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D34THROW posted:I can't stand people that pick and choose from the Bible I mean, there's a *lot* of stuff in there. Almost everyone picks and chooses from the Bible. e: I mean unless you're a hardcore literalist. But yeah I definitely wear fabrics made of different materials, and sometimes consume blood in my food, and even when you get into the New Testament I have yet to give everything I have to the poor so like - yeah. HopperUK fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 12:28
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Nessus posted:LITERALLY his siblings? How do they swing this one? Our bodies are the product of our parents, whom we selected for ourselves in the pre-existence. Our souls are the children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother; Jesus was their first child. (He became part of the Godhead when Heavenly Father accepted his plan for salvation for this world. I think.) Some of the children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother chose to follow Lucifer (also a sibling of Jesus), and there was a war in heaven, and the disobedient spirits were expelled. We, you and I, were rewarded for fighting alongside Jesus by being allowed to choose parents for ourselves, and some of us might become heavenly parents for our own planets someday.
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Apr 25, 2022 14:43
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I've heard the 'your soul picks your parents before you're born' thing from multiple different sources and man. Soul me was an idiot. Bad choice!
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Apr 25, 2022 14:49
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Killingyouguy! posted:I've heard the 'your soul picks your parents before you're born' thing from multiple different sources and man. Soul me was an idiot. Bad choice! No, no, soul you knew that you needed to let your weaker siblings choose before you picked from what was left. Or you wanted some extra hardship because you thought you were hardcore. Or you had had a hard time with forgiveness, and you decided to give yourself some more opportunities to practice. For sure not a mistake! (Definitely never going to get used to make abused kids feel worse. Totally.)
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Apr 25, 2022 15:04
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HopperUK posted:I mean, there's a *lot* of stuff in there. Almost everyone picks and chooses from the Bible. Yeah, but there's also the whole Adamic law vs Abrahamic law vs Law of Christ thing, the new covenant, etc. I tend to think that God's "firstborn" so to speak, the Jewish people, are sort of held to a different standard in His eyes, even if they reject His Son as Messiah. The radio show I listen to on Sundays puts it this way: If you notice what seems to be a contradiction in the Bible, either it was translated poorly and/or you're reading it wrong. It's like the commandment "thou shalt not kill" and yet you have Joshua and the armies of Israel slaughtering man, woman, child, and chattel through the whole fuckin' Promised Land - it's a contradiction. When you look back to the Hebrew, the more direct translation is "thou shalt not commit murder". I, personally, am extremely interested in reading better translations and/or learning Hebrew. Didn't someone in here suggest the Douay-Rheims for that?
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Apr 25, 2022 15:06
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zonohedron posted:Or you wanted some extra hardship because you thought you were hardcore. To be fair I do think this
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Apr 25, 2022 15:07
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I believe differently about the Bible but that's okay:) Translation choice is always tricky- it feels like learning enough Koine Greek to read the gospels should be attainable.
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Apr 25, 2022 17:29
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ah but then you run into the issue that koine greek is itself a translation and you will never be able to read the original original aramaic. beats buddhism where you can potentially have 4 different scriptural languages (old chinese, sanskrit, pali, whatever tradition you're in's vernacular) with the original one (pali) being an invented language because sanskrit was evolving too fast at the time of the buddha for them to pin down the exact grammar and vocabulary of his dialect when they finally got around to writing it down. BIG FLUFFY DOG fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 17:47
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HopperUK posted:I mean, there's a *lot* of stuff in there. Almost everyone picks and chooses from the Bible. Of those three examples, I would say we're not picking and choosing. Different fabrics thing is for the Old Covenant. Blood as a food is covered in the New Testament where, while the apostles still forbid us gentiles from consuming blood, it is made clear that reasons for avoiding certain foods have nothing to do with the foodstuff itself. And giving everything to the poor is a task that Jesus knows is impossible for most, which in turn is the point of why he commands it. The above is not my own thinking but based on a LOT of research. When there's a whole lot of solid theology behind "picking and choosing", then it most certainly isn't that. Edit: Even solid theology can obviously be wrong, but it would still not be picking and choosing. And I am not saying we (and I in particular) don't try to downplay and ignore those things in the Bible that make us uncomfortable, we certainly do. Valiantman fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 18:42
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Valiantman posted:And giving everything to the poor is a task that Jesus knows is impossible for most, which in turn is the point of why he commands it. would you be able to elaborate on this a little bit?
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Apr 25, 2022 18:49
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mycophobia posted:would you be able to elaborate on this a little bit? His point was that if you intend to become righteous through your own actions, this is the sort of thing you need to do. No one can actually do that or hold to that standard, which is why we need grace.
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Apr 25, 2022 19:39
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St Francis did. Looks like we’ve accidentally reached pelagainism again
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Apr 25, 2022 19:55
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Pelagius? Septim? Sheogorath's favorite!
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Apr 25, 2022 19:58
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:St Francis did. Looks like we’ve accidentally reached pelagainism again I presume He would have tasked Francis with something else, had he been trying to be righteous on his own. 
