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Less Fat Luke posted:I haven't played DW2 yet (waiting for more patches) but ground wars were pretty straightforward and fine in DW1 There have been several games with perfectly fine planetary invasion mechanics but that doesn't stop spacegame nerds from angrily demanding something else, and the "let me just park ships in orbit to capture like a control point" one is a very popular ask. Which is why I assume there will be mass whining about it in GalCiv 4, assuming more than three people actually give Wardell money for it after how 3 turned out.
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Apr 25, 2022 23:13
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Hughlander posted:Ground combat seems even less than gal civ 2/3. If you're fighting a colony world you just have a fleet in orbit over the planet for 3ish turns then you ttake it. If you're fighting a Core world, you... Have a fleet with troop pods in orbit for 3-9 turns then you take it. I didn't see any loss conditions for it. That seems entirely reasonable actually. Unless the game is a remake of Emperor Of The Fading Suns or something, then ground combat is less important than space combat. Unless the game is a Dune 4X or similar in which case there should be more focus on Dune than on the rest of the entire universe.
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Apr 26, 2022 00:30
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SIGSEGV posted:That seems entirely reasonable actually. Unless the game is a remake of Emperor Of The Fading Suns or something, then ground combat is less important than space combat. Unless the game is a Dune 4X or similar in which case there should be more focus on Dune than on the rest of the entire universe. A Dune game should be something like Crusader Kings. A bunch of feuding nobles stabbing each other in the back while the Empire crumbles and some incompetent snot-nosed brat inherits control of the one world with 10 time the wealth generation of the next closest would be incredibly on point.
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Apr 26, 2022 04:09
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LLSix posted:A Dune game should be something like Crusader Kings. A bunch of feuding nobles stabbing each other in the back while the Empire crumbles and some incompetent snot-nosed brat inherits control of the one world with 10 time the wealth generation of the next closest would be incredibly on point. It would also be interesting with a 4X, where armies are incredibly rare and puts the Emperor's attention on you.
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Apr 26, 2022 11:10
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Azhais posted:Every invasion should spawn a full total war campaign and you can't return to your save until you complete it Sounds like a hypothetical Space Rangers 3
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Apr 26, 2022 14:05
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SIGSEGV posted:That seems entirely reasonable actually. Unless the game is a remake of Emperor Of The Fading Suns or something, then ground combat is less important than space combat. Unless the game is a Dune 4X or similar in which case there should be more focus on Dune than on the rest of the entire universe. OTOH if you're gonna be goofing around on the scale of multiple entire planets it might be cool to actually do something with that for once instead of focusing exclusively on the tracts of absolutely fuckin nothing in between. The genre hasn't really come up with much new to do with it since 1997. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 26, 2022 14:20
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Anyone in on Dune Spice Wars? Please post impressions if so😀
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Apr 26, 2022 16:36
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Mayveena posted:Anyone in on Dune Spice Wars? Please post impressions if so😀 DasTactic just uploaded a video playing it, looks interesting
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Apr 26, 2022 16:51
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Kvlt! posted:DasTactic just uploaded a video playing it, looks interesting Well I bought it an played it for a few minutes. There is a LOT going on in this game and it's going to take some dedicated play for me to get my head around it. At the same time it certainly brings back those literally 2AM play sessions of Dune II. I loved that game so much and am so glad it's finally gotten a fresh coat of paint.
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Apr 26, 2022 17:12
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Mayveena posted:Well I bought it an played it for a few minutes. There is a LOT going on in this game and it's going to take some dedicated play for me to get my head around it. At the same time it certainly brings back those literally 2AM play sessions of Dune II. I loved that game so much and am so glad it's finally gotten a fresh coat of paint. I'm curious is it more based on the books or kinda a tie-in to the the new movie? Would like to hear your impressions as you play it.
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Apr 26, 2022 17:14
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Kvlt! posted:I'm curious is it more based on the books or kinda a tie-in to the the new movie? Would like to hear your impressions as you play it. Unfortunately I have not read the books or seen the movie (it's crazy and a long story but I can't read the books nor watch the movie). However the reviews I've read say it's based on the books more than the movie.
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Apr 26, 2022 17:18
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If it's bringing back dune II vibes it probably involves the words arrakis, spice, dune, atreides, and emperor and otherwise could be any ip I was sort of hoping it was going to be similar to the old Dune game
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Apr 26, 2022 17:22
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Azhais posted:If it's bringing back dune II vibes it probably involves the words arrakis, spice, dune, atreides, and emperor and otherwise could be any ip Which old Dune game? Do you mean the board game, the video game Dune I, or another video game I'm not familiar with?
