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Failed Imagineer posted:And if you're not wearing an N95 at this point in underventilated crowded areas, you don't value your own life and I won't feel bad for you if you die of COVID Eh, I mean, FFP2 masks aren't expensive in isolation, but the costs do add up. Like, £10 for a pack of 5 that the consensus seems to be shouldn't use more than 3 times, and once you take it off you shouldn't put it back on until you've washed it (or at all). So assuming you commute by public transport that means going through 2 masks a day. So you're going through £10 masks every fortnight per person. Which isn't a life changing sum but when you're already struggling to get by & you have 2 kids, that poo poo adds up. And technically if you follow the guidelines on the box it insists you use once & then bin. So then suddenly you're going through 2 packs a week. So I'll still feel sad if people die of covid. And that's not considering situations like massive open floor offices where ventilation is often questionable & so suddenly you're having to use extra masks because now you have to take one off for lunch & any time you go for a cuppa tea or water or Irn Bru. Or employees who work in said office in a call centre type job where you can't use the facemask properly with a headset. Compassion isn't rationed, that's Tory brained thinking. April 22nd 1993 - Stephen Lawrence is murdered. It's horrific. It takes just shy of 9 years for anyone to be sent to prison. April 22nd is also the 112th day of the year. That means I have averaged watching 1.6 wrestling shows per day in 2022. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 11:48
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Off topic but I mentioned the Private Law Theory blog yesterday, latest update is a paper that sounds really interesting but I don't have time to read, not socialism related but thought I'd post it as it's politics/feminism-adjacent & I'd definitely read it if I had time: An Economic Critique of No-Fault Divorce Laws Abstract posted:The impact of no-fault divorce laws is still a hotly debated topic in Economics today. Some say no-fault divorce laws have had no influence on divorce rates; others say they have had a significant impact. This paper essentially claims that no-fault divorce has indeed had significant and often unanticipated financial ramifications for families in general, and women in particular, since it has undermined a system that was mainly predicated on mutual agreement. Mutual consent system safeguarded partners who depended on the continuation of their marital relationship, but no-fault divorce diminished this protection and also the negotiating power of the spouse who did not want to terminate the marriage, often the woman. This paper will attempt to criticize no-fault divorce laws and studies that support them, as well as elaborating on why such laws are rationally impossible to be fair.
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Apr 22, 2022 11:52
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forkboy84 posted:Eh, I mean, FFP2 masks aren't expensive in isolation, but the costs do add up. Like, £10 for a pack of 5 that the consensus seems to be shouldn't use more than 3 times, and once you take it off you shouldn't put it back on until you've washed it (or at all). So assuming you commute by public transport that means going through 2 masks a day. So you're going through £10 masks every fortnight per person. Which isn't a life changing sum but when you're already struggling to get by & you have 2 kids, that poo poo adds up. And technically if you follow the guidelines on the box it insists you use once & then bin. So then suddenly you're going through 2 packs a week. So I'll still feel sad if people die of covid. And that's not considering situations like Nah you can use em basically as much as you like, it's just that when the elastic on the headband starts to go, the seal won't be as tight. But there are ways around this. Functionally, unless you're in some sort of industrial environment with horrible poo poo everywhere, the actual mask will last almost indefinitely
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Apr 22, 2022 11:53
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It's interesting looking at what engineers in other countries where Covid is cared about as a practical problem rather than an individual moral issue or "over now back to work" are doing. This is a high end example in Bucharest, but I know smaller scale engineers in Romania who are going with a simpler "big roof extractor fan plus CO2 sensor to estimate exhaled air plus proportional controller" system for shops and schools. It's something that people don't seem to be talking much about in the UK, which is a bit like not bothering to talk about building codes after the Fire of London. Borrovan posted:Off topic but I mentioned the Private Law Theory blog yesterday, latest update is a paper that sounds really interesting but I don't have time to read, not socialism related but thought I'd post it as it's politics/feminism-adjacent & I'd definitely read it if I had time:
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Apr 22, 2022 12:01
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Barry Foster posted:Nah you can use em basically as much as you like, it's just that when the elastic on the headband starts to go, the seal won't be as tight. But there are ways around this. Is there a good long term use model of them you would recommend? I haven't stopped wearing a mask but if I need to upgrade to a more expensive one then I might as well, ideally it would also look decent. I wonder if I can get one that I can just put N95 filters in? Could go full time cybergoth.
