|
PhazonLink posted:This is another paypal guy right? I was going to do the FTFY thing and edit your post that he's a rich son with millioions or billions from his parents, but skimming wikipedia I'm not sure about his family histroy/wealth. Thiel's parents were immigrants from Germany and his dad was a chemical engineer. They weren't poor, but he wasn't inheriting millions or billions. He got his money by selling Paypal and then investing a bunch of it.
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 06:41 |
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:What happens if these counties decide to just not maintain Disney's roads? They already don't. Disney (or rather their self-funded administration organization) does it themselves. Like, it's bizarre to see folks tie themselves in knots to the extent that they're arguing that Floridians ought to be subsidizing Disney's infrastructure.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:52
|
|
|
Baronash posted:They already don't. Disney (or rather their self-funded administration organization) does it themselves. Okay but that's actually what this law does right so I'm asking what happens when this law goes through and the money is not paid? To reiterate someone suggested that it might have helped the people of these counties, who are suddenly being sent a large bill, if the minimum wage were increased so the people of the counties have more money. Leon pointed out that this bill would be doing immediately so wage increases may not be timely even if they could be achieved. But what's actually going to happen when that bill comes due? I don't think minimum wage increases being untimely is a good counter argument specifically because they can't pay the bill either way and so whoever this bill is owed to is going to have to... I don't know. Set up a payment plan where then the wages do matter again? Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Apr 22, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:53
|
|
|
Yawgmoft posted:I love how you've solved nothing and you're so proud of yourself. You've still burdened them more than their neighbors who now have far more spending power than them either way, you haven't solved any actual issue you are just allowing the government to get away with abuse of power, and we can't even pass a 15 dollar minimum wage so this isn't even viable. Ok, so is there a better path to disrupting disney's literal corporate fiefdom within the united states that the Democrats are looking at pursing at the federal level? Or do we just have to accept the hierarchy that Disney is its own law because if we changed it ever it would hurt people in those counties?
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:53
|
|
|
Ramrod Hotshot posted:Maybe Thiel is old news around here but I never knew that much about him. What I really didn't know is that Blake Masters and JD Vance, who both have a pretty good chance of being US Senators, aren't just in his pocket but fully invested in his cult which I can best sum up as "groypers with martini glasses." Well, Dasha has Succession if she ever feels like she needs to bail.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:53
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:Okay but that's actually what this law does right so I'm asking what happens when this law goes through and the money is not paid Disney sues the county governments for failing to provide utility services and wins handily.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:55
|
|
|
Yawgmoft posted:I love how you've solved nothing and you're so proud of yourself. You've still burdened them more than their neighbors who now have far more spending power than them either way, you haven't solved any actual issue you are just allowing the government to get away with abuse of power, and we can't even pass a 15 dollar minimum wage so this isn't even viable. Good point, it should be "why do Democrats constantly allow this to happen while promising to stop it?" Or "why are Democrats allowing Republicans to hurt the workers of Florida?" but blaming it all on just Democrats would be terrible. Thankfully no one seems to be doing that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:55
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:You're not sure how a higher wage is relevant to the problem that the people of these counties are expected to shoulder increased costs? I'm not sure there's much more we can add to explain it to you. Are those costs going to not be there with a higher wage? It's good and we should push for it but not really relevant as a solution.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:56
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Ok, so is there a better path to disrupting disney's literal corporate fiefdom within the united states that the Democrats are looking at pursing at the federal level? Or do we just have to accept the hierarchy that Disney is its own law because if we changed it ever it would hurt people in those counties? disney managing their own sewer plant and monorail system isn't a big deal, turns out. why is it a problem that requires national attention? before right now, were you aware that the federal government is largely blocked from interfering in home rule and how states delegate the creation of local jurisdictions within themselves? disney has to manage all of this infrastructure as a public agency with transparent budgets and it effectively self-taxes its own property via a weird public agency/subsidiary thing. its an odd setup but its harmless except for the idea of corporations having property i guess, i'm not sure what the actual practical problem is here Baronash posted:Disney sues the county governments for failing to provide utility services and wins handily. i dont see disney pissing off the local governments, more likely the mouse just quietly starts cutting blank checks Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Apr 22, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:56
|
|
|
Baronash posted:Disney sues the county governments for failing to provide utility services and wins handily. Okay but what do they win and how do they collect the judgment? The county isn't going to suddenly have the money that Disney needs them to have. Maybe they can just implement a tax that happens to affect Disney the most and covers the costs that Disney was already paying. Maybe Disney can just donate the same amount of money to them that Disney was already paying on upkeep?