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Apr 26, 2022 17:31
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Dune I
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Apr 26, 2022 17:38
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Mayveena posted:Anyone in on Dune Spice Wars? Please post impressions if so😀 I played 25 minutes during my lunch break, looks good but one of my units got caught in a loop lol. Also I made dumb mistakes.
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Apr 26, 2022 18:18
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IGN gave Gal Civ 4 a 5/10. Other outlets have been a bit kinder but it does seem like the game design missed the mark.
Thom12255 fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 26, 2022 20:22
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Ouch.
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Apr 26, 2022 20:26
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Lawman 0 posted:Ouch. Popped onto Stardock's official GalCiv Discord and Brad does not approve of IGN man. He doesn't like Gal Civ 3 got higher scores than 4 is getting (he didn't have much involvement on 3 and all the GalCiv 4 dev guides he's written has been him saying how much better 4 is going to be compared to 3 because he's in charge of it). 
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Apr 26, 2022 20:31
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I liked GalCiv 1 more than the rest of the games honestly. I dislike ship designers -- feels gimmicky and leads to weird minmaxed designs. Prefer having "predesigned ships" that the whole combat system can be balanced around. I likd some of the ideas in galciv 4 like the core worlds system, so I may pick it up still. I have found that sometimes "5/10" games are still very entertaining, e.g. Highfleet got atrocious reviews. Still, that IGN review was well written and stings hard.
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Apr 26, 2022 20:37
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I 100% have come around to conclusion that unit designers are hot garbage.
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Apr 26, 2022 21:06
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Like everything, unit designers are great where suitable and awful where not. They are less frequently suitable than people believe. e: granularity is also a factor, a unit designers that's legobricking two or three discrete, prebuilt sections together may be a good fit somewhere where being able to swap out different guns would be too much. Splicer fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 26, 2022 21:16
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Even in games where they’re “good” (insofar as not being an active detriment), they’re still aware of dev time that could have gone to something more productive.
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Apr 26, 2022 21:24
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Lawman 0 posted:I 100% have come around to conclusion that unit designers are hot garbage. When they work, they work well. Star Ruler, MoO2, SMAC, though that game would have been good without it.
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Apr 26, 2022 21:25
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Why did the MOO2 ship designer work so well? I remember it was so straightforward, and you could tailor it to any kind of enemy, and it really made a difference. Why? I never could find a space 4x that did it as well as MOO2. I think it might have been because it was turn based. It's the only thing I can think of. With turn based, you had the time to figure out how each change you made to a design actually affected the battle. In, say, Stellaris you don't have the time or detail to see anything, and the post battle result only gives you a glimpse of what worked/what didn't.
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Apr 26, 2022 22:04
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I like unit designers more when there's enough meat to the system that it's fun to get creative and experiment with weird stuff like with MoO2. In most of them though there's not really much there other than some fiddly busywork. With the GalCiv series I'll give it some points for at least having a neat visual customization to its designer. I probably spent more time playing space ship lego with that than with the game itself.
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Apr 26, 2022 22:06
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Aesthetic unit designers rule, and unit designers that let you completely change unit functionality are cool. Stats and incremental upgrades aren’t so much. Rock Paper Scissors is especially lame. How did we go so far backwards from MoO 2 letting you have MIRVing missiles and extra small extra fast anti missile missiles as customisation options on the same tech level of missile?
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Apr 26, 2022 22:06
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Aesthetic unit designers rule, and unit designers that let you completely change unit functionality are cool. Stats and incremental upgrades aren’t so much. Rock Paper Scissors is especially lame. How did we go so far backwards from MoO 2 letting you have MIRVing missiles and extra small extra fast anti missile missiles as customisation options on the same tech level of missile? False! Anti missiles are a construction technology of their own. While Mirv missiles require any chemistry technology of two levels higher than the original technology. They aren't even in the same tree. You get MIRV nukes at the same level as merculite missiles, whether you take those or pollution processor. One of the most hotly contested tech choices for non tolerant/creative races. Do you give up a great building for a missile that delivers a larger lump sum of damage? Or do you split up your damage with MIRV nukes and risk being shut down by enemy shields and their fixed damage reduction? MOO1 is probably the better overall game. But MOO2 is the one that will never leave my heart. Also here are some MOO2 mods that I still need to try out: https://moo2mod.com/#patches
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Apr 26, 2022 22:27
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habituallyred posted:False! Anti missiles are a construction technology of their own. While Mirv missiles require any chemistry technology of two levels higher than the original technology. They aren't even in the same tree. IIRC you can make missiles to intercept other missiles separately from the specialised anti-missile missile armament. Is that not right? I remember having to do all sorts of weird poo poo on an Uncreative run or whatever the race creation choice was that removes choices from the tech tree.
