but all-consuming in the moment) thing that provoked the rising madness. However, it's crucial to *not do that* because you're the responsible adult and they're basically a tiny idiot who's learning how to interact with other humans.
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Apr 21, 2022 19:43
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What if the child is a fascist?
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Apr 21, 2022 19:43
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NotJustANumber99 posted:What if the child is a fascist? Then obviously you bash them, duuuhhh
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Apr 21, 2022 19:47
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NotJustANumber99 posted:What if the child is a fascist? https://twitter.com/SadiqoJN/status/1070995854272675840?t=XHpuLsXDRyjpiEJwwzrLqA&s=19
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Apr 21, 2022 19:50
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That's the closest that a radical voice has got to sparking a public debate on the abolition of the hierarchical family unit in decades.
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Apr 21, 2022 19:56
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I got the old open-handed clap round the arse a very small number of times as a child. It was very much a last resort after a day of me being a boundary pushing poo poo. My father has subsequently apologised, made it clear that he was a product of his own upbringing, and has seen the world (and the dialogue around this) change for the better. I’ll never have children myself, it being a biological impossibility, but I would hope that I would never do this had I had children. I don’t think it hosed me up. Or at least I don’t think it was that that hosed me up, hah. The world moves on, and those who are decent recognise their mistakes and move with it. I am uncommonly lucky in this regard. My mother and father have switched from being voters who sat somewhere between Con and Lib to firmly ‘despairing lefties’ over the last five years, and we have constructive conversations about minority rights. I have a vivid memory of my mother hissing STOP STARING the first time I saw a trans human when I was under ten (ie, 25+ years ago) and then going on a long explanation that people deserved the right to live their authentic selves without scrutiny unless they were harming people. Having parents who were both doctors was no walk in the park but at least they taught me that empathy was a non-negotiable requirement for being a decent human.
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Apr 21, 2022 20:25
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Streeting that ‘other parts of the U.K. are going in a different direction’… it’s a loving *Labour Government* that have outlawed beating your kid in Wales. They’re far from great but on this issue they’ve done a really good job of advocating and defending that change. You’d think he’d at least give a little more credit for that, but he couldn’t give a poo poo.
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Apr 21, 2022 20:25
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So did we just talk about smacking and pissing all day and not even mention b Johnson?
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Apr 21, 2022 20:26
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Getting smacked as a child made me hate the adults that did it. Its unforgivable
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Apr 21, 2022 20:38
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EvilHawk posted:Baker wants him to go so he can install himself (or whatever lackey Brexit group come up with) in power. He's hated Boris for a while for not being sufficiently Brexity. No he hates Boris because Boris "believes" (emphasis quotes) in Net Zero. Baker wants net zero gone.
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Apr 21, 2022 20:43
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NotJustANumber99 posted:So did we just talk about smacking and pissing all day and not even mention b Johnson? Is there a piss tape with Mini Trump in it?
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Apr 21, 2022 20:51
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NotJustANumber99 posted:So did we just talk about smacking and pissing all day and not even mention b Johnson? I'd love to smack the piss out of Alexander dePfeff in Minecraft
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Apr 21, 2022 21:07
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Is there a piss tape with Mini Trump in it? I mean yes there definitely is. What was interesting on pm on radio 4 earlier was some guy salivating/talking about pictures of the downing Street parties coming out, suggesting it would be very difficult for BJ to keep up the "I didn't realise it was a party" line when pictures came out showing him smirk faced with his arms round someone who was not Carrie BJ ergo not in his bubble. Then Evan Davies quickly interjected with "if such a photo were to exist..." And the other guy quickly corrected himself to agree. But basically it sounds like that picture exists and they all know about cos it's weirdly specific otherwise and who goes around imagining pictures of Boris enjoying himself?
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Apr 21, 2022 21:07
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Wasn't he one of the other two people in the pig photos?
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Apr 21, 2022 21:09
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