The US will lose WW3

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > The US will lose WW3

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Danann: Aug 4, 2013

Can't just leave us hanging like that. Got a link?

# ? Apr 23, 2022 20:39

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# ? May 24, 2024 05:07

Southpaugh: May 26, 2007; Smokey Bacon

Frosted Flake posted:

I thought this was pretty interesting and wasn�t sure where else to post it.

I have access to the PE of Command Modern Operations but never use it because I�m not an air or naval guy, and other than research for a paper on �Field Artillery in the Coastal Role� have not read too much on boat stuff. Anyways I was going through their databases, checking out the modern Chinese navy, whatever whatever it seemed neat. You know, impressive how quickly they built those two new carriers, taking a look at their new ASMs. PE has hypersonic weapons in the database but I barely understand CMO let alone the actual systems.

It turns out there is a huge Chinese community for CMO/CMANO. Like, massive forum, just on CMO, that has posters painstakingly translating not just the game - including decrypting the exe and database files to add localization - but translating the names of all of these western weapons systems, their descriptions, and then translating western reference books and papers too. Their reference book thread is pretty amazing, and that they found and translated all of this stuff on their own, wow.

I don�t know if Grogs are a thing in China, or if these are university students or whatever, but the work that went into understanding naval affairs, just to play this English language game with no localization, it�s incredible.

All of that to say, I would guess the Chinese people are really proud of and engaged with their Navy. It kind of reminds me of the 1910�s when there were books like Jane�s for regular people since the British public wanted to know every ship in the Royal Navy and the latest developments in ship design.

Forum is called something like The Operational Art of War, which is confusing since TOAW is already the name of a completely different wargame in English.

dudes rock

# ? Apr 23, 2022 20:58

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

It was toaw.org and moved. Not all of their old content is on toaw.net yet, and they use a weird Chinese wayback machine to post archived content from the .org. The issues is the links often break when chrome is displaying a page translated to English, and I can�t read Chinese.

Here�s someone posting all of the complex steps to localize, which involves a hex editor, a database editor, and a bunch of other computer stuff I don�t understand - https://toscode.gitee.com/LokiSharp/CMANO-CN-v1.14-b998.12

# ? Apr 23, 2022 21:24

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Frosted Flake posted:

I thought this was pretty interesting and wasn�t sure where else to post it.

I have access to the PE of Command Modern Operations but never use it because I�m not an air or naval guy, and other than research for a paper on �Field Artillery in the Coastal Role� have not read too much on boat stuff. Anyways I was going through their databases, checking out the modern Chinese navy, whatever whatever it seemed neat. You know, impressive how quickly they built those two new carriers, taking a look at their new ASMs. PE has hypersonic weapons in the database but I barely understand CMO let alone the actual systems.

It turns out there is a huge Chinese community for CMO/CMANO. Like, massive forum, just on CMO, that has posters painstakingly translating not just the game - including decrypting the exe and database files to add localization - but translating the names of all of these western weapons systems, their descriptions, and then translating western reference books and papers too. Their reference book thread is pretty amazing, and that they found and translated all of this stuff on their own, wow.

I don�t know if Grogs are a thing in China, or if these are university students or whatever, but the work that went into understanding naval affairs, just to play this English language game with no localization, it�s incredible.

All of that to say, I would guess the Chinese people are really proud of and engaged with their Navy. It kind of reminds me of the 1910�s when there were books like Jane�s for regular people since the British public wanted to know every ship in the Royal Navy and the latest developments in ship design.

Forum is called something like The Operational Art of War, which is confusing since TOAW is already the name of a completely different wargame in English.

This is kinda tangential but I like the story: the Cold War themed card-driven game Twilight Struggle had a big English-language community driven in part by community-made online tools (primarily in English), which developed into the usual formulation of various strategies and openings etc. But a few years back they put out an official adaptation on Steam that included Chinese language support, and it turned out that the game was also super popular in China and had developed a completely different meta strategy, which at least initially caught a lot of English players off guard

# ? Apr 23, 2022 21:31

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

The Chinese having a strategy for the Cold War no English person anticipates seems remarkably on brand. iirc from the Eurasia thread, Chinese academics have done a lot of work on the fall of the Soviet Union. I imagine some of what they learned kind of diffused out to the public, which would mean that how they approach a game on the Cold War would be different.

Very cool, I had no idea that Twilight Struggle had a computer version, and that story was great.

