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After many long months of trying, I finally landed an offer at a new company... only downside is that they have not told me how much they are offering. It is a big tech company that we all know, so their salary data is readily available via levels.fyi (sort of... data for my region is somewhat sparse), but despite saying I was being offered, the recruiter left the onus firmly on me to give my expected TC value first before moving on from here. What would the best advice be moving forward from here? I don't want to toss out a number way off base and get a "oh, I guess our expectations aren't aligned, sorry, never mind," but I am also so tired of being shafted on salary by employers... EDIT: As leverage, I do have a "competing" offer pending (infinitely shittier, pays less, not big tech, but competing offer nonetheless) and my employer would almost definitely try to match if I pulled this card on them.
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Apr 21, 2022 23:42
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I have never heard of "an offer" that didn't contain the explanation of benefits/compensation. Is it possible you are in an earlier stage than you think you are? It doesn't sound like you have an offer.
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Apr 21, 2022 23:45
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Corla Plankun posted:I have never heard of "an offer" that didn't contain the explanation of benefits/compensation. Is it possible you are in an earlier stage than you think you are? It doesn't sound like you have an offer. Oh no, they very clearly explained all the benefits, what level they would be bringing me in at, the hiring manger, team, etc. The recruiters said I was being offered, the title of the meeting was "offer call." It is an offer, they just don't want to say the first number.
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Apr 21, 2022 23:47
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That sounds out of order. In my experience, the "offer call" is when they send you the PDF of the complete initial offer package and go over it with you verbally. It can't be an offer without numbers.
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Apr 21, 2022 23:57
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Guinness posted:That sounds out of order. In my experience, the "offer call" is when they send you the PDF of the complete initial offer package and go over it with you verbally. It can't be an offer without numbers. I mean, I agree, but yet here we are... At every step of the way, the recruiter kept mentioning that when I receive my official written offer in two to three days or whatever, all the benefit/perk info he was describing will be there, blah blah blah... I am thinking perhaps they are just trying to get an initial number out of me to tailor their offer toward? My thought now is that he intentionally kept it vague to make it sound like they wouldn't submit any paperwork to me until they get an initial number, but I am going to see something in a few days either way? They're obviously just trying to play a high pressure game, imo... standard big business bullshit.
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Apr 22, 2022 00:16
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strongly reconsider your desire to work for a company that does not agree with globally-accepted definitions of english words
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Apr 22, 2022 00:16
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Gin_Rummy posted:I mean, I agree, but yet here we are... "Yeah that sounds great. Send me the paperwork and I'll review it by EoW" Just ignore their nonsense.
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Apr 22, 2022 00:36
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You can professionally but firmly say "We both know how negotiating works and I'm not going to gotcha myself by making an offer to you from my position of vastly less information, I will be very happy to receive an offer from you and go from there." If they refuse and threaten to walk away, either let them, or name an astronomical number. This poo poo's even weirder because if it's as big a mega tech company as you say, they certainly already know your entire salary history Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 00:38
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leper khan posted:"Yeah that sounds great. Send me the paperwork and I'll review it by EoW" Would it be out of line to do either one or multiple of the following: 1. When I meet with the hiring manager again to discuss day-to-day work-life stuff, mention that I am thrilled but concerned because I still haven't actually seen an official offer (perhaps he can nudge something along?) 2. Reply to the recruiter nowish and say that after carefully considering the numbers, I am comfortable leaving the offer in their hands, as I trust that the offer will be competitive (then negotiate from there) 3. Just wait the 2-3 days that they implied my offical offer would take without saying anything or providing a number, and ask where the offer is when that deadline runs up and hope that they finally just give me something with a starting point
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Apr 22, 2022 00:46
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Is the recruiter an internal or external one? I imagine internal (most big tech) but this kind of seems like 3rd party recruiter shenanigans. In my experience with large tech/FAANG cos they will give you a strong offer right from the get go without any jerking around.
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Apr 22, 2022 01:01
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It's an internal one, as far as I know. I don't think they are even contracted... pretty sure a direct employee. I can't say for sure, but I think this company in particular is just a bit worse about this stuff. From what I understand, while they generally pay quite decently and have great benefits, they are still not quite on par with most of the bigger FAANG companies.