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:57
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Ok, so is there a better path to disrupting disney's literal corporate fiefdom within the united states that the Democrats are looking at pursing at the federal level? Or do we just have to accept the hierarchy that Disney is its own law because if we changed it ever it would hurt people in those counties? Disney got most of the benefit of Reed Creek via land transfers in 1967. The main benefits of Reedy Creek Development District today are just that they can control the local zoning rules, so they don't have to approve new hotels or whatever outside of the park grounds. It's "fiefdom" is basically just that it doesn't pay county taxes, has approval of local zoning rights, and it has to pay for all of its county services, police, EMS, trash, maintenance, etc. Only 27 adults (plus another dozen kids) in total live there and they are all Disney corporate staff who work there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:58
|
|
|
Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:disney managing their own sewer plant and monorail system isn't a big deal, turns out. why is it a problem that requires national attention? before right now, were you aware that the federal government is largely blocked from interfering in home rule and how states delegate the creation of local jurisdictions within themselves? disney managing their own cryptocurrency isn't a big deal, turns out. why is it a problem that requires national attention? disney managing their own energy infrastructure isn't a big deal, turns out. why is it a problem that requires national attention? disney managing their own neighborhoods isn't a big deal, turns out. why is it a problem that requires national attention? disney managing their own grocery stores isn't a big deal, turns out. why is it a problem that requires national attention? disney managing their own- 
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 14:59
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Disney got most of the benefit of Reed Creek via land transfers in 1967. The main benefits of Reedy Creek Development District today are just that they can control the local zoning rules, so they don't have to approve new hotels or whatever outside of the park grounds. reedy creek pays taxes to the county for non-district services like public schools. the really shiny infrastructure in the district is paid for because disney taxes itself at a really politically unfeasibly high rate, which you can do when you don't have voters in your district to object. dissolving the district is effectively a tax cut for disney, even if disney was paying those taxes to themselves so you don't actually know what the RCID does or the implications of dissolving it, you're just getting played by ron desantis. thanks for confirming i guess Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Apr 22, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:03
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:Okay but what do they win and how do they collect the judgment? The county isn't going to suddenly have the money that Disney needs them to have. Seems like the easiest solution would just be to let Disney keep paying for all of their own stuff in exchange for preventing people from building hotels or other businesses within 2 miles of Disney World instead of trying to find a way to get every person to shoulder $2,200 worth of costs for Disney for no reason. But, for your questions specifically: 1) They will still have the money. They will just be legally obligated to use it to provide Disney the county services it is owed and they would take it from somewhere else they aren't legally obligated to pay a judgement to until the next year when they pass a new budget to incorporate the new costs and taxes + make up the shortfall from the previous year. 2) This is exactly what they would likely do the next year. 3) Disney could, but doing all of this in the hope that a for-profit corporation will donate all of the money instead of taking a free $2.2 billion for their trouble seems like bad planning.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:06
|
|
|
Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:reedy creek pays taxes to the county for non-district services like public schools. the really shiny infrastructure in the district is paid for because disney taxes itself at a really politically unfeasibly high rate, which you can do when you don't have voters in your district to object. dissolving the district is effectively a tax cut for disney, even if disney was paying those taxes to themselves More specifically, I don't care what RCID does. Disney has a government-approved fiefdom. That's wrong. And I don't give a fat rat's rear end who takes that privilege away from them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:08
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:To reiterate someone suggested that it might have helped the people of these counties, who are suddenly being sent a large bill, if the minimum wage were increased so the people of the counties have more money. Harold Fjord posted:Okay but what do they win and how do they collect the judgment? The county isn't going to suddenly have the money that Disney needs them to have. In the least patronizing way possible: Are you sure you actually understand what the Reedy Creek district does? Disney effectively provides utilities and basic local services to themselves. That's it. In exchange, they get to handle their own zoning. Your suggestion is a wild technocratic approach to maybe end up in the same place if everything goes perfectly, and that's excluding the (presumably made in good faith) suggestion that the local governments just...decide not to provide legally-obligated services  ."Hmmm, there's this special administrative district where the sole major resident handles essential services and has done so for decades. I think it'd be better if we suddenly shoved that burden onto four adjacent counties and just assume that they'd love to handle the obscene bureaucratic headache we just threw in their laps." Baronash fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Apr 22, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:10
|
|
|
Not a proper company town if it's paying its workers in USD, doesn't sound like this arrangement is much different than most big universities have with the cities they are located in tbh, not to say that's necessarily good of course and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the language of this messaging bill was copied over from the various threats to these arrangements that GOP state parties have made before. It's a long favored tactic. As far as the workers are concerned, I doubt anything from this would register during any of their shifts considering how high the levels of insanity must be in a company that both has a 900 page book of exactly how their characters can be drawn or portrayed yet also tolerates the Kingdom Hearts franchise to exist. The one person I know who went down there to work said it was quite the nightmare but didn't mention sewage maintenance contracts