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Apr 25, 2022 20:23
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:St Francis did. Looks like we’ve accidentally reached pelagainism again I rather doubt Francis himself would say he did not need grace to attain righteousness.
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Apr 25, 2022 20:27
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D34THROW posted:Pelagius? Septim? Sheogorath's favorite! Have you ever heard the tale of
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Apr 25, 2022 20:35
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That verse is pretty much the basis for Christian monasticism--its what sent St. Anthony of Egypt to the desert. So it's not so much that it's impossible. On the other hand, if you would be perfect...
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Apr 25, 2022 21:10
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Yeah, I mean, it is a genuine commandment and not a rhetorical device. It makes sense that people take it seriously and some even succeed. In that part at least. For those not familiar with the story, there was this rich, young person, who claimed he had followed all the commandments. The first and most important one is to have God in number one place in your life. But when the (Son of) God personally asks you to sell everything, give the money to the poor and then follow him, and you cannot, it kinda makes it obvious how wrong you were in the first place.
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Apr 25, 2022 21:48
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Valiantman posted:Yeah, I mean, it is a genuine commandment and not a rhetorical device. It makes sense that people take it seriously and some even succeed. In that part at least. The whole story is more complicated, though. Individual encounters with Jesus follow a fairly standard format. Jesus first asks, "Who do you think I am?" or "Why do you think I can help you?" followed by "Why do you deserve to be helped?" The best answer to the first one is Peter's - "You are the Christ, the son of God." Jesus generally accepted anything along the lines of "I don't know, I just believe that you are able to do this." The wrong answer to the second question is: "I'm a good person and I deserve it." The right answer is, "I don't deserve anything. I only know that I need help and believe you can provide it." The rich young man whiffs on both questions. He initially calls Jesus "Good Teacher." Jesus responds with "Why do you call me good? Only God is good," which was his opening to make a statement about why Jesus was special. Instead, he backed off and dropped the "Good" adjective, simply referring to Jesus as Teacher afterward. On the second question, he proudly proclaims that he keeps all the commandments and wants to know what he has to do to "inherit" eternal life - with "inherit" implying an iron-clad contract that God is required to honor. Rather than blowing him off, Jesus has compassion on him. He says that to attain eternal life, he must give up the thing he holds most dear - his money. Then he must leave behind his privileged life and follow him. In other words, he must give up the idea that he merits anything, and put his whole life into the trust of Jesus. That is more than the young man can deal with and he goes away disappointed. The obvious contrast to this story is that of the Syrophoenician woman, who isn't even a Jew yet still gets help from Jesus, because she understands who Jesus is and admits she has no claim on his help.
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Apr 25, 2022 22:28
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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:try to learn from social gaffes and stumbles for any hypothetical "next time", but somehow I consistently draw a blank on this one. Should I have just said "Well that's hideously reductive" or... what? Is there anything I might have said that was persuasive and insightful? Maybe not to her, specifically, since I know her well enough to know dropping it was my most prudent recourse; but what might one of you have said in response to that kind of take? I agree with others who've said that there's no imperative to engage with someone whose sincerity and sensitivity is doubtful, but it is worthy to think about If you should encounter a similar situation where you feel there's enough good faith and goodwill to keep talking about it. My own initial thoughts are that of course it's rare that words like "every" and "all" can be part of an accurate description, whether the topic is about religion or something else. And I feel like that's something that learned people have been trying to make widespread for a while now. But let's accept that "every" and "all" are frequently used colloquially to mean "a lot" or "the overwhelming majority." Personally, I don't have a problem with the notion that a person's religious identity is partly made up by chance and accident and partly made up by their intentions. I grew up in a Catholic house that did not lean towards mysticism, and Christian mysticism was something that I explored on my own as I got older. Had I grown up in a Muslim home that did not have an interest in mysticism, it's very possible that I would have explored Islamic mysticism instead. I started exploring Plum Village Buddhism because I was given a book by Thich Nhat Hanh by a friend, and it also helped that Thich Nhat Hanh was also close with several prominent Christians that I admired such as MLK Jr. and Thomas Merton. And if we're being very general with our terms, I think that among the extant world religions, there is a common interest in those big lofty values like right conduct, ultimate truth, harmony, etc, and I don't have a problem with that, either. What I would say to someone making an observation like, "Isn't that every religion" is to advise them not to lose a sense of appreciation for subtlety. Sure, someone can go through life saying "all flowers are pretty much the same, you see one, you've seen them all," and that's one way to live, I suppose, but this is missing out on a lot of beauty and nuance that takes more patience and deep looking to enjoy. And especially with people's religious views, being too glib and reductive runs the risk of causing misunderstanding and hurt feelings, and then they will run the risk of closing themselves off from meaningful experiences and closeness with others. So I'd advise a skillful approach, which can recognize that yes, many of the religions you see today do have shared values (especially if you generalize and simplify those values enough), but then to still appreciate the subtleties between religions and among their practitioners.