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Apr 22, 2022 12:08
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E:^^^°°° Aura9210, unless you wanna go for a full-face respirator in which case idk check the COVID threadforkboy84 posted:Eh, I mean, FFP2 masks aren't expensive in isolation, but the costs do add up. Like, £10 for a pack of 5 that the consensus seems to be shouldn't use more than 3 times, and once you take it off you shouldn't put it back on until you've washed it (or at all). Yeah like Barry said that's bollocks, use an N95 until it's grubby or becomes difficult to breathe through. Also while N95s technically have about the same filtration certification as a KN95 or FFP2, they're way way better in terms of fit, comfort, and solid construction, and no more expensive when sourced from a good supplier. I bought a 20box off bonafide masks which has lasted me nearly a year, and would have been longer if I'd gotten the model with the braided headstraps that don't just go sproing when you pull slightly too hard  Headstraps>>>>earloops as well
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Apr 22, 2022 12:10
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Barry Foster posted:Nah you can use em basically as much as you like, it's just that when the elastic on the headband starts to go, the seal won't be as tight. But there are ways around this. One of my masks (I have many) is 3-ply cotton job. After being washed several times a week and dunked in Milton's fluid routinely, it has taken several months for it to start to fall apart. I can wear it ok if I put another mask over the top.
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Apr 22, 2022 12:11
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OwlFancier posted:Is there a good long term use model of them you would recommend? I haven't stopped wearing a mask but if I need to upgrade to a more expensive one then I might as well, ideally it would also look decent. The disposable ones I usually buy are out of stock now, but these will probably be broadly similar: https://www.arco.co.uk/Web-Taxonomy...000000000020718 When I'm gonna be somewhere for a long time - like in the gym, or on a train or something - I use this, because it's easier to breathe through and it's a lot easier to maintain a consistent seal: https://www.arco.co.uk/Web-Taxonomy...000000000025572 Failed Imagineer posted:Headstraps>>>>earloops as well Yup, this this this
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Apr 22, 2022 12:15
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Barry Foster posted:The disposable ones I usually buy are out of stock now, but these will probably be broadly similar: Cheers, will have a look. You would think they would have invented fashionable ones by now, it's the hell future, where are my functional cyberpunk accessories?
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Apr 22, 2022 12:17
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If you want to do cyberpunk you can just wear a half face respirator anyway. Stick some LEDs on it.
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Apr 22, 2022 12:24
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Guavanaut posted:If you want to do cyberpunk you can just wear a half face respirator anyway. Stick some LEDs on it. Well yeah that's basically what I am looking for now, a half face respirator with relatively compact filters and ideally in black. Could stencil some anarchy signs on it or something with silver pen.
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Apr 22, 2022 12:26
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OwlFancier posted:Cheers, will have a look. You would think they would have invented fashionable ones by now, it's the hell future, where are my functional cyberpunk accessories? This thing looks pretty gnarly https://www.arco.co.uk/Web-Taxonomy...000000000025531
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Apr 22, 2022 12:28
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It is goth weekend this weekend so I am half tempted to go and see if they have any 
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Apr 22, 2022 12:33
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Barry Foster posted:This thing looks pretty gnarly I bought the same last year, but for £10 cheaper on Amazon. I didn't use it in the end, as it had an unfiltered exhale valve.
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Apr 22, 2022 12:37
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Barry Foster posted:This thing looks pretty gnarly Perfect in combo with neon dreadlocks and parachute combats.
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Apr 22, 2022 12:40
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OwlFancier posted:It is goth weekend this weekend so I am half tempted to go and see if they have any I would drive down but I have a warning light on the car that won't be getting looked at til Tuesday  There will be a shitload of brass / copper Steampunk respirator masks on display, rather less of the Cybergoth neon respirators I would guess.
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Apr 22, 2022 12:42
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NoneMoreNegative posted:I would drive down but I have a warning light on the car that won't be getting looked at til Tuesday They didn't have as much steampunk stuff last time, and I don't think I've seen them do respirators, definitely recall a latex-heavy cybergoth stall though. I didn't really look around too much though cos I was trying to stay mostly outside last time.
