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Guavanaut posted:Yes, if we could have held referenda on every single one of the EU treaties similarly to how Ireland did and had a press environment that wasn't entirely captured by a handful of extremely powerful people, rather than running an all or nothing off the back of two other "status quo wins again David Cameron forever" referenda then things would definitely have been different. Britain didn't really have the material conditions to delever that at any point in the past 40 years though. idk what point I'm making here, it's just a reminder e: 152=2^3x19. I thought I was gonna get a nice elegant prime factorisation there for a moment, but eh
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Apr 25, 2022 11:19
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There was also no small amount of left wing agitation against Lisbon, but yeah I think you have to go back to Maastricht and Copenhagen in '92 to really make people feel like they had some sort of a say in the EU project. Otherwise you just get 30 years of every oval office blaming everything that goes wrong on "oh well that was an EU directive so we couldn't do anything else" and then mysteriously people blame the EU for their circumstances.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:25
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Lungboy posted:I agree with this, and Cameron should have put a minimum % result before anything was actioned or just said "it's advisory so we'll look into it" but instead he ran off and May went fully hardcore Brexit must be delivered. Not sure Labour could have done anything at all to alter that. Once that was done, telling people they were stupid and/or wrong with their first vote so we need a second was electoral suicide. Yep. There was an interview almost immediately after the result with the Italian ambassador (IIRC) who could barely talk he was laughing so hard at how hard we'd punched ourselves in the dick. Basically his stance was never set it at or near 50% as if the results are close your referendum is guaranteed to cause more trouble than it solves and people will never agree on the outcome. Pop it up around 70% and you actually deliver the things the populace want. I'd vote for anyone campaigning to re-join the EU, party politics wouldn't come into it at all. In fact it would be nice to be able to vote for someone I agreed with instead of playing the Tory opposing maths game or drawing a knob on the ballot.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:25
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Bit weird to do a self-portrait on the ballot (Also you've rung the Jedit bell, rant incoming)
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Apr 25, 2022 11:28
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forkboy84 posted:Bit weird to do a self-portrait on the ballot Drawing a steaming Corbyn takes longer.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:30
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Borrovan posted:Reminder that Ireland rejected the Lisbon Treaty (largely to to ignorant fears that the Eurocrats would impose gay marriage & abortion), so they had to go back & do the referendum again since it didn't get the right result the first time I know little of Irish politics, but my memory of the time is that the original Lisbon referendum in Ireland 'failed' over concerns about Ireland's tax structure (which had delivered the Celtic Tiger boom) and their neutrality stance as well as abortion/gay marriage. Guarantees in those areas led the second referendum passing the constitutional amendment - by a majority of a majority, iirc. It's amazing what can happen when a nation that isn't entirely high off its own exceptionalism engages with both its own population and the international body it is a full and equal member of. Didn't it emerge a while back that the EU actually offered some sort of meaningful change in response to Cameron's 'ultimatum' but he turned it down because he was sure that the referendum would swing Remain anyway? Or did make that up? I remember seeing TV news in Germany where they a) regularly covered the goings-on in Brussels and Strasbourg b) treated it like any other political talking shop. Contrast to the UK where the media only ever featured the European Parliament when Farage was being rude to other MEPs or when Barmy Brussels Bans Bendy Bananas.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:31
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The Perfect Element posted:let's be comrades rather than attacking each other for what seems to be literally no reason. Are you sure that you're a leftist?
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Apr 25, 2022 11:35
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BalloonFish posted:I know little of Irish politics, but my memory of the time is that the original Lisbon referendum in Ireland 'failed' over concerns about Ireland's tax structure (which had delivered the Celtic Tiger boom) and their neutrality stance as well as abortion/gay marriage. Guarantees in those areas led the second referendum passing the constitutional amendment - by a majority of a majority, iirc. So yes I also agree with your point about the whole thing being treated as distant and alien and either aggressive and anti-British or not actually doing much at all, with never bodes well. Mostly for those reasons I wouldn't bother voting for a single issue party on Rejoining unless they had an actual plan to address the root issues and material conditions that caused Brexit, otherwise they may as well just run on "and then the same poo poo will happen again in a decade or two. Vote can kickers 2024."