# ? Apr 23, 2022 21:55

Stairmaster: Jun 8, 2012

theres also a huge chinese fandom for the hoi4 post-axis victory cold war mod the new order. lots of long yun hype

# ? Apr 23, 2022 22:43

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

You can find a fandom for anything https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1vA411Y7VJ

# ? Apr 24, 2022 00:16

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Frosted Flake posted:

The Chinese having a strategy for the Cold War no English person anticipates seems remarkably on brand. iirc from the Eurasia thread, Chinese academics have done a lot of work on the fall of the Soviet Union. I imagine some of what they learned kind of diffused out to the public, which would mean that how they approach a game on the Cold War would be different.

Very cool, I had no idea that Twilight Struggle had a computer version, and that story was great.

Twilight Struggle is sufficiently abstract that I don't really know if it's indicative of different historical or cultural attitudes per se. I'm not great at Chinese style but it's broadly focused on opportunistically grabbing victory points in favor of long term board position.

# ? Apr 24, 2022 01:26

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

StashAugustine posted:

I'm not great at Chinese style but it's broadly focused on opportunistically grabbing victory points in favor of long term board position.

Proof positive that the Chinese have no sense for strategy and will shoot themselves in the foot before long.

# ? Apr 24, 2022 10:09

LIVE AMMO COSPLAY: Feb 3, 2006

Endman posted:

No nazis left to make good rockets for them

So the current crop of nazis is making bad rockets then?

# ? Apr 24, 2022 10:34

Rutibex: Sep 9, 2001; by Fluffdaddy

LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:

So the current crop of nazis is making bad rockets then?

neo nazi rocket designs are a bit of a step down

# ? Apr 24, 2022 13:14

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Proof positive that the Chinese have no sense for strategy and will shoot themselves in the foot before long.

It did actually work very well against English style, although I think top players have sort of worked out a hybrid by now

# ? Apr 24, 2022 15:04

Rhandhali: Sep 7, 2003; This is Free Trader Beowulf, calling anyone...; Grimey Drawer

Lostconfused posted:

You can find a fandom for anything https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1vA411Y7VJ

Pu Yi? I have no idea who that is.

# ? Apr 24, 2022 17:03

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

Rhandhali posted:

Pu Yi? I have no idea who that is.

Last emperor of China. Weird dude.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puyi

# ? Apr 24, 2022 17:04

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

StashAugustine posted:

Twilight Struggle is sufficiently abstract that I don't really know if it's indicative of different historical or cultural attitudes per se. I'm not great at Chinese style but it's broadly focused on opportunistically grabbing victory points in favor of long term board position.

huh, that actually makes sense since it forces your opponent to react or lose on victory points

# ? Apr 24, 2022 17:13

Grapplejack: Nov 27, 2007

Cerebral Bore posted:

huh, that actually makes sense since it forces your opponent to react or lose on victory points

It makes sense as both sides, because as the US if you get a bunch of early VPs you're basically guaranteed to win because the endgame is so heavily in your favor and if you're the USSR you can end the game before the midgame because they have so many points early on

# ? Apr 24, 2022 17:31

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

StashAugustine posted:

It did actually work very well against English style, although I think top players have sort of worked out a hybrid by now

Real life is not a game.

# ? Apr 24, 2022 17:37

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

Fish of hemp posted:

Are you really saying that you would have preferred Eurofighter?

I would have preferred they didn't spend the money on MIC grift. I don't know much about the Eurofighter beyond what I learned playing TFX in the '90s, but at the time the F-35 was most notable for spontaneous combustion, problems with rain and being the most expensive military project in history. :shrug:

# ? Apr 26, 2022 13:40

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

I'm glad Canada is bad at military procurement because I welcome America and all it's running lapdogs losing WW3.

# ? Apr 26, 2022 14:04

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

It�s more that we are uniquely susceptible to diplomatic pressure

# ? Apr 26, 2022 14:17

Palladium: May 8, 2012; Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

Frosted Flake posted:

It�s more that we are uniquely susceptible to diplomatic pressure

that's a weird way of putting "spineless lapdog"

# ? Apr 26, 2022 18:43

Wheeee: Mar 11, 2001; When a tree grows, it is soft and pliable. But when it's dry and hard, it dies.

Hardness and strength are death's companions. Flexibility and softness are the embodiment of life.

That which has become hard shall not triumph.

it�s fine, as america crumbles canada will simply become a vassal state to china

# ? Apr 27, 2022 00:18

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

Frosted Flake posted:

It�s more that we are uniquely susceptible to diplomatic pressure

Doesn't the Canadian government keep getting sued by arms manufacturers to redo arms selection procedures? In a properly functioning state the government just buys whatever arms it chooses.

