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Justin Credible posted:He suffers internally for it, but accepts his personal moral failings during the ordeal directly, agreeing with Garak - "Garak was right. A guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the Alpha Quadrant." He also didn't just save the AQ with that. It's arguable that this act saved the Federation itself as well. The Dominion had already been infected. His act may have saved the Dominion as well, in a roundabout way.
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Apr 24, 2022 01:46
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Eimi posted:Oh yeah, it'd require larger changes, but either way being uncommented on never sat right with me. It goes uncommented on, but I think it's actually subtly but intentionally acknowledged. There's still about a quarter of the season left after "In the Pale Moonlight," and for that quarter-season, Sisko isn't really himself, and certainly isn't the hero of the station or the show. The episodes where he's in position to affect the plot are "The Reckoning," where he actually does very little and when he makes a big decision, Winn ends up taking the matter into her own hands and invalidating it; "The Sound of Her Voice," where he bonds with a captain he's trying to save but never actually had a chance to; and, of course, "Tears of the Prophets," where Sisko disregards a warning from the Prophets and, as a direct result, Dukat murders Jadzia and collapses the wormhole, and Sisko freezes in battle, decides he can't handle the war anymore, takes his baseball and leaves, ending the episode cleaning clams behind his father's restaurant. There's no big neon sign saying "this is the cost of those crimes he committed," but after "In the Pale Moonlight," he never does anything heroic and, indeed, is very un-Sisko-like at all for the rest of the season. And he knows it. He wraps up season 6 talking about having failed both as the Emissary and as a Starfleet officer, and it's hard for me to believe that we're not supposed to think his actions with the Romulans played no part in bringing him to the point of failure.
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Apr 24, 2022 02:08
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Binary Badger posted:Ok, more The Directors Cut 4K biatching.. Remember the AU figure doesn't describe the V'ger spacecraft itself, just the powerfield cloud it was emanating. I never had a problem with the cloud being 82 AU wide. It's supposed to be mind-bogglingly vast and powerful even by the standards of an interstellar civilization that routinely harnesses matter-antimatter annihilation. Anyway, I've got gripes with the special edition, but unless they hosed with the theatrical cut BD release I don't think they actually changed the Jovian moon images. Theatrical followed by Special      
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Apr 24, 2022 02:14
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davidspackage posted:I did always think that big red light on top of Sulu's station was kind of unhelpfully vague. I figure it's basically a master alarm - something to warn the crew something needs to be looked at right now. 
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Apr 24, 2022 02:17
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I figure it's basically a master alarm - something to warn the crew something needs to be looked at right now. "Spacedock, we have a problem."
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Apr 24, 2022 03:02
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Remember the AU figure doesn't describe the V'ger spacecraft itself, just the powerfield cloud it was emanating. I never had a problem with the cloud being 82 AU wide. It's supposed to be mind-bogglingly vast and powerful even by the standards of an interstellar civilization that routinely harnesses matter-antimatter annihilation. I don't have much of a problem with it either, it would explain why the Klingons appeared to be hauling rear end away from the cloud but still seemed to take forever to GTFO away from it. 93 million miles still takes quite a while to cross, especially on impulse. I do remember in the theater that the Klingons were being 'de-rezzed' a tiny bit slower than in the 4K edition, to the point they were watching their appendages get digitized before the rest of them and expressing extreme displeasure at this fact.. quote:Theatrical followed by Special Yeah, there's definitely some poo poo going on because I remember in the theater how they used nearly the exact images from Voyager, I remember specifically they included the image of Callisto looking all dark with white craters.. part of the reason everyone cheered around me.. Anyway, I noticed at the end there were additional credits for the 4K edition, it was nice they credited the 2000 edition staff..