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Apr 26, 2022 22:39
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orangelex44 posted:Even in games where they’re “good” (insofar as not being an active detriment), they’re still aware of dev time that could have gone to something more productive. 
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Apr 26, 2022 22:40
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:IIRC you can make missiles to intercept other missiles separately from the specialised anti-missile missile armament. Is that not right? I remember having to do all sorts of weird poo poo on an Uncreative run or whatever the race creation choice was that removes choices from the tech tree. Sorry, no! You can self destruct frigates as an improvised missile defence, if you are stupid productive. Or you could be stupid hard to hit with a +defence, transdimensional, warlord race that sticks to frigates. ECM jammers are in the same timeframe we are talking about, and are probably the best choice at that level. A little bit later and an uncreative race could be saddled with pulsars... Stars without number has anti-missile missiles for each level of missile technology... but doesn't have the same tech tree format. It also has a really neat point defence network thing, and interceptors that will keep on hunting missiles instead of getting distracted by capitol ships. Maybe you are thinking of Aurora? You can make basically any sort of missile your fevered imagination comes up with. And try to intercept with "standard" missiles. But it is not even remotely a MOO2 clone.
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Apr 26, 2022 23:38
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Haha suck it Brad you giant prick. The IGN review is at pains to point out what the problems are. The AI not knowing how to play the game is a pretty big failing. Writing off the reviewer as someone who doesn't 'get' 4X games is a pissweak response.
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Apr 26, 2022 23:47
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Gal Civ 1 having fun AI to play against was one of the game's biggest strengths at the time compared to its competition, so GalCiv 4 having just bad ai is very unfortunate
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Apr 26, 2022 23:50
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Splicer posted:You gonna tell me Age of Wonders: Planetfall should have spent their dev time on something "more productive"? Jumping in to say, I'm not sure who would count AoWP as a game with unit design. Customization via mods, sure - and it's really well done. But I can't decide to swap the Vanguard Troopers kinetic rifles for laser rifles, at least not in game. So it's not really a unit designer IMO. On the other hand, I think the above is informative to game designers of exactly why you would or wouldn't want to add unit design to your game. Just by adding 3 mods to predesigned units, the developers have created an insanely complex and cool set of interactions for players to have fun with. From a design perspective, it requires restraint in that you only let the player design the units within certain parameters, but also requires commitment to the excess consequences in the sense of A) designing a large number of qualitatively different modifiers for the player to unlock and play around with B) being able to guarantee that the complex interactions of the above won't cause any blatant bugs, unbalanced situations, hangs due to deadlocks... I think the MOO1/MOO2 designer had something similar going on. It felt wide open, but when you got down to it, you had a narrow range of ship sizes you could use and only a few different good component options to consider. HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:IIRC you can make missiles to intercept other missiles separately from the specialised anti-missile missile armament. Is that not right? I remember having to do all sorts of weird poo poo on an Uncreative run or whatever the race creation choice was that removes choices from the tech tree. It's been a long time since I've played MOO2, but IIRC, missiles can never target other missiles. The vast majority of weapon systems in MOO2 can at least *try* to hit a missile (if they're not HV modded). My favorite creative MOO2 point defense system is the disposable frigate self-destruct.
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Apr 26, 2022 23:57
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Psycho Landlord posted:There have been several games with perfectly fine planetary invasion mechanics but that doesn't stop spacegame nerds from angrily demanding something else, and the "let me just park ships in orbit to capture like a control point" one is a very popular ask.
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Apr 26, 2022 23:59
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Splicer posted:You gonna tell me Age of Wonders: Planetfall should have spent their dev time on something "more productive"? I don't really see their mechanics as a unit designer per se, although I suppose I would entertain an argument about it. Even if I conceded that, Planetfall is a major outlier against the commonly cited "good" unit designers in that a) the base units are much more interesting in the first place, b) there's very little rock/paper/scissors balancing from unit to unit or modded ability to modded ability, and c) the presumed unit designer is much more integrated into the core game as a turn-to-turn mechanic, where the ability to alter units is a real power multiplier that should be leveraged but at the same time is metered with in-game restrictions. You cannot wholly ignore the mechanic, but you can consciously decide not to utilize it and succeed if you plan correctly.