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:12
|
|
|
I'm not saying it's better I'm saying it seems to be what's happening and exploring how it can be dealt with.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:13
|
|
|
The corporate history of Disney as a whole is insanely corrupt; when Walt was scouting places to built his park, the Florida government wasn't allowing anyone to buy up that much open green space at once, so Walt created shell companies within shell companies within shell companies to buy up individual parcels of land that in aggregate came to be what is the RCID district today. The company acquired the land by skirting the state government, it's time Pluto is brought to heel
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:16
|
|
|
At the very least consider the implications of converting Disney World from one district to four, with internal borders running through the park and four separate civil services that now have to cooperate to manage it
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:16
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:The most disgusting thing I've seen over all this Disney business is the Twitter shitlib brigade lining up to fight on Disney's behalf. The enemy of your enemy can still be an rear end in a top hat and you are under no obligation to defend them or side with them. This. I live in Florida and have a burning for hatred for the Disney corporation, that godforsaken amusement park and certainly Ron DeSantis. Watching them get into this pissing contest is like a wrestling match with two tag team heels facing off and, hating them both, my rooting interests here are conflicted. I didn't know that Disney operates basically as its own little mini county/government either. It's also weird that the party of "corporations are people", who can do whatever the gently caress they want when it's Hobby Lobby, CHic Fil A or some bigoted cake baker, suddenly takes a turn when it's a company being LBQT friendly. And say what you want about Disney, they do in fact have a pretty strong record when it comes to the gay community and have for some time. And I know it seems like a win/win for the Governor regardless but loving with Disney World still strikes me as a pretty stupid move. Almost the entire economy here is tourism based so I'm not sure why you'd wanna dick around with the biggest tourist destination and money maker in the state. That'd be like Tennessee getting into a weird feud with Dollywood; which now that I think about it and given the poo poo Tennessee has been getting up to, I wouldn't be shocked to see happen. "What's actually in all those so-called children's books you hand out, Dolly?" This is so loving weird with this obsession with gayness though. God drat, I keep thinking that battle has been settled. My whole life, it feels like we have to keep dragging these morons kicking and screaming towards anything resembling social and cultural progress. Gay marriage didn't destroy society and repealing Dont Ask, Don't Tell didn't ruin the military. Interracial marriage was a big thing when I was growing up (stick to your own kind) but we made it. The gently caress is wrong with these people? They take one ambiguous line from the bible and just ignore everything else. And this growing fascination with everything and everyone being pedophiles is just loving bizarre.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:16
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:The corporate history of Disney as a whole is insanely corrupt; when Walt was scouting places to built his park, the Florida government wasn't allowing anyone to buy up that much open green space at once, so Walt created shell companies within shell companies within shell companies to buy up individual parcels of land that in aggregate came to be what is the RCID district today. The company acquired the land by skirting the state government, it's time Pluto is brought to heel It's already not a planet anymore, must we kick a planetoid while its down
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:17
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:Not a proper company town it is entirely a company town, in that disney has a carve out to operate as their own local government, that's the whole definition of a company town. it's got nothing to do with scrip the trick here is that they only use this power for making sure the roads and drains and things are all in good order, so its a really boring corporate privilege to have. basically disney can dial a large portion of their local taxes to whatever level necessary to build a new road or something without needing to get the county's approval first. the downside, if you can call it that, is that all the books are public and disney has to pay for it by taxing themselves because this portion of the park has to be run as a public governmental agency. its a weird setup for sure that only exists because old walt had weird dreams of futurism but he died and its still handy, when you're running a giant resort complex, to be able to regulate/operate your own construction and utilities
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:17
|
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:The gently caress is wrong with these people? They take one ambiguous line from the bible and just ignore everything else. And this growing fascination with everything and everyone being pedophiles is just loving bizarre. I'm working on a master post about it, but the short version is that a long time ago some tribal dudes noticed sexual dimorphism and decided that that meant that they needed to "optimize" activities in a way that meant they didn't have to do anymore of the not fun chores. From there it's one long Dunning Kruger worship of competitive strategies that are no longer remotely relevant.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:20
|
|
|
Also worth mentioning that while everyone is going on about the threat to all the jobs in Orlando, Disney treats its workers like absolute poo poo. Maybe not quite Amazon levels of indentured servitude but right up there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:20
|
|
|
Speaking of company towns and Disney wasn't Disney trying to make a "park" in the form of a town that people would live in but everyone but some of the "guests" who lived there full-time were employees putting on an act for them? What happened to that?