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Apr 22, 2022 01:12
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Gin_Rummy posted:Would it be out of line to do either one or multiple of the following: whats wrong with leper kahn's very sensible advice, why are you doin this stuff rather than the simple and easy thing
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Apr 22, 2022 01:15
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:whats wrong with leper kahn's very sensible advice, why are you doin this stuff rather than the simple and easy thing Nothing, tbh, I'm just not sure how to broach the subject without essentially coming across like my proposed option 2 now that this is a couple of hours removed from the phone call. EDIT: Especially since I am pretty sure in the moment I said something to the effect of "I'll look at numbers and try to come up with something." (doing my best to deflect from giving a value then and there) "Thanks again for running through the benefits info with me today, I look forward to the upcoming discussion with the manager and an official offer from your team for me to review?" Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 01:18
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Literally do nothing until they get back to you.
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Apr 22, 2022 02:36
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Arquinsiel posted:Literally do nothing until they get back to you. I can do that. Considering this whole situation feels shady and shaky, at what point would it be advisable to work my current company for a counter offer? I’ve always erred on the side of “once offer is in hand and officially accepted,” but now I’m unsure if/when that will happen with the current offer.
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Apr 22, 2022 03:21
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Gin_Rummy posted:I can do that. If your current company doesn't know that you're looking, don't go to them for a counter offer until you have an offer in hand. You do not, as yet, have an offer in hand.
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Apr 22, 2022 04:02
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Better plan, don't try to get a counter offer from your current employer at all, unless you like (or at least are very well prepared for) the prospect of being unemployed in six months. If you want to try to get a significant raise from your employer it's best to initiate that conversation a long way off the review cycle, and couched in a "I'd like to take another look at my compensation and plan a roadmap of specifically how we can get there" way. Going to them offer in hand with "hey here's an offer from a competitor, wanna match it?" is a good way to find yourself happy right now then abruptly unemployed a few months down the road, if they'd be hosed next month without you but don't actually want to pay that much long term. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 04:16
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Eric the Mauve posted:Better plan, don't try to get a counter offer from your current employer at all, unless you like (or at least are very well prepared for) the prospect of being unemployed in six months. I’m honestly not worried about that at all with the current employer because attrition is close to 30% right now. They aren’t firing anyone for a long time. That being said I also don’t want to stay there… but an insurance policy would be nice if big tech is just jerking me around. EDIT: It’s also extremely common in my current industry to play the “I dare you to let me leave” game for promotions and raises. Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 04:46
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Double post due to a slight development. There are two recruiters involved in this process: the one who sourced me and helped prepare me for the interview, then the one who only seems to exist to produce anxiety in me. The sourcing/prep one reached out to me this morning to clarify an area of confusion that we ran into the day after being informed I was getting an offer. Would it be a bad idea to say anything to this recruiter along the lines of “I’m excited but confused because I still haven’t seen any numbers, is this actually an offer?” Or whatever? It’s amazing how you can objectively and easily tell people what to do through these scenarios, but as soon as it’s you, suddenly everything is second guessed and no choice feels correct.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:23
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The answer is leper khan posted:"Yeah that sounds great. Send me the paperwork and I'll review it by EoW"
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Apr 22, 2022 17:30
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Eric the Mauve posted:Better plan, don't try to get a counter offer from your current employer at all, unless you like (or at least are very well prepared for) the prospect of being unemployed in six months. I think this isn't realistic advice, especially anymore in the current market. I just think 90% of the time a counter offer is going to be less than what another company will offer, will take longer than advertised, and it will usually stick you in the back of the line giving you more headwind the next time you need an adjustment. But I've never seen anyone let go simply for getting a counter offer, that seems like a waste of resources. So I agree a counter offer should not be a 1A option most of the time, but just not because I think you'll get canned.
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Apr 22, 2022 19:14
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Lockback posted:I think this isn't realistic advice, especially anymore in the current market. I just think 90% of the time a counter offer is going to be less than what another company will offer, will take longer than advertised, and it will usually stick you in the back of the line giving you more headwind the next time you need an adjustment. But I've never seen anyone let go simply for getting a counter offer, that seems like a waste of resources. This was pretty much my thinking. Plenty of people here do it year in year out with no repercussion, and I already got an adjustment in December and then a weak raise on top of it with my yearly review, so I think at this point I’m already last in line for an adjustment. Overall I agree that it is a fruitless exercise and not a viable long term plan, but honestly I’d rather squeeze them for a bit of money while I “kind of” have leverage. If my current offer falls through, at least I walk away with more money from someone.