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Apr 24, 2022 03:04
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Justin Credible posted:If he admitted it, who would it be to? Starfleet? They approved it. Romulus? All it would do would be to dissolve the newly-forged alliance with Romulus. that's an in universe mistake, Sisko is stupid as hell if he thinks the Romulans would get upset about someone finally speaking their language. In fact, Sisko's tell-all autobiography was the linchpin that brought them back into the Federation and reunited them with the Vulcans.
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Apr 24, 2022 04:08
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Powered Descent posted:"Spacedock, we have a problem." 
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Apr 24, 2022 04:12
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Tunicate posted:that's an in universe mistake, Sisko is stupid as hell if he thinks the Romulans would get upset about someone finally speaking their language. Given that the Romulans agreed to loan a cloaking device to the Federation to investigate the Dominion, and the Tal Shiar assembled a task force to exterminate the Founders, one has to assume there was a sizable faction on Romulus who did see the Dominion as an imminent threat and were quite happy to see that idiot appeaser Vreenak dead and the isolationist faction in the senate discredited.
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Apr 24, 2022 04:40
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Angry Salami posted:Given that the Romulans agreed to loan a cloaking device to the Federation to investigate the Dominion, and the Tal Shiar assembled a task force to exterminate the Founders, one has to assume there was a sizable faction on Romulus who did see the Dominion as an imminent threat and were quite happy to see that idiot appeaser Vreenak dead and the isolationist faction in the senate discredited. Well gently caress me, that is an astute read as well. If some Cardassian data rod survived the complete destruction of the ship, one has to assume a Romulan 'black box' did as well. Vreenak made a secret detour in terms of anyone from the outside looking in, but it's extremely plausible that the detour was discovered in the subsequent investigation. It would be a very short leap for the Romulans to deduce more or less exactly what had transpired and it gave them just what they needed; an unimpeachable casus belli. The Tal'Shiar surely conducted the investigation, and had this knowledge concealed with the highest level of of security clearance possible. Something that may be nothing too; Dax having so much experience, both in diplomacy and war, and the look she gives Sisko when she explains the situation as it appears? She's giving him the exact same look as she had when she was playing the Romulan proconsul when they worked up the fact they needed proof. And here it is, an absolutely perfect situation to turn around the war. I'd wager she knew he made it happen, but would never mention it to him, knowing his character.
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Apr 24, 2022 05:00
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Eimi posted:Oh yeah, it'd require larger changes, but either way being uncommented on never sat right with me. It'd also have lost the Federation the war, since the Romulans would likely have declared war
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Apr 24, 2022 05:14
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I never realized that Excelsior's helmsman was played by a very young Miguel Ferrer.
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Apr 24, 2022 05:43
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Justin Credible posted:If he admitted it, who would it be to? Starfleet? They approved it. Romulus? All it would do would be to dissolve the newly-forged alliance with Romulus. Tunicate posted:that's an in universe mistake, Sisko is stupid as hell if he thinks the Romulans would get upset about someone finally speaking their language. Shortly thereafter, he is sought out by a Romulan representative who strongly implies they know everything that really happened with Vreenak and that it's is why the Romulans are now open to an alliance with the Federation. They had previously considered the Federation too weak to ally with but are changing their minds now that they see the Federation finally learning the value of moral adaptibility. Both of which only gently caress with Sisko's head even more.
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Apr 24, 2022 06:07
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Peyote Panda posted:There was a good DS9 novel "Hollow Men" that was in part about Sisko's on-going struggle with his conscience regarding this incident and this was how it played out in that story. Seeking absolution through punishment, he confesses the full breadth of what happened to his superiors who just respond that it's done, they now have a chance to win the war, and all exposing it now would do is break the alliance and cause a lot more death. That's exactly what I would've wanted to see, so cool that someone else thought it too.
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Apr 24, 2022 07:02
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That sort of moral relativism, and the "hard choices" of war and realpolitik is really boring to me. It's putting some shine on the world order, and almost everything in our media does the exact same thing. Nu-Trek gets poo poo for it now, but probably just because it is written poorly; that sort of thing does appeals to liberals and conservatives alike after all. I much prefer the idealism and utopianism of TNG.