In other news, the USN wants to scrap it's Ticonderoga class cruisers and use Arleigh Burkes in their role. The former can reach Taiwan from Hawaii without refueling while the later cannot. Just completely psychologically unprepared for a war with anything approaching a peer because they've never fought one.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/navy-plans-to-rid-itself-of-cruisers-in-just-five-years

# ? Apr 27, 2022 03:34

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

you can refuel underway tho.

I�ve done it, it�s called an �unrep�

# ? Apr 27, 2022 04:13

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

See my comment about facing a peer in a war. Heck even counting on Hawaii as a refueling station seems doubtful.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 05:12

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

There were a bunch of papers and articles about the USN having a range problem and being unprepared in the defence press but I don�t understand boat stuff

# ? Apr 27, 2022 05:16

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

if you think about it boats are just large self propelled guns that travel on water instead of land

# ? Apr 27, 2022 06:05

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

Maybe 100 years ago, grandpa.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 06:20

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Weka posted:

See my comment about facing a peer in a war. Heck even counting on Hawaii as a refueling station seems doubtful.

all those PREPOs can unrep. the range thing isn�t as bad as it seems.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 06:23

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

speaking of PREPOs when I went looking on AIS for the current thing to statisfy my curiosity, I noticed that when they turn off AIS several put NUNYA as their destination.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 06:31

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

oh unrelated marine traffic is still tracking all the RUS commercial stuff that turned AIS off. I don�t know if they are putting it on the website though and I�m too lazy to check.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 06:36

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Danann posted:

if you think about it boats are just large self propelled guns that travel on water instead of land

The US should revive the USS Alaska

And then after that the Montana-class battleships

# ? Apr 27, 2022 06:56

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

Bar Ran Dun posted:

all those PREPOs can unrep. the range thing isn�t as bad as it seems.

Seems like the ability to do that might get pretty quickly degraded in a shooting war.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 07:47

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

Stairmaster posted:

theres also a huge chinese fandom for the hoi4 post-axis victory cold war mod the new order. lots of long yun hype

any game with modding by definition will have a huge chinese fandom because of the large market and necessary translation. Its not just HOI.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 09:27

lobotomy molo: May 7, 2007; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Danann posted:

if you think about it boats are just large self propelled guns that travel on water instead of land

battleships are just tank destroyers with fancy marketing :hmmyes:

# ? Apr 27, 2022 10:32

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

Battleships are tanks, missile destroyers are tank destroyers.

# ? Apr 27, 2022 11:03

Goon Boots: Feb 2, 2020

Frosted Flake posted:

I don�t know if Grogs are a thing in China, or if these are university students or whatever, but the work that went into understanding naval affairs, just to play this English language game with no localization, it�s incredible.

grognards reproduce asexually and spontaneously appear in any country introduced to map games

# ? Apr 27, 2022 11:48

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Danann posted:

if you think about it boats are just large self propelled guns that travel on water instead of land

I have all of Friedman�s books on naval guns and gunnery, but I meant more the knots and semaphore flags.

Anyways,

The U.S. Navy�s Range Has Diminished Dangerously, America's Carriers Are Being Hamstrung By A Range Problem, CARRIER WOES: THE NAVY�S FIGHTERS CAN�T REACH CHINA, GRADUALLY AND THEN SUDDENLY: EXPLAINING THE NAVY�S STRATEGIC BANKRUPTCY, On the Eve of Destruction, The Art of Unreasonable Expectations, Forfeiting the Away Game: The Surface Navy�s Diminished Range, Chinese Maritime Strike Capabilities and the Fragility of U.S. Sea Lines of Communication Along the First Island Chain

# ? Apr 27, 2022 13:39

Rutibex: Sep 9, 2001; by Fluffdaddy

We need nuclear powered fighter jets. like those doom missiles that belch out radiation everywhere as they fly around for 100 years

# ? Apr 27, 2022 14:52

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# ? May 24, 2024 05:07

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Weka posted:

Seems like the ability to do that might get pretty quickly degraded in a shooting war.

what nations navy is going to do that in the middle of the pacific?

edit to be more clear I really don�t disagree that this is not a problem actually. it�s just everybody else�s lack of bluewater capability

Bar Ran Dun has issued a correction as of 01:36 on Apr 28, 2022

# ? Apr 28, 2022 01:32

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > The US will lose WW3

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