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FlamingLiberal posted:I’m seeing discussion that under existing Florida statutes the legislature can’t actually dissolve a special district like this Yes, which is why he can't do it unilaterally. He has to get a new law passed and he's proposing adding a special "gently caress Disney" rider to a different bill which was originally about redistricting (this is the only one available because the regular Florida legislative session is over)
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Apr 21, 2022 19:54
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FlamingLiberal posted:I’m seeing discussion that under existing Florida statutes the legislature can’t actually dissolve a special district like this Law says a lot of things. How much do you think DeSantis gives a gently caress? He's gonna push for it so he can slop red meat in the trough for the squealing pigs that are his base and then move on, job done. Someone else can clean up society after he gets what he wants.
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Apr 21, 2022 19:57
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FlamingLiberal posted:I’m seeing discussion that under existing Florida statutes the legislature can’t actually dissolve a special district like this Doesn't matter. He doesn't even have to push this forward. For all the people who keep posting "at least Republicans give their voters what they want", often they don't. They just have to posture like they were going to do what voters wanted. Since it almost always is about hurting someone else instead of giving the voters something material, that works. When your policy promises are stuff like "we'll give you personally $2000" and you don't, that's a problem.
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Apr 21, 2022 20:01
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bird food bathtub posted:Law says a lot of things. How much do you think DeSantis gives a gently caress? He's gonna push for it so he can slop red meat in the trough for the squealing pigs that are his base and then move on, job done. Someone else can clean up society after he gets what he wants. right, its very trumpian. desantis has created the illusion that he started a fight with woke liberal disney and won, and this was desantis' goal of course, the fight isn't over, disney hasn't been punished at all, and it is the mostly dem voters of the orlando metro area who get hosed by this. but details don't matter, the spectacle is what matters
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Apr 21, 2022 20:01
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Isn't it all rather questionably close to being a bill of attainder?
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Apr 21, 2022 20:29
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yes, absolutely. the law was very clearly written with the intent of dissolving RCID, with a few other useless districts thrown in for plausible cover. if only desantis hadn't kept talking about loving with disney while pushing the bill, one might argue that this wasn't all about loving with disney over partisan political reasons
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Apr 21, 2022 20:31
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ReidRansom posted:Isn't it all rather questionably close to being a bill of attainder?
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Apr 21, 2022 20:57
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Sekhmnet posted:I read it was 8-1 with only Sotomayor dissenting Sorry, I should have been more specific. It was 8 to 1 on the technical merits of the specific law. But, four of them, including Gorsuch in his concurrence, stated that they thought the insular cases from the early 1900's that were the foundation for the law were wrongly decided and should be overturned. Even the author of the original rulings, who was also one of the authors of Plessy V Ferguson, said that the holdings in those cases were only supposed to be temporary. But, it's been a hundred and twenty years and they still haven't decided that it's been long enough yet. Gorsuch even says that they shouldn't have been made in the first place because the term non Incorporated citizen doesn't appear in the Constitution anywhere. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Apr 21, 2022 |
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Apr 21, 2022 21:24
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FlamingLiberal posted:Tell that to ACORN There the damage was already done. They were dead in the water long before any of those rulings. Disney can afford a long costly fight if they want to make it one.
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Apr 21, 2022 21:29
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So I'm hoping someone would be able to clear up something for me. One article talking about the DeSantis/Disney fight brings up a point I haven't seen mentioned in any other articles.quote:But dissolving RCID might not be so easy. According to a state statute, once the Senate and House pass the bill with the governor’s signature, a majority of the district homeowners would have to vote in favor of dissolving the district, and since most people who live in RCID are employed by Disney, that scenario seems unlikely. Is this an actual thing in Floridian law, and if it reaches that point and the "district homeowners" all say "Nah, we like our employer"... what happens?
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Apr 21, 2022 22:30
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Randalor posted:So I'm hoping someone would be able to clear up something for me. One article talking about the DeSantis/Disney fight brings up a point I haven't seen mentioned in any other articles.