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Apr 24, 2022 11:25
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWHTIN6v9-0
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Apr 24, 2022 16:15
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This is fantastic, but it has led me down a rabbit hole of star trek edits. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq0UFKkZZx0
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Apr 24, 2022 16:30
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thotsky posted:That sort of moral relativism, and the "hard choices" of war and realpolitik is really boring to me. It's putting some shine on the world order, and almost everything in our media does the exact same thing. Nu-Trek gets poo poo for it now, but probably just because it is written poorly; that sort of thing does appeals to liberals and conservatives alike after all. yeah
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Apr 24, 2022 16:49
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There were plenty of moral dilemmas in TNG
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Apr 24, 2022 16:52
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Apr 24, 2022 18:25
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FlamingLiberal posted:There were plenty of moral dilemmas in TNG Right, and they were almost always resolved in favor of consistency with one's principles, or a higher principle of truth or justice, instead of relativist compromise. thotsky posted:That sort of moral relativism, and the "hard choices" of war and realpolitik is really boring to me. It's putting some shine on the world order, and almost everything in our media does the exact same thing. Nu-Trek gets poo poo for it now, but probably just because it is written poorly; that sort of thing does appeals to liberals and conservatives alike after all. It should be boring, because the stock "hard men making hard choices" situation is a hypocritical lie that falls apart if you think about it for more than three seconds. The choice to discard your ethics and compromise your principles for an easier path to victory is as cowardly as it is a shirking of duty and responsibility. There's nothing hard about giving in when things get tough and looking for the easy way out. The typical Star Trek moral dilemma actually is hard, because it requires the inner strength to set aside ego, examine conflicts from every perspective and strive for peaceful solutions whenever possible. And it often requires a "hard choice", up to and including the protagonists destroying themselves to uphold their principles or to defend the helpless, even strangers who will never know their sacrifice, instead of engaging in soulless realpolitik. McSpanky fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 18:32
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This is the type of quality Star Trek content that I've come to respect from this thread. Thank you, everyone.
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Apr 24, 2022 19:02
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McSpanky posted:Right, and they were almost always resolved in favor of consistency with one's principles, or a higher principle of truth or justice, instead of relativist compromise. Killjoy.
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Apr 24, 2022 19:07
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Actual Satan posted:This is fantastic, but it has led me down a rabbit hole of star trek edits. The direction in this scene is hilariously bad. Not only are the crew being rude by talking over the strategy game, they don't have anything to say!
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Apr 24, 2022 19:08
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jeeves posted:This is the type of quality Star Trek content that I've come to respect from this thread. Thank you, everyone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTkH_UFCY5A
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Apr 24, 2022 20:08
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Arglebargle III posted:The direction in this scene is hilariously bad. Not only are the crew being rude by talking over the strategy game, they don't have anything to say! How good of commentary can you give when you're looking at a postcard saying "add game in post"
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Apr 24, 2022 20:14
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Besides Raffi, which trek characters have definitely tried snakeweed? I think Keiko for sure.
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Apr 24, 2022 21:09
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Keiko has a cute little science glass smoking kit and does these adorable little coughing faces. She also doesn't corner the bowl and never offers to roll up.
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Apr 24, 2022 21:10
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McSpanky posted:Right, and they were almost always resolved in favor of consistency with one's principles, or a higher principle of truth or justice, instead of relativist compromise. idk TNG has a ton of scenarios where they have the obviously morally correct position and Picard just makes a speech check and bats down the obviously wrong and stupid baddie of the episode. The Pale Moonlight aside, DS9's position is that even when the chips are down and there's a temptingly pragmatic case for hard men making hard choices that poo poo's still got to be rejected out of hand and you've got to stick to your principles, which I think's alot more interesting than TNG's easy mode moralising
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Apr 24, 2022 21:52
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Actual Satan posted:Besides Raffi, which trek characters have definitely tried snakeweed? I think Keiko for sure. McCoy, T'Ana, Jadzia, and Chakotay. Geordi tried it once at the Academy and wound up coughing his guts out for three days, embarrassing himself among his peer group. Neelix cooks with it.