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Apr 22, 2022 19:30
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Gin_Rummy posted:Double post due to a slight development.
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Apr 22, 2022 20:49
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I weirdly just got into this exact same situation this morning! A third-party recruiter was trying to get me to agree to numbers on an offer before they actually sent the offer. Maybe this is some kind of slimy new tactic to try to force numbers. For my situation, I refused to budge on numbers. My go-to line is "Compensation and benefits are inextricably linked and I can't talk about one in the absence of the other." and I said it a bunch, and then rejected the offer proposed by the 3rd-party recruiter with the qualifier that "If I had it all in writing we might be able to work something out." "Tell HR to send the offer so we can move forward." etc. It was really hard to get the recruiter to budge though. Pretty big pain in the rear end.
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Apr 22, 2022 20:54
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I usually get a verbal offer with number, then negotiate on that, then they send me the DocuSign with the numbers we agreed on. That's normal Only once did I get a written offer and then negotiate on that, I think because it was a smaller startup and the cofounder didn't want to talk money on the phone
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Apr 22, 2022 21:14
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Hi I do mri and I'm staring at a new job and now that the job market is completely 180 in health care I want to get paid. When I first graduated back in 2012 it took me a year and a half to find my first job and I took the first loving thing no questions asked. Now that covid has killed everyone or forced them to retire, there is such a massive shortage of techs that the desperation shoe is on the other foot. I already know the job I work in is criminally underpaying me (one reason to leave). So I get a cold call out of the blue from Johns Hopkins recruiter. Told me they pulled my resume from a application I did back in 2018. Did a 15 minute zoom call with the dept director, two days later they offer me the position. The entire process has been confusing since it was an immediate offer after just the extremely brief zoom call. I'm currently doing the on boarding stuff like physical, drug crime background checks etc. I verbally agreed but have not signed anything, my projected start date is May 31st. I currently make $36hr, their offer is $42/hr. From my limited understanding, other hospitals are putting out $45-50 for mri. I believe I am worth at least the $50 at a minimum considering my experience, education, and multiple modality ability as the director did mention something about also doing some side coverage in nuclear medicine. The initial recruiter call was listing the openings and it was literally every single site, so it is clear to me they have a lot of holes and nobody trying to fill them (especially if they dragged my poo poo up from 2018) How do I tell them ok I said ok to the 42 but really I need 50 to make this work. I'm perfectly happy to just walk away from this offer considering how great the market is and I'd rather work in Philly than Baltimore so I'm kind of hoping they balk anyway. It's non union and they have some sort of magical pay scale where they just input experience and that's your pay. I'm concerned they'll just be like oh this is where you fall on the pay band sorry no alterations.
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Apr 23, 2022 10:08
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So you verbally agreed to the 42 and now you want to ask for 50? Seems a little late there. You can set forth the ask but your position is not very strong. You can still try to negotiate an upward departure from the offer, citing the more robust responsibilities named in the interview and your ability to hit the ground running on all of them. They probably won’t pull the offer or anything, but be aware that you’ve already given up your position. Next time set forth a counter. Little inside baseball here, Johns Hopkins pays lower than most other hospitals in the NE because they know they can - they’ve got a reputation that makes you eminently employable once they’re on your resume. Not sure about techs but for nurses my understanding is that they’ve got an extremely structured rate schedule that is very much “take it or leave it”. That said, I know someone who managed to wrest an additional $5k a year out of ‘em for from their initial offer on a nursing informatics position so YMMV. Not a Children fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 11:22
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Asproigerosis posted:So I get a cold call out of the blue from Johns Hopkins recruiter. I work in health tech in Baltimore and my girlfriend is a nurse. Johns Hopkins is notorious for underpaying. It looks great on a resume, but you can't eat prestige.