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Apr 21, 2022 22:34
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Yawgmoft posted:Can someone explain to me, after Citizens United, how directly and purposefully punishing Disney for saying they disagreed with a bill isn't an infringement on free speech? Or how the government retaliating isn't cancel culture? I don't think a ruling banning campaign finance restrictions really has anything to do with this. Citizens United and other related First Amendment cases say that Florida can't pass a law saying that (for example) Disney would be fined a million dollars every time they issue a statement against bigoted laws. But there's no reason Florida can't respond to Disney's political speech by passing a law that hurts Disney's interests by revoking special treatment the state had previously granted Disney. Even if they openly admit it's retaliation for Disney's political stances, I can't really think of any specific First Amendment jurisprudence that would make this illegal. Maybe if it were something more impactful than just dissolving their special district. Now, there might be other reasons based in Florida law that this is actually illegal, but it doesn't really get anywhere near Citizens United. ReidRansom posted:Isn't it all rather questionably close to being a bill of attainder? Hard to say, but I think it's doubtful. A bill of attainder isn't just a bill that affects one entity or class negatively - it's a bill that brands them guilty of a crime and imposes the punishment for that crime. The fundamental nature of a bill of attainder is that it circumvents the judicial system, that it's the legislative branch taking it upon itself to impose crime and punishment on someone without judicial oversight. It's something we're not really familiar with in modern America, but originates from the much weaker civil protections back in medieval England. Back in those days, if you managed to tick off enough politicians and/or nobles, Parliament could just pass a law saying "ReidRansom is guilty of murder and treason and shall be punished by execution", and then you'd go to the hangman as a convicted criminal, no trial necessary. Probably the biggest example of modern bill of attainder jurisprudence in the modern-day US is United States v. Lovett, in which the House Appropriations Committee (at the urging of the House Un-American Activities Committee) held secret hearings to judge government employees accused of being communists, decided that three of them were potentially-disloyal subversives, and added a rider to a spending bill making it law that the government was not allowed to pay those three people anymore. The Supreme Court ruled that doing this was equivalent to declaring them "guilty" of "subversive activities" and "sentencing" them to permanent exclusion from government employment. Another bill of attainder that got struck down was a Congressional attempt to meddle in a high-profile DC child custody dispute, effectively overturning the family court's ruling by immunizing one side from contempt of court charges. The court ruled that the Congress' purpose in passing that bill was "to assume the role of judicial tribunal and impose its own determination of who was or was not a fit parent" in the dispute, and inflicted "extraordinary reputational damage" by effectively branding the other parent a child abuser by legislative fiat. On the other hand, corporations generally haven't had success pursuing that line of argument against adverse actions. For example, Kaspersky and Huawei both sued the Trump administration, claiming that moves to ban federal agencies from using their products were bills of attainder. In both cases, the court found their arguments unpersuasive, saying that the alleged punishment of "the government stops buying our stuff" was too weak, and that some individual legislators openly stating their intent to punish those companies wasn't enough to prove that the bill was based on intent to punish rather than the legitimate reasons given in the official bills.
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Apr 21, 2022 22:48
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The Cleveland Plain Dealer has endorsed Nina Turner for OH-11, as it did last year:quote:We endorsed Nina Turner last year, and do so again this year. She has the passion, experience, toughness and out-of-the-box thinking to give Cleveland a powerful, socially committed and independent congressional voice, much in the spirit of the late U.S. Rep. Lou Stokes, who successfully fought for this majority minority congressional district. In backing 2009 Cuyahoga County corruption reforms, Turner stood up to the Democratic Party. In 2012, she successfully fought for the downstate GOP votes then-Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson needed to make his Cleveland school reform plan a reality.. Redistricting has caused the district to be about 30 percent new voters, which the editorial says is a focus of Turner's voter outreach.