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Apr 22, 2022 12:46
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Barry Foster posted:This thing looks pretty gnarly My dentist wears that, it's like having your teeth checked by Bane. "You've merely adapted the dark. Impacted lower 18, fissure sealant lower 19 I was born in it, molded by it." Red Oktober fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 12:49
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Oh I meant on the general goth visitor populace; I saw the 'Pink is the New Black' and 'Cybergoth' eras of Whitby firsthand but all that is past and gone, last time I took a daytrip it was 80% Steampunk by volume.
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Apr 22, 2022 12:50
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Make sure you shave every day if you're going to wear one of those masks. And that you've been fit tested on them.
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Apr 22, 2022 12:51
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NoneMoreNegative posted:Oh I meant on the general goth visitor populace; I saw the 'Pink is the New Black' and 'Cybergoth' eras of Whitby firsthand but all that is past and gone, last time I took a daytrip it was 80% Steampunk by volume. It was more prevalent a few years back but it seems to have faded out a bit, possibly because the rifle club I think stopped hosting them?
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Apr 22, 2022 12:56
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serious gaylord posted:Make sure you shave every day if you're going to wear one of those masks. If you have the resources and ability to fit test and find the perfect mask that's great, but also if you don't pretty much any FFP2/3 mask is still going to be a substantial upgrade over a cloth mask. I've been liking the 3m Aura FFP2 - https://www.medisave.co.uk/3m-9320-disposable-aura-respirator-mask-unvalved-ffp2.html - because it has a flap to go under my chin which holds it in place well. They're like £1.80 each, comfortable and last ages. For a while Home Bargains were selling boxes of 16 Honeywell FFP3 masks for £4, dunno if that's still a thing though.
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Apr 22, 2022 13:48
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Answers Me posted:The country won’t function for long with people feeling too lovely to go about their lives at full capacity, even if they think it’s broadly ok on an a individual level.
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Apr 22, 2022 13:52
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blunt posted:I've been liking the 3m Aura FFP2 - https://www.medisave.co.uk/3m-9320-disposable-aura-respirator-mask-unvalved-ffp2.html - because it has a flap to go under my chin which holds it in place well. They're like £1.80 each, comfortable and last ages. Yeah these basically look the same as the N95 Auras I wear which are good, notwithstanding the aforementioned snapping of elastic straps occasionally. Though you can often fix that with a stapler
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Apr 22, 2022 13:56
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I've already had my head stapled once and I think stapling a mask to it would be inconvenient.
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Apr 22, 2022 13:58
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I dunno about all this mask stuff. I still wear them because I've got lots of pretty coloured ones and my face is rubbish anyway. Just got a big spot on my nose and looking at the inside of it, I think it's cos I wear the orange one too much without washing it
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Apr 22, 2022 14:11
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Talking to some senior medical friends, the trouble with covid is that it appears to randomly damage something with every infection. Most times the damage is small (if your immune system is strong), but the damage can be literally anywhere. There's a child in my kids school who now has type 1 diabetes because of it, and another one in a wheelchair. But they're not dead, so according to Boris, it's all ok.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:20
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blunt posted:If you have the resources and ability to fit test and find the perfect mask that's great, but also if you don't pretty much any FFP2/3 mask is still going to be a substantial upgrade over a cloth mask. A mask that doesn't fit is still letting things in. At that point you might as well be wearing a cloth mask.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:24
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The cloth masks don't fit either in my experience
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Apr 22, 2022 14:30
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serious gaylord posted:A mask that doesn't fit is still letting things in. Sure, but even if it's not a perfect fit a FFP2/3 mask that has headstraps and a mouldable node bridge is almost always going to fit better than whatever cloth or earstrap surgical mask someone is otherwise wearing. Which means serious gaylord posted:At that point you might as well be wearing a cloth mask. Nope!. The point I'm trying to make is don't let an inability to do a fit test discourage you from upgrading, even if the benefit is only marginal instead of perfect. Nobody should be wearing cloth/surgical masks at this point.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:33
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For the purpose that you are using it (viral protection) a mask that doesn't fit offers little to no benefit over a piece of cloth. FFP2s are also not rated for direct viral contact even if it fits correctly. It is literally my job to teach people about this. All it is doing is giving you the perception of safety while not making you safer. If that's what you want fill your boots.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:44
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serious gaylord posted:A mask that doesn't fit is still letting things in. You are literally the only person I've ever seen, anywhere, say this, so I'm gonna keep wearing my n95, ta
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Apr 22, 2022 14:46
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OzyMandrill posted:But they're not dead, so according to Boris, it's all ok. Boris has at least succeeded in his dream of looking Churchillian, in that everyone looking into him finds out he's a complete monster, but in the future anyone trying to point it out will be attacked by Sesquipælia Rees-Mogg III for destroying British history and trying to reignite the great Statue Wars of the 2020s.