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Apr 25, 2022 11:38
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Guavanaut posted:There was also no small amount of left wing agitation against Lisbon, but yeah I think you have to go back to Maastricht and Copenhagen in '92 to really make people feel like they had some sort of a say in the EU project. Otherwise you just get 30 years of every oval office blaming everything that goes wrong on "oh well that was an EU directive so we couldn't do anything else" and then mysteriously people blame the EU for their circumstances.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:55
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I'm not sure that you can create a demos by treaty, especially one negotiated only at the higher levels, otherwise Scottish nationalism would have evaporated in 1707. Westminster can barely be bothered to craft a British demos, let alone a Euro one, other than by occasional appeal to "not those people". To get that level of buy in you have to at least on occasion ask people about things like Maastricht and listen to them, even if they give the 'wrong' answer. Anything else leads to rejection of the idea.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:03
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Single issue remainer in 2022 lmao.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:07
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No argument here, & it probably says something about the EU that they correctly identified that despite being far more open & democratic on paper than most national governments people just didn't want to engage with it, & the only answer they could come up with is "more of the same but also flegs"
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Apr 25, 2022 12:08
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BalloonFish posted:I know little of Irish politics, but my memory of the time is that the original Lisbon referendum in Ireland 'failed' over concerns about Ireland's tax structure (which had delivered the Celtic Tiger boom) and their neutrality stance as well as abortion/gay marriage. Guarantees in those areas led the second referendum passing the constitutional amendment - by a majority of a majority, iirc. This is it, but unfortunately a lot of people still parrot the Nigel Farage take on Lisbon 2, which is unfortunate
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Apr 25, 2022 12:10
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Guavanaut posted:No I think you're right, he did go to negotiations, didn't take them seriously, and the whole thing was treated as a non-issue, either "EU won't budge/Cameron too weak" by the Brexit press or "boring inconsequential nattering overseas" otherwise. Tories really wanting to avoid tax evasion regulation and decades of blaming the EU and immigrants for everything was the root cause of Brexit.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:13
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Good thing we've got tory rory to fix all that then.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:15
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The EU is of course known for taking a hard line on tax evasion & definitely not pretty much following the UK's lead on it
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Apr 25, 2022 12:16
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OwlFancier posted:Good thing we've got tory rory to fix all that then. Somebody has to pick up where Corbyn fumbled everything. They'd be hard pushed to do worse.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:19
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Is 100% of your political engagement based around EU flagfucking and whingeing about corbyn?
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Apr 25, 2022 12:20
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Borrovan posted:The EU is of course known for taking a hard line on tax evasion & definitely not pretty much following the UK's lead on it I was gonna say, you’re talking about an organisation that counts several of the worlds largest and most egregious tax havens among its most prominent members.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:21
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Tories really wanting to avoid tax evasion regulation and decades of blaming the EU and immigrants for everything was the root cause of Brexit. Morningwoodpecker posted:Somebody has to pick up where Corbyn fumbled everything. TACD posted:I somehow don’t believe you’re posting in good faith here
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Apr 25, 2022 12:23
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Failed Imagineer posted:This is it, but unfortunately a lot of people still parrot the Nigel Farage take on Lisbon 2, which is unfortunate Letting things go sour for decades and having a majority vote for "gently caress this" doesn't, and so everything is forced until it breaks. Morningwoodpecker posted:Tories really wanting to avoid tax evasion regulation and decades of blaming the EU and immigrants for everything was the root cause of Brexit.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:24
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Somebody has to pick up where Corbyn fumbled everything. They'd be hard pushed to do worse. Jeremy Corbyn sucks but not for the reasons you seem to think. As for people who did worse? Well seeing he lead Labour to it's highest increase in the vote between elections since 1945, I'd say Miliband did worse. Kieth's done worse. Seeing as the 40% vote share was better than any Labour result since 1970 except '97 & '01 guess Kinnock, Foot, Brown, & Callaghan all did worse
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Apr 25, 2022 12:29
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Jedit posted:Are you sure that you're a leftist? I wish people would just reallign more honestly, even if it means that we realise a huge % England is right wing. They know on some level that the right wing are their group, as the group that also want capitalism with maybe some changes, and they massively prefer that to leftism, as we see when they sabotage any actual left wing movement. But they are aware that the right wing are cunts, and they don't see themselves as cunts, so they couldn't possibly go sit in that corner. Instead they come sit with us. Maybe there's something to the whole "identity politics" thing (ugh I hate that phrase but I promise I'm not using in the Spiked Online way) having split us into weird groups that don't properly correlate to left and right. At least for the actual Labour MPs it makes sense in a self-serving careerist way. Brendan Rodgers fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 12:31
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Guavanaut posted:At least with a "do you accept the Treaty of Rome/Maastricht/Lisbon" "no" "okay, would you accept it with guarantees on X, Y, Z?" "yes" creates a dialog. Agreed. UK never had a remotely normal relationship with the EU, and both sides were to blame there, and in retrospect it seems extremely naive that Brexit was considered such a remote possibility by most
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Apr 25, 2022 12:35
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OwlFancier posted:Is 100% of your political engagement based around EU flagfucking and whingeing about corbyn? I'll engage in good faith with anyone willing and interesting or funny, even if I disagree with them completely. I'll not bother if all you want to do is fling poo. Guavanaut posted:I doubt Grimsby, Sunderland, Mansfield, and Bolsover have huge offshore tax holdings, which leaves asking why they pinned decades of decline on the EU. Decades of xenophobic headlines and politicians blaming all failing public services on immigration and the EU rather than their own lack of investment. The unfortunate streak of racism/exceptionalism that runs through the rotting corpse of our fallen empire didn't help either. The Brexit referendum wasn't supposed to be about immigration, but that's the only issue that was voted on as the two had been linked in the minds of the majority by decades of people doing exactly that dishonestly and never once getting factchecked on it.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:40
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UKMT still being the easiest thread in D&D to troll I see. Or maybe no and the joke is on me.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:46
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I think it's more fascination with finding a live FBPE specimen in this thread of all places
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Apr 25, 2022 12:47
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I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE TO BE THIS STUPID BUT HERE YOU ARE
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Apr 25, 2022 12:49
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Somebody has to pick up where Corbyn fumbled everything. They'd be hard pushed to do worse. At risk of repeating myself, what did he fumble? He almost won on a platform of "Brexit by Labour" then was destroyed on a platform of "2nd Ref please you idiots" that conference voted for.