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Apr 21, 2022 23:55
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Maybe Thiel is old news around here but I never knew that much about him. What I really didn't know is that Blake Masters and JD Vance, who both have a pretty good chance of being US Senators, aren't just in his pocket but fully invested in his cult which I can best sum up as "groypers with martini glasses." https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/inside-the-new-right-where-peter-thiel-is-placing-his-biggest-bets The whole thing is worth reading, but here's a little nugget: quote:“We fund some stuff,” he [Masters] told me. “But we’re not funding an army of meme posters.” He told me that he and Thiel had met with Khachiyan, one of the cohosts of Red Scare. “Which was cool,” he said. “Their podcast is interesting.” Ramrod Hotshot fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 05:43
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So someone explain to me why Florida Republicans are currently punching themselves in the dick over Disney and are about to eat billions of dollars in debt?
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Apr 22, 2022 13:28
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:Maybe Thiel is old news around here but I never knew that much about him. What I really didn't know is that Blake Masters and JD Vance, who both have a pretty good chance of being US Senators, aren't just in his pocket but fully invested in his cult which I can best sum up as "groypers with martini glasses." Thiel is just a weird person who had an amazing idea 25 years ago and now, he thinks he is a genius who needs to reshape the world in his own incoherent and crazy way. His most recent thing is putting tens of millions of dollars into JD Vance, Blake Masters, and his Trump SuperPAC. But, before that he was putting millions of dollars into Trump in 2015, setting up a libertarian floating city in international waters, and funding a mass migration to New Hampshire to take over the state and local government to turn it into a libertarian paradise. He is also famously gay and funds many extremely anti-gay groups and individuals despite claiming to be a libertarian. That doesn't even touch on his weird personal/politics-adjacent stuff like how he takes blood infusions from young people because he believes it will help him live forever, he funds research into literal Futurama-style Head preservation technology, or his attempts to create "the conservative version of X" for dating sites, social media, LinkedIn, cryptocurrency, banking, journalism, podcasting networks, and file sharing sites. Or his infamous quest to bring down Gawker and other news outlets that criticized him.
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Apr 22, 2022 13:33
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Cimber posted:So someone explain to me why Florida Republicans are currently punching themselves in the dick over Disney and are about to eat billions of dollars in debt? To help Ron DeSantis' and their own political ambitions for higher office and to create a chilling effect by sending a message to other major organizations that they can be harmed for speaking out or organizing against them. Also, there is a good chance their efforts will be easily overturned by the court and they can just scream "liberal judges!" and show that they tried. Plus, neither they personally nor the state of Florida are going to eat those billions in debt. It would be the residents of the three counties surrounding the Disney district. And they are planning on trying to guilt Disney into covering it for the counties or having a judge block them from doing it. It's mostly about creating a chilling effect and making a political statement and they don't care about the financial impact.
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Apr 22, 2022 13:35
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:To help Ron DeSantis' and their own political ambitions for higher office and to create a chilling effect by sending a message to other major organizations that they can be harmed for speaking out or organizing against them. Ahh so its another case of 'those drat librul judges are preventing us from hurting ourselves again.'
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Apr 22, 2022 13:39
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Any outcome from it looks like a win for DeSantis. Disney capitulates somehow? Hell yeah. Disney tells them to gently caress themselves and moves out of state? Power move. Neighboring counties have to pony up billions for local upkeep now? They're blue counties, gently caress 'em. And they get to forever tell the story around the campfire of how DeSantis stood up to Big Woke and took away their tax free status (they did no such thing, but who cares about details)
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Apr 22, 2022 13:43
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Cimber posted:So someone explain to me why Florida Republicans are currently punching themselves in the dick over Disney and are about to eat billions of dollars in debt? It's (civilization) all a very large cooperation/competition iterated prisoner's dilemma. Republicans are the guys who can't stop mashing betray all the time no matter what. See also, Randian Objectivism. They'd rather betray the out group, but they'll gladly betray the in group.