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Apr 23, 2022 13:12
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I would not renege on a verbal agreement just to ask for more than you agreed to. I would either suck it up and take the job while continuing to look for something better, or tell them you've had a change of heart and stay put at your current job for now. That may be irrational on my part, though. You might logically conclude that either of those moves (take the job then hop in a few months, or just change your mind and decline) will probably get you blacklisted by JH anyway, so there's no extra harm in asking for more. But on the gripping hand a company notorious for underpaying its staff is unlikely to meet your ask in any case. I'm interested what others would do in this spot.
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Apr 23, 2022 14:30
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Eric the Mauve posted:I would not renege on a verbal agreement just to ask for more than you agreed to. I would either suck it up and take the job while continuing to look for something better, or tell them you've had a change of heart and stay put at your current job for now. I have no idea, tbh. If I wanted 50, I would have asked for 55 to begin with. Could go with the 'got another offer at 50, but I really like you' thing. But if they call the bluff they could blacklist for lying about it.
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Apr 23, 2022 14:57
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I don't like lying to a megacorp even if I were good at lying, they usually have access to a lot more info than they let on. Plus there's the issue of their rep being such that it's unlikely they're going to match a higher offer anyway. They probably got OP's resume back out of the recycling bin in the first place because they were trolling not for just anyone but specifically for people they can underpay. e: vvv Yeah take it but don't even pause looking for something better is probably the best of the bad options here, unless it's like a horrible commute that would make it an effective pay cut or something. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 15:20
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Take the job, get that prestigious hospital name on your resume and find a new job in 6-12-18 months? 
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Apr 23, 2022 15:32
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If you’re willing to just walk, you might as well ask for more. Either way they’ll view it as being burned.
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Apr 23, 2022 15:45
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Pro negotiating tip for the future: don’t verbally agree to poo poo you aren’t willing to accept
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Apr 23, 2022 16:02
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yeah everyone in health care here knows they lowball because of 'name brand' and absolutely nobody gives a poo poo about seeing hopkins on a resume for rad techs. Especially now when every hospital in america needs bodies so it's not like you need an edge. I have to move to take the job also.
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Apr 23, 2022 16:22
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Well yeah you’ve already shot yourself in one foot on this one so it’s sort of a personal judgment call if you want to aim at the other foot now or just take the offer.
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Apr 23, 2022 16:53
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Asproigerosis posted:yeah everyone in health care here knows they lowball because of 'name brand' and absolutely nobody gives a poo poo about seeing hopkins on a resume for rad techs. Especially now when every hospital in america needs bodies so it's not like you need an edge. I have to move to take the job also. lol yeah no thanks to relocating for six extra bucks an hour. The big lesson you should learn from this is to never, ever snap accept an offer, on the phone or in person. You always say you need a few days to think it over/talk it over with your family/ etc, even if in the moment you're willing to accept the offer as is. That way you can take time and think it through once the emotions have cooled down. No company worth working for will ever have a problem with this, any company that pressures you to take it or leave it now now now should be regarded and treated like the used car salesman hucksters they are.
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Apr 23, 2022 17:03
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Wibla posted:Take the job, get that prestigious hospital name on your resume and find a new job in 6-12-18 months? This is probably the best bet unless you really, really think you can get 50+. JH will be a career accelerator which it seems like you may need anyway. If you really think you can get $50+ then politely tell them you've reconsidered and believe your salary requirements are above their offer. Let them ask you what it is, if they don't ask there's no negotiation. Edit: Oh, I didn't catch the relocation piece. Yeah that kinda sucks unless you wanted to move anyway. I'd probably just politely pass. Lockback fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 17:04
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Since you have to relocate (and you don't say that moving to body more murda land is a big draw for you) I suggest asking for the moon in whatever way you want and then walking unless they meet you.
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Apr 23, 2022 17:12
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Hadlock posted:I usually get a verbal offer with number, then negotiate on that, then they send me the DocuSign with the numbers we agreed on. This is what I’m used to as well and what is driving the anxiety of the situation for me. The recruiter said “the paperwork you’ll get in a few days,” but I’m pretty sure he was assuming I would give him a number then and there and that he won’t start any paperwork until getting a number. So basically, I’m fully expecting that midway next week I’m going to have to ping him asking where the paperwork is and he’ll say “you never gave a number” and put us right back at square one.
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Apr 23, 2022 17:31
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