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Apr 22, 2022 14:46
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serious gaylord posted:For the purpose that you are using it (viral protection) a mask that doesn't fit offers little to no benefit over a piece of cloth. FFP2s are also not rated for direct viral contact even if it fits correctly. That doesn't seem to be supported by the literature. You can see a study from last year on the real world use of masks in reducing covid infection (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7106e1.htm), and a recent long discussion of the mechanics of masks with a focus on N95 types ( https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.chas.1c00016). My interpretation of both is that a poor fit reduces the effectiveness, and the second paper suggests that bad fit is the single biggest reduction in effectiveness for N95 masks. But they still work better than cloth or nothing, as do surgical masks. And there is at least one good scenario to wear a surgical mask: if you are infected with covid and the aim is to protect others around you. Also there is the suggestion, though evidence seems weak, that the filters in N95 can harbour viruses and lead to reaerosolisation, so if you are not changing them often you may pose a risk to others. Still, I confess that I'm not an expert in this and would rather follow the advice of people who are than base my actions off reading a couple papers.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:00
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I hadn't seen those studies before and this hasn't made its way into industry and manufactures literature as yet. I'm happy to be corrected on it.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:10
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The real answer is that everyone should be wearing cloth masks, rather than that some small number of people should be wearing WIN95.exe masks. Also buildings should up their ventilation. We'd achieve a lot more by spending time spreading that than by dressing for ebola.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:10
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Again just thinking about it for five minutes makes it hard to see how a mask that attaches to your face better and has a better filter medium could be no different from one with neither, even if not perfectly fitted?Guavanaut posted:The real answer is that everyone should be wearing cloth masks, rather than that some small number of people should be wearing WIN95.exe masks. Yes but as I have not yet figured out how to build the psychic dominator to make that happen I would like to not be sick in the interim if possible.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:11
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Expert advice vs personal research is an interesting question I think. "Do your own research" is the cry of a lot of conspiracy theorists and pseudoscientists, and if you accept that you can't possibly be a subject matter expert in every topic then by default you have to defer to expert advice in many cases. Medical statistics in particular is a pretty difficult and opaque field that few people are well equipped to navigate. But of course following the scientific consensus requires trusted channels by which that advice is propagated, and if you can't trust your government for instance, how do you best access the latest and greatest scientific findings without trying to read the journals and interpreting the results yourself? There's also the problem that even a theoretical perfectly trustworthy and benevolent government that aims to propagate the best possible advice does not have your personal best interests in mind - it considers the interests of the population at large. That means that an approach aiming to preserve a normal level of public life and social interaction at the cost of higher infection rates might plausibly be entirely rational and justified on a national scale, but it's little comfort to you if you're one of the ones who is being hurt by this greater good policy, and your best move might still not be to follow that advice.
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Apr 22, 2022 15:12
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Guavanaut posted:The real answer is that everyone should be wearing cloth masks, rather than that some small number of people should be wearing WIN95.exe masks. Agreed - but unfortunately, that's not on the cards and probably never ever will be I hate that I am forced into purely individualistic strategies but what choice do we have at this point?
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Apr 22, 2022 15:17
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serious gaylord posted:I hadn't seen those studies before and this hasn't made its way into industry and manufactures literature as yet. Yeah this just doesn't pass basic scrutiny (though obviously results can be counter-intuitive) (MacIntyre et al 2011,Influenza) shows pretty convincing evidence of fit factor not offering statically significant difference (though it could be underpowered because most of the HCWs were using them pretty well), and (O'Kelly et. al,2021, PLoS One) argues the opposite, but imo it's a terribly-written paper based on seven participants that doesn't support its argument very well. COVID infection is probabilistic, if you're going to say that a more permeable, more loosely constructed mask is equivalent to a certified filtration mask with equivalent fit factor, then you're going to have to suggest a mechanism for how that would work
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Apr 22, 2022 15:20
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