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Apr 22, 2022 13:44
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Cimber posted:So someone explain to me why Florida Republicans are currently punching themselves in the dick over Disney and are about to eat billions of dollars in debt? Because company towns were outlawed decades ago and legally and morally Disney should not be it's own self-governing entity but because it's a republican governor and they're using working people as a cudgel to defend Disney's special self governing status in typical liberal fashion. Of course, the democrats could do something like pass a $20 minimum wage and protect those workers from any economic backlash from Disney losing its barony status but it's better for fundraising to make it all a culture war issue. Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 13:55
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Lib and let die posted:Because company towns were outlawed decades ago and legally and morally Disney should not be it's own self-governing entity but because it's a republican governor and they're using working people as a cudgel to defend Disney's special self governing status in typical liberal fashion. The special district doesn't really have anything to do with the employees. It's about local zoning, exempting Disney from county-wide regulations passed by the state legislature in exchange for Disney funding all of its own county services, and issuing bonds. If Disney loses its status, it doesn't really impact the employees either way.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:05
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The special district doesn't really have anything to do with the employees. It's about local zoning, exempting Disney from county-wide regulations passed by the state legislature in exchange for Disney funding all of its own county services, and issuing bonds. Great! Full speed ahead, then!
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Apr 22, 2022 14:09
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The most disgusting thing I've seen over all this Disney business is the Twitter shitlib brigade lining up to fight on Disney's behalf. The enemy of your enemy can still be an rear end in a top hat and you are under no obligation to defend them or side with them. Like, I like the Marvel movies and all, but also gently caress Disney. Let them fight their own battles. And if Florida wants to gently caress itself in its own rank sweaty rear end to stick it to woke culture or whatever, win-win? You achieved nothing of any great importance, hurt your own citizens to score points with the worst people in society, and they were going to support you anyway. Good job.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:18
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ReidRansom posted:The most disgusting thing I've seen over all this Disney business is the Twitter shitlib brigade lining up to fight on Disney's behalf. The enemy of your enemy can still be an rear end in a top hat and you are under no obligation to defend them or side with them. Yeah, it's not like the democrats do anything down here even in what safe districts they have. My rep is happy to take money from the scummiest payday lenders like Amscot to turn a blind eye to their exploitation of impoverished people, I don't expect any signalling about "we're worried for the workers of and adjacent to Disney" to be anything but branding because you still want to hug and kiss Ian MacKechnie so he keeps throwing dollars in your campaign war chest.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:21
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ReidRansom posted:The most disgusting thing I've seen over all this Disney business is the Twitter shitlib brigade lining up to fight on Disney's behalf. The enemy of your enemy can still be an rear end in a top hat and you are under no obligation to defend them or side with them. Sticking thousands of random people with $2,000 of Disney's debt for no real reason and creating a chilling effect that people shouldn't speak up against their state government for fear of retaliation are bad, OP.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:29
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Sticking thousands of random people with $2,000 of Disney's debt for no real reason and creating a chilling effect that people shouldn't speak up against their state government for fear of retaliation are bad, OP. Corporate fiefdoms are good?
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Apr 22, 2022 14:29
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It is absolutely amazing to me how many people are willing to paint this in as ridiculous a light as possible to excuse obviously bad behavior by the government because 'but I hate corporations therefore'. This isn't a company town issue. This is going to completely decimate multiple left wing counties and solidify the idea of government retaliation against speech because a company dared to say they didn't like a bill. 'Fake leftists support Disney' is no different than 'why would you defend gawker', or 'actually anti BDS laws are good and the government should control what people protest.'