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Apr 26, 2022 01:35
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OK, I finally finished John. I'd stopped at Chapter 19 where things were getting a bit nasty in the way that Gospels tend to towards the end. So I've done Luke - Acts, the I went back and did John. Instead of proceeding to Romans and getting into the Epistles I decided to read Mark. Impressions. Well I think it's cute that Jesus casts out demons and they immediately start to say "I know who thou art Son of G..." and he goes "shhhhh". e: This is where the "sin against the holy spirit" is mentioned. It's pretty clear that what is being said is that accusing Jesus of being possesed by Beelzebub and using demon powers to cast out spirits is what Jesus is refering to. Hang on, is Beelzebub from Baal? I bet it is. Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 26, 2022 10:01
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Prurient Squid posted:
Yes, "baal" is "lord" or "master" - there's at least one place in the Old Testament where God says that Israel will no longer (have to) call him their master, but instead something else, but please don't ask me to find it - and Beelzebub is a mocking version of a non-Israelite/Judaean deity's name, turning it from Lord of Something (I don't remember) into Lord of the Flies.
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Apr 26, 2022 13:46
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I'm still slowly working my way through the old testament and man i was intimidated by the number of chapters in psalms but it's a welcome relief after all those history books
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Apr 26, 2022 14:27
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Psalms is some real good readin', honestly.
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Apr 26, 2022 14:35
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Killingyouguy! posted:I'm still slowly working my way through the old testament and man i was intimidated by the number of chapters in psalms but it's a welcome relief after all those history books It helps that Psalms is divided into, well, psalms, instead of being a single thing divided into chunks. Easier to take a break and come back to, because you don't have to remember what you'd read the day before.
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Apr 26, 2022 14:42
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If you like psalms, you guys should check out the Simpsons Memes thread right now lol. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3846107&pagenumber=915
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Apr 26, 2022 15:04
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D34THROW posted:I can't stand people that pick and choose from the Bible Considering that there are many Bibles and many rejected books once considered part of the canon, it’s picking and choosing all the way down, isn’t it?
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Apr 26, 2022 15:06
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I recently learned there's books that are unique to Ethiopia?
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Apr 26, 2022 15:34
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ulmont posted:Considering that there are many Bibles and many rejected books once considered part of the canon, it’s picking and choosing all the way down, isn’t it? I'm talking more the people that get a tattoo of "Leviticus 18:22" while conspicuously ignoring Lev 19:28, for instance.
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Apr 26, 2022 15:45
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Killingyouguy! posted:I recently learned there's books that are unique to Ethiopia? Yes. And in both the Ethiopian Christian and the Ethiopian Jewish traditions. In particular, Israeli Jews used to criticize some Ethiopian Jewish traditions as invented, and Ethiopian Jews as less Jewish for some reason*, but the Dead Sea Scrolls ended up lining up very well with the Ethiopian Jewish traditions and books… *Racism.
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Apr 26, 2022 15:50
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The book of Jubilees has a really beautiful account of the death of Abraham. I'm phoneposting right now but I'll try to remember to drop it here later if nobody beats me to it.
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Apr 26, 2022 16:13
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If anyone feels like praying, my friend's mom died today after a lengthy struggle with brain cancer. Please pray for the repose of her soul and the consolation of her family.
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Apr 27, 2022 01:41
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Requiescat in pace. I could use some prayers for a dying relative myself.
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Apr 27, 2022 01:46
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D34THROW posted:Jesus is the Word made flesh, and the Word existed with God in the beginning, so how tf these people gonna say Jesus didn't exist at all before conception? I can't stand people that pick and choose from the Bible Btw adoptionist thought is older than the Bible. These are early early debates. It’s one of the things excluded from the canon when the canon is being assembled. So you’re backwards btw.
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Apr 27, 2022 01:58
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Pershing posted:If anyone feels like praying, my friend's mom died today after a lengthy struggle with brain cancer. Please pray for the repose of her soul and the consolation of her family. Worthleast posted:Requiescat in pace. I am so sorry for you both, and I hope you'll accept my condolences. Make sure to look after yourselves as well.
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Apr 27, 2022 09:14
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I'm praying for Pershing's friend. I had a really bad one today. But I seem to sprung back pretty well.
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Apr 27, 2022 10:57
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Prurient Squid posted:I'm praying for Pershing's friend. Glad to hear that. Sorry about your news, Pershing. My best friend's Mum passed away last year. It was a privilege of sorts to be with her through it all but not easy.
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Apr 27, 2022 11:07
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Prurient Squid posted:I'm praying for Pershing's friend. I'm still wrangling my brain today, hope you do well.
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Apr 27, 2022 11:12
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I'm wondering if I'd benefit from Taoism, with it's philosophy of not deeming. e: Seeing it written in Chinese gives me Heart Sutra vibes. Not that I'm planning to read it in Chinese of course! e2: Trivial as it may seem, it gives me flashbacks to Metal Gear Solid 1. "Lao Tzu said, he who knows that enough is enough will always have enough" Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 12:23
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Just to ramble out loud. I've tried to "have faith that God is good" to give myself something to latch onto. This has sort of evolved into my own personal metaphysics of thinking that the onlything anyone has ever observed is being and being = good. I'm not sure which ancient philosopher I'm plaigarising. I'm just going to keep making up nonsense until I find something comforting lol.
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Apr 27, 2022 19:25
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