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:20
|
|
|
I'm sure if you guys keep screaming "COMPANY TOWN" and "CORPORATE FIEFDOM" over and over again, it'll start to make sense to the rest of us why this naked retaliatory gesture by a far-right government for opposing the dehumanization of LGBT people is a good thing, actually Again, we are talking about zoning and the provision of utilities. Disney does not get to enforce its own laws in RCID. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:21
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:I'm not saying it's better I'm saying it seems to be what's happening and exploring how it can be dealt with. disney paid for all the fancy rear end roads and ditches in the magic kingdom by taxing themselves at a rate much higher than the local government is able to tax. the local government will not be able to raise taxes to the same level to compensate. RCID also carries a ponderous amount of public debt which would be stupid to carry if you weren't effectively a subsidiary of a multinational corporation. the local governments must, by law, now assume these debts effectively disney is getting a tax cut and their local debts discharged. the worst thing that will happen to disney is that disneyworld infrastructure goes to pot due to neglect, and that its more of a headache to get new roads built. meanwhile, the residents of the local communities are staring at a steep increase in public expenditure, and the only way out of it is a combo of tax increases and service cuts. but if you frame this as putting a corporation in their place you can get people to applaud a direct attack against the working class in the.... name of... anti-corporatism? no, it doesn't make sense
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:22
|
|
|
Mellow Seas posted:I'm sure if you guys keep screaming "COMPANY TOWN" and "CORPORATE FIEFDOM" over again, it'll start to make sense to the rest of us why this naked retaliatory gesture by a far-right government for opposing the dehumanization of LGBT people is a good thing, actually I'm sure if you guys keep screaming "NAKED RETALIATORY GESTURE" and "FAR-RIGHT GOVERNMENT" over again, it'll start to make sense to the rest of us why this corporate fiefdom with no real governmental oversight is a good thing, actually
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:23
|
|
|
Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:it is entirely a company town, in that disney has a carve out to operate as their own local government, that's the whole definition of a company town. it's got nothing to do with scrip Scrip has everything to do with being a company town. Any of the Disney employees who live in the RCID can take their pay and go anywhere else in the country and spend it on whatever they want. A real company town doesn't let you do that RBA Starblade posted:Speaking of company towns and Disney wasn't Disney trying to make a "park" in the form of a town that people would live in but everyone but some of the "guests" who lived there full-time were employees putting on an act for them? What happened to that? That's still happening, they call it Storyliving and it doesn't seem to have an opening date yet
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:23
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:Speaking of company towns and Disney wasn't Disney trying to make a "park" in the form of a town that people would live in but everyone but some of the "guests" who lived there full-time were employees putting on an act for them? What happened to that? Ever been to the Epcot Center? Congrats, you stood in the City of Tomorrow.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:23
|
|
|
Who's going to stop Disney from just maintaining their roads as normal? I hope they make Desantis send in the Florida national guard
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:23
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:Speaking of company towns and Disney wasn't Disney trying to make a "park" in the form of a town that people would live in but everyone but some of the "guests" who lived there full-time were employees putting on an act for them? What happened to that? I think that was the Star Wars Experience or whatever, or specifically a hotel set up to be a weeklong interactive experience. It was a bit of a black eye for them because despite being like 20k a head it was very half assed looking in the first photos of it that weren't mock-ups. I was under the impression it was basically just turning a hotel into a 24/7 interactive theater but I wouldn't be surprised if the property was registered as a cruise liner running a Panamanian flag
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:24
|
|
|
"They only use the special powers granted to them exclusively to do basic normal things" is really not an endorsement of continuing to allow a private company to dictate its own governance, sorry. "Iran only wants nuclear technology to defend itself!"