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Apr 24, 2022 21:54
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No Dignity posted:idk TNG has a ton of scenarios where they have the obviously morally correct position and Picard just makes a speech check and bats down the obviously wrong and stupid baddie of the episode. The Pale Moonlight aside, DS9's position is that even when the chips are down and there's a temptingly pragmatic case for hard men making hard choices that poo poo's still got to be rejected out of hand and you've got to stick to your principles, which I think's alot more interesting than TNG's easy mode moralising The beauty of DS9 was that they couldn't just warp away from a planet at the end of the episode; they had to live with the choices they made on a multicultural space station where things were rarely as straightforward as they were on the Enterprise. Sometimes that meant hard choices that were morally ambiguous (e.g: In The Pale Moonlight and For The Uniform), but I think Sisko bent Federation morality without it ever really breaking. I agree that it made for a much more interesting show, even though I'm a big TNG fan.
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Apr 24, 2022 21:56
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What about when Sisko attacked civilians to bring in Eddington?
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Apr 24, 2022 22:04
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My personal opinion is that while In The Pale Moonlight is ambiguous because Sisko arguably saved the alpha quadrant, For The Uniform is a more clear cut case of going too far in the pursuit of a single guy. I think reactions vary based on how you see Eddington: is he a freedom fighter? A turncoat? A narcissist who latched on to the Maquis issue to make himself a martyr?
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Apr 24, 2022 22:09
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V-Men posted:What about when Sisko attacked civilians to bring in Eddington? Sisko was being portrayed as dangerously obsessed and Eddington not being entirely wrong with the Javert comparison, that was more just Sisko loving it up than vindication for hard nosed moral relativism
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Apr 24, 2022 22:10
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I still love that Picard bothsidesed his way into the unambiguously worst course of action in Symbiosis
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Apr 24, 2022 23:04
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nine-gear crow posted:McCoy, T'Ana, Jadzia, and Chakotay. Geordi tried it once at the Academy and wound up coughing his guts out for three days, embarrassing himself among his peer group. Riker and Troi too, c'mon now. Mariner and Tendi too. Riker clearly reads as a guy who has done a lot of * things * in his journey's around the galaxy. He is just extremely chill about it.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:22
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McSpanky posted:It should be boring, because the stock "hard men making hard choices" situation is a hypocritical lie that falls apart if you think about it for more than three seconds. The choice to discard your ethics and compromise your principles for an easier path to victory is as cowardly as it is a shirking of duty and responsibility. There's nothing hard about giving in when things get tough and looking for the easy way out. Mmmm I am not sure framing the Dominion to save literally millions of lives is the "easy way out" as opposed to "letting millions of people die" but YMMV
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Apr 24, 2022 23:46
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Tunicate posted:I still love that Picard bothsidesed his way into the unambiguously worst course of action in Symbiosis It’s extremely on brand for Reagan-era attitudes toward addicts though
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Apr 24, 2022 23:51
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Mooseontheloose posted:Riker and Troi too, c'mon now. Everyone thought they had some secret love thing but "imzadi" was a code word for toking up
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Apr 25, 2022 00:01
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Charity Porno posted:Mmmm I am not sure framing the Dominion to save literally millions of lives is the "easy way out" as opposed to "letting millions of people die" but YMMV Billions. Just because of an episode's length, I don't think they had time to explore the particular point I'm about to make, BUT. I think that if Sisko could have sacrificed his life to achieve the same outcome, he would have, and not even entertained the more morally grey/black option.
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Apr 25, 2022 00:04
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