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Apr 25, 2022 12:49
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/25/ukrainian-refugee-left-homeless-after-uk-host-demanded-bill-money Person offers place to stay to a Ukrainian, them blames them for the sudden increase in utility costs.
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Apr 25, 2022 13:01
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Since the thread needs a dose of chill out, I guess it's time I got off my arse and posted the  UKMT Solidarity Fund Monthly Update - April 2022 It's funny you see because we hit a funny number at the end of March. (I have no comment on the existence or lack thereof of any tailored donations from trustees to achieve this.) https://i.imgur.com/QwA6pSq.gifv Charitable status application is still trundling along - unfortunately it turns out they need physical signatures from all the trustees on the new documents, and we are scattered all over the country, so progress is currently restricted to the speed of Royal Mail + busy (and/or procrastinating) goons. March Stats:  Monthly donations and payouts:  Cumulative donations and payouts:  UKMTSF Data Trends | Record of Activity | Constitution If you are someone that is in need, no how minor or unimportant you think your need may be, please get in contact. This fund is here to help you with whatever comes your way. If something is causing you stress, pain, worry or physical distress, please get in contact with us. Please do not go hungry or without something because you are of the belief that your pain is not important enough. If there is something in your life that would make things easier, get in touch. Feel free to contact any of the committee if you would like to discuss an issue. All matters are treated in complete confidence. Donate: Bank Transfer - PM IrvingWashington (aka Bill Drummond on Discord) for account details Apply: Application Form Email Us PM: AceClown, Fargle (discord only), Maugrim, The DPRK or Tsietisin.
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Apr 25, 2022 13:03
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Funny thing is he's correctly identified the reasons why the "official" Remain campaign lost. It's not like the establishment could stand up & say "we were actually lying to you the whole time, it's not the EU's fault things have been getting worse, it was us, we did it", so they just said "actually everything is fine, we won't change anything, gently caress u". Wonder if there were any politicians campaigning honestly, acknowledging the flaws of the EU, but arguing that the problems affecting modern Britain are domestic ones caused by UK Government policy & we're better off staying in & addressing those problems Probably that guy's fault, if so
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Apr 25, 2022 13:07
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Pablo Bluth posted:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/25/ukrainian-refugee-left-homeless-after-uk-host-demanded-bill-money I'm surprised they're trying to bung citizens £350 a month to house a whole human instead of contracting some new shell company that rents the Calf of Man to house them.
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Apr 25, 2022 13:09
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Pablo Bluth posted:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/25/ukrainian-refugee-left-homeless-after-uk-host-demanded-bill-money This isn't even the worst thing about the government's Homes For Ukraine project. That would be how they're deliberately issuing visas for entire families except for one child, so the family can't actually use them. That's how they've issued something like 40k visas but only 7k or so Ukrainians have come here. It's loving obscene.
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Apr 25, 2022 13:24
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fuctifino posted:I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE TO BE THIS STUPID I can heartily recommend telling video game nerds that $1000+ is a bit steep for an unfinished product that usually retails at $70 complete if you want a comedy avatar.
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Apr 25, 2022 13:25
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I've never been more proud of anything than I am right now :')
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Apr 25, 2022 13:28
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4dHkkZwRI4
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Apr 25, 2022 13:41
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Pablo Bluth posted:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/25/ukrainian-refugee-left-homeless-after-uk-host-demanded-bill-money The article even states that there's no provision to move them to another host if they get kicked out. Not really that surprising given that the tories official position on social safety nets is 'Well, you shouldn't have" and then putting on some sunglasses.
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Apr 25, 2022 14:09
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Jedit posted:This isn't even the worst thing about the government's Homes For Ukraine project. That would be how they're deliberately issuing visas for entire families except for one child, so the family can't actually use them. That's how they've issued something like 40k visas but only 7k or so Ukrainians have come here. It's loving obscene. JFC if this is policy (I have no reason to doubt so). Britain is at the cutting-edge of innovation in the racism space
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Apr 25, 2022 14:17
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Failed Imagineer posted:JFC if this is policy (I have no reason to doubt so). Britain is at the cutting-edge of innovation in the racism space It's true. Jose posted about it in the CSPAM thread, I'll see if I can get the link EDIT https://twitter.com/SageSussex/status/1516421093371883525?t=ZDxWKeq_oF1wkmSNENODJw&s=19 https://twitter.com/kirstininnes/status/1516487071409582086?t=D9iNH-Qi3SQThrwMS_pH6Q&s=19
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Apr 25, 2022 14:21
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