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Apr 27, 2022 00:22
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canepazzo posted:Why did the MOO2 ship designer work so well? I remember it was so straightforward, and you could tailor it to any kind of enemy, and it really made a difference. Why? I never could find a space 4x that did it as well as MOO2. MOO let you get a little more creative with design than most space strategy games, like by the lategame you can choose to mount some kind of ultra doom weapon on your battleships or alternately like 300 of the lovely laser you start with (or better yet like 100 lovely missiles) and the latter can be very situationally effective, everything has a role and can synergize with other parts, nothing super crazy but it makes for a lot of tactical specialization that you just flat-out can't replicate with a list of prefab ship types without some kind of bonkers illegible construction spreadsheet like AI War. Contrast to something like Stellaris which for some reason has a ship designer, but every size of ship just gives you like 2-3 different flavors of segment that barely mechanically matter, there's like three different kinds of weapon that kinda-sorta do a rock-paper-scissors thing, and every other component has one obviously correct choice and a bunch of lovely waste of time options that are way worse but like 2% cheaper or something. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 00:46
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Splicer posted:As a very vocal "let me just park ships in orbit" complainer about Stellaris, the second half of that sentence is actually "...to trigger whatever the planet capturing mechanics are". According to the review below there's no mechanics. The planet can't shoot back, each invasion is identical, a single ship can capture as effectively as an entire fleet, it's nuts. it beginnnnnssssss but for real it sounds like galciv 4 sucks, which is not surprising when the other galcivs have also sucked Fortunately we have many good 4Xs such as the aforementioned Planetfall that I need to play more of since I have yet to try the lizard dudes or the space paladins
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Apr 27, 2022 00:51
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:IIRC you can make missiles to intercept other missiles separately from the specialised anti-missile missile armament. Is that not right? I remember having to do all sorts of weird poo poo on an Uncreative run or whatever the race creation choice was that removes choices from the tech tree. You could use your fighter bays to shoot down missiles, also point defense weapons. The lamest/best missile mod was the Emissions Guidance system which would almost always obliterate the ship it hit. Scary stuff.
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Apr 27, 2022 01:19
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Splicer posted:As a very vocal "let me just park ships in orbit" complainer about Stellaris, the second half of that sentence is actually "...to trigger whatever the planet capturing mechanics are". According to the review below there's no mechanics. The planet can't shoot back, each invasion is identical, a single ship can capture as effectively as an entire fleet, it's nuts. Extremely lame and bad design.
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Apr 27, 2022 01:25
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Lowen posted:Jumping in to say, I'm not sure who would count AoWP as a game with unit design. Customization via mods, sure - and it's really well done. orangelex44 posted:I don't really see their mechanics as a unit designer per se, although I suppose I would entertain an argument about it. Even if I conceded that, Planetfall is a major outlier against the commonly cited "good" unit designers in that a) the base units are much more interesting in the first place, b) there's very little rock/paper/scissors balancing from unit to unit or modded ability to modded ability, and c) the presumed unit designer is much more integrated into the core game as a turn-to-turn mechanic, where the ability to alter units is a real power multiplier that should be leveraged but at the same time is metered with in-game restrictions. You cannot wholly ignore the mechanic, but you can consciously decide not to utilize it and succeed if you plan correctly. Similarly SotS1 wouldn't have been half the game it was if you couldn't customise your ships, and it definitely benefits from having more freedom than Planetfall, but even there it wouldn't be as good without the places where you don't have freedom: You'll never be able to build a Tarka ship that's as tanky as a Hiver dreadnaught, the Human FTL engine is basically a giant target, and you'll know you're fighting Morrigi by all the goddamned drones. Also all the knock on effects from not being able to upgrade ships, the variable tech trees, all that jazz. And in both of these cases a big part of what makes the design worth it is you'll be closely watching and manipulating many of the fights they're in so you'll really get to experience the cool stuff you did in the designer and how it all came together. Or crashed and burned, whichever. Contrast something like Stellaris that only has a unit designer because 4Xs have unit designers, and it absolutely shows. There's hundreds of possible design combinations and maybe a dozen of them are worth building, what those dozen are is not intuitive at all, and most of your fights are hands-off lightshows probably occurring offscreen while you're busy doing something else. I'll absolutely agree that the "common wisdom" of what makes a good unit designer is probably very wrong, but they do exist and where they exist they are very fun*. Even if in SotS's case it was probably entirely by accident. e: *keeping in mind that part of what makes a good unit designer is "will this game benefit from a unit designer". Splicer fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 01:36
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