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Apr 22, 2022 14:34
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Yawgmoft posted:It is absolutely amazing to me how many people are willing to paint this in as ridiculous a light as possible to excuse obviously bad behavior by the government because 'but I hate corporations therefore'. *ahem* Lib and let die posted:Of course, the democrats could do something like pass a $20 minimum wage and protect those workers from any economic backlash from Disney losing its barony status but it's better for fundraising to make it all a culture war issue.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:36
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Yawgmoft posted:It is absolutely amazing to me how many people are willing to paint this in as ridiculous a light as possible to excuse obviously bad behavior by the government because 'but I hate corporations therefore'. ron desantis was very shrewd to realize that people hate corporations so much they'll leap to their feet and applaud even the hint of disney getting punished in the most minor way possible even if it ends up being a significant burden on the working class Lib and let die posted:Of course, the democrats could do something like pass a $20 minimum wage and protect those workers from any economic backlash from Disney losing its barony status but it's better for fundraising to make it all a culture war issue. this doesn't make sense. how is a wage increase supposed to help compensate for the tax implications of merging county governments? i mean this politely but i do not think you understand what is going on here in terms of what the RCID does and what dissolving it means for the local counties who have to assume the infrastructure burdens of the magic kingdom
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Apr 22, 2022 14:37
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Lib and let die posted:Corporate fiefdoms are good? Payday lenders are also bad, but launching a nuclear missile into every city with a Payday loan store and then giving the Payday loan company headquarters a $2.2 billion tax break would be a very bad way to deal with the problems caused by Payday lending.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:37
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Lib and let die posted:*ahem* A higher minimum wage is good but I'm not sure how it's relevant here.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:38
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RBA Starblade posted:A higher minimum wage is good but I'm not sure how it's relevant here. You're not sure how a higher wage is relevant to the problem that the people of these counties are expected to shoulder increased costs? I'm not sure there's much more we can add to explain it to you. What happens if these counties decide to just not maintain Disney's roads? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 22, 2022 14:41
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Harold Fjord posted:You're not sure how a higher wage is relevant to the problem that the people of these counties are expected to shoulder increased costs? I'm not sure there's much more we can add to explain it to you. "The tax burden will shift to the underpaid workers who can't afford it!" What if we made their wages higher? "It doesn't look like anything to me."
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Apr 22, 2022 14:42
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RBA Starblade posted:A higher minimum wage is good but I'm not sure how it's relevant here. because everything is always the democratic parties fault, even when its literally the gop majority in the government slamming through something that does nothing but make them look like petty shitheads and the dems in congress have no power to stop it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 22, 2022 14:44
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Thiel is just a weird person who had an amazing idea 25 years ago and now, he thinks he is a genius who needs to reshape the world in his own incoherent and crazy way. This is another paypal guy right? I was going to do the FTFY thing and edit your post that he's a rich son with millioions or billions from his parents, but skimming wikipedia I'm not sure about his family histroy/wealth.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:45
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Lib and let die posted:"The tax burden will shift to the underpaid workers who can't afford it!" Harold Fjord posted:You're not sure how a higher wage is relevant to the problem that the people of these counties are expected to shoulder increased costs? I'm not sure there's much more we can add to explain it to you. It would be a one-time payment for the assumption of securitized bonds issued by Reedy Creek. It would be due immediately.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:47
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I love how you've solved nothing and you're so proud of yourself. You've still burdened them more than their neighbors who now have far more spending power than them either way, you haven't solved any actual issue you are just allowing the government to get away with abuse of power, and we can't even pass a 15 dollar minimum wage so this isn't even viable. Republicans create a problem > yeah but democrats could solve them by doing something beyond what anyone in this country has ever done > why are democrats hurting the workers in Florida?
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Apr 22, 2022 14:48
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Harold Fjord posted:You're not sure how a higher wage is relevant to the problem that the people of these counties are expected to shoulder increased costs? I'm not sure there's much more we can add to explain it to you. democrats don't have enough power in the state legislature to force through a minwage hike democrats at the county level could theoretically do so, but given that businesses also have to pay the special tax assessment (and usually pay a higher rate because businesses don't have things like homestead exemptions) then you're basically layering a steep increase in taxation on top of a steep increase in operating costs on local businesses. this is likely to cause a lot of businesses to cut hours or fold entirely, spiking unemployment and thus deftly shooting yourself in the foot in terms of dealing with this sudden unforeseen increase in county expenses
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Apr 22, 2022 14:49
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It would be a one-time payment for the assumption of securitized bonds issued by Reedy Creek. It would be due immediately. Ok. What happens next, given that in reality they don't actually have this money either way? It's extremely tedious that we can't talk about how one party isn't helping while the other party makes things worse without being yelled at. We know the Republicans are always making things worse, we fully expect that from them. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 14:50
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