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:24
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:Speaking of company towns and Disney wasn't Disney trying to make a "park" in the form of a town that people would live in but everyone but some of the "guests" who lived there full-time were employees putting on an act for them? What happened to that? are you talking about celebration? that's a different dumb ball of wax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebration,_Florida Harold Fjord posted:Who's going to stop Disney from just maintaining their roads as normal? its all county property now, people generally don't maintain public infrastructure for free, just because. a stopgap solution would be the county working out a special district deal with disney to maintain infrastructure between the parks but then we've just reinstituted the status quo because it makes financial sense Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Apr 22, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:24
|
|
|
Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:it is entirely a company town, in that disney has a carve out to operate as their own local government, that's the whole definition of a company town. it's got nothing to do with scrip The zoning thing is the one aspect that is a clear advantage for Disney. They don't want people building hotels next to Disney World to compete with their resorts or for people to open up a strip club or bar next door to disturb the immersion of the park and the brand. They would be very annoyed to lose the zoning rights, but they wouldn't actually be hurt by it unless the local counties all started agreeing to let other people build houses, hotels, and strip clubs next to Disney World. The primary effect would be a large tax cut for Disney, but also make it more annoying for Disney to manage the park because they would have to coordinate and get approval from the local county governments to do their large and specialized infrastructure projects or build new portions of the park. I doubt the county governments would really be a problem in that regard, but you never know, and Disney thinks paying for everything themselves is worth it to not have to deal with the county government and to keep its infrastructure much nicer, more expensive, and specialized than a normal county government would provide. So, there is a very good chance that it would just end up as a weird stealth tax cut for Disney instead of hurting them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:26
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:Speaking of company towns and Disney wasn't Disney trying to make a "park" in the form of a town that people would live in but everyone but some of the "guests" who lived there full-time were employees putting on an act for them? What happened to that? Hank Scorpio got found out https://apnews.com/article/biden-business-elections-presidential-election-2020-0c132e86207caa4a47886c368a15d00d quote:A new poll by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research finds just 45% of Americans approve and 54% disapprove of how Biden is handling the presidency. The approval rate in the poll taken from April 14-18 is about the same as last month, but down from the president’s 63% approval rating a year ago.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:27
|
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:It's also weird that the party of "corporations are people", who can do whatever the gently caress they want when it's Hobby Lobby, CHic Fil A or some bigoted cake baker, suddenly takes a turn when it's a company being LBQT friendly. And say what you want about Disney, they do in fact have a pretty strong record when it comes to the gay community and have for some time. Do you understand that this is why people are defending Disney? Because now DeSantis is setting the precedent of direct retaliation against companies that do act with any positive action opposite the GOP culture war. Republicans have now decided they don't need to make "wokeness" illegal, they can just directly punish you financially for "being woke". This will not actually harm the companies themselves in any meaningful way. It will only harm their employees and the public. Because they 100% are willing to kowtow to Republicans at the expense of their employees and the public if it means their bottom line. Not one person who is rich because of Disney will lose a single dollar over this regardless of any way that Disney responds. Xombie fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Apr 22, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:27
|
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:
I don’t think it’s strange given that the goal of the modern day Republican Party is a fascist take over. They longed stop caring about the appearance of hypocrisy and turned it into a benefit of theirs as it’s something they use against liberals. I don’t really care one way or another with the Disney nonsense but I won’t waste a brain cell defending Disney. As for “chilling effect”, that ship sailed since the W administration.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 06:41 |
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:So, there is a very good chance that it would just end up as a weird stealth tax cut for Disney instead of hurting them. its not a very good chance, this is entirely what is going to happen. the combined millage within reedy creek is like 13.5 which is an eye watering tax rate. orange county tops out at like 8.3 once you add up all the tax districts. disney would rather pay the higher taxes to itself to pay for the infrastructure, but in the short term disneyworld pays lower taxes
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2022 15:29
|
|