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On a cursory search for examples or criticism, I kept finding citations that, “The characters were loosely modeled upon Fritz Leiber himself and his friend Harry Otto Fischer.”
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Apr 27, 2022 03:14
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Scratch the surface of 60's-70's sci-fi/fantasy and you will find all sorts of horrific poo poo. They were big into being inclusive and non-judgemental, often to their future detriment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ58zf0vzB0
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Apr 27, 2022 03:18
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Desert Bus posted:Scratch the surface of 60's-70's sci-fi/fantasy and you will find all sorts of horrific poo poo. They were big into being inclusive and non-judgemental, often to their future detriment. And that's when they're not being super racist, sexist, bigoted, otherwise weird, and not mutually exclusive with the above! Most of what I know about Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser is that their girlfriends tend not to survive the book.
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Apr 27, 2022 03:41
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Kchama posted:Yeah not a single one of that happened in any of the ones I read. Instead it was about flabby vampire tits, 'funny' rapist skulls, ghosts being tortured forever, sexy-time love potion goofs as a demon tries to eat Dresden and Susan, and Dresden being unfairly oppressed and also one of the strongest people on the continent simultaneously. "It gets better 50 books in" is not a very good enticement to read further. it's really weird that you keep implying the skull is a rapist which is really not at all true he's obsessed with lovely romance novels, is....is that what you're thinking of?
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Apr 27, 2022 03:48
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Rockman Reserve posted:it's really weird that you keep implying the skull is a rapist which is really not at all true Does he *not* use love potions to make people have sex who otherwise wouldn't? I'm really asking. I read two-thirds of the first Dresden book and the grinding sexism got to me and I never went back.
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Apr 27, 2022 04:25
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HopperUK posted:Does he *not* use love potions to make people have sex who otherwise wouldn't? Genuinely no, not that I remember at all. White Court vampires feed on lust and they definitely seduce people by vile pheromone magic but it's presented as horrifying as it should be. Bob the Skull just bugs Dresden for trashy romance novels and porno mags, as far as I can remember. e: and it's really worth reiterating/driving the point home - Dresden is by far the dumbest character in the series. The plot of half of the books is him getting tricked into doing a bunch of dirty work for outside forces, and the plot of the other half is him going "well I know this must be a trick, but I'm too smart for that!!!" and then getting duped anyway. The third book has him used as a patsy to kick off an international wizard-vampire war. It's kinda fun to read about a perpetual fuckup through his own overinflated POV. Rockman Reserve has a new favorite as of 04:51 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 04:39
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It's hard to take them seriously as an adult, especially the early stuff. Oh, really? Elric is brooding again? He's a tortured soul? Oh he feels so guilty and conflicted?! Wow! To some extent this can be chalked up to being originally written as an episodic fantasy mag serial, so the same character beats have to get hit every 30 or 40 pages because it's a separate story published in a different issue, and then to make it worse the origin story novel was written after several dozen standalone Elric short stories, so you get through what is simultaneously one of the driest but also one of the silliest books and then you continually get recaps of it in every subsequent Elric book.
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Apr 27, 2022 04:57
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Many of the stories, including the old ones, involve one or both of them falling in love with someone who is at least a teen if not explicitly pre-pubescent. They both tease each other about it and at least seem to have the decency to be embarrassed about it? I can try and skim one of my collections if you want a specific example.
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Apr 27, 2022 07:12
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Rockman Reserve posted:Genuinely no, not that I remember at all. I haven't read any of these books, so I went looking to see what y'all were talking about. According to the dresden files fandom wiki, the passages in question are in Storm Front (there's a title that belongs itt) chapter 8 (the skull insists upon a Although tbh the first part, him insisting on Dresden making him a Also, unrelated to the rape thing: the wiki describes Bob as "a spirit of intellect bound to a human skull. He acts as Harry Dresden's assistant and living encyclopedia of magic." Storm Front came out just four months after the release of Planescape: Torment, a videogame that features a misogynist talking skull who assists the main character and describes himself as a living encyclopedia. I assume four months is way too short a time, given publication turnaround times, for this to not be a coincidence, and the novel was apparently fully written a few years earlier as part of a university course. Helluva suspicious coincidence though.
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Apr 27, 2022 08:17
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Rockman Reserve posted:Genuinely no, not that I remember at all. White Court vampires feed on lust and they definitely seduce people by vile pheromone magic but it's presented as horrifying as it should be. I actually mentioned an event where he does make people have sex for his entertainment. Dresden is watching the news and the news starts talking about a 'wild party' that spontaneously sprung up at a local college around the time the skull left and lasted until the time he came back. quote:Bob eventually came home again, more or less within the twenty-four-hour time limit, I suppose. I turned a deaf ear to rumors of a particularly wild party at the University of Chicago which lasted from Saturday night to Sunday night, and Bob wisely never mentioned it. Now, while this doesn't specify anything, I remembered Fool's Moon, the second book, actually expanded on this! quote:I shook my head. “Forget it. The last time I let you out, you invaded a party over at Loyola and set off an orgy.” So the 'particularly wild party' was an orgy that lasted an entire day that Bob forced upon a bunch of college students! That's rape, chief. That's why I call him the Rape Skull. EDIT: DontMockMySmock posted:I haven't read any of these books, so I went looking to see what y'all were talking about. According to the dresden files fandom wiki, the passages in question are in Storm Front (there's a title that belongs itt) chapter 8 (the skull insists upon a Hah, I was posting that at literally the same time.
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Apr 27, 2022 08:22
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god this draws up the repressed memories of reading marion zimmer bradley’s series about avalon and dark over… then after she had passed, her daughter came forward with some real heinous poo poo about her mom and dad. like i don’t even want to type it bad. but it made me go “holy poo poo” because there’s a throwaway mention in one of the books that made me uneasy even as a teen, and knowing what i do now of what marion thought, i suddenly understand why it’s there and boy do i wish i do not. i will say that there are probably chill sci fi/fantasy writers in the days of old, but there were monsters in both male and female authors.
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Apr 27, 2022 08:34
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Splash Attack posted:god this draws up the repressed memories of reading marion zimmer bradley’s series about avalon and dark over… then after she had passed, her daughter came forward with some real heinous poo poo about her mom and dad. like i don’t even want to type it bad. Whenever I think of 60s scifi now I think of  this thing some goon linked in some thread. It's about Marion Zimmer Bradley's future husband and [child sex abuse]a community of scifi writers/con organizers/other hangers-on and their dilemma of "well I want him to stop letting himself in my house and having sex with my 10 year old, but I don't want people to think I'm a square".
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Apr 27, 2022 10:40
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My closest friend had a real breakdown over the MZB stuff. She'd had a very hard life and childhood in relevant ways and those books really helped her and we had to have a lot of long talks about how the art can still be helpful and you don't have to like, reexamine your healing and your life because the author turned out to be a loving monster. It was kind of heartbreaking.
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Apr 27, 2022 10:58
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DontMockMySmock posted:I haven't read any of these books, so I went looking to see what y'all were talking about. According to the dresden files fandom wiki, the passages in question are in Storm Front (there's a title that belongs itt) chapter 8 (the skull insists upon a Both stories are probably drawing on norse myth here, with a character named Mimir whose severed head Odin keeps around and gets secret information and knowledge from. In Torment, Morte even claims to be a type of encyclopedia called a mimir.
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Apr 27, 2022 17:05
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My partner wanted to re-read the Dresden Files, which I had never heard of, so we listened to a few to them together. They are hot garbage. Every time a new female character is introduced the narrator/main character spends a long time describing her physical appearance and how much he would like to gently caress them. One of the books has the narrator say the following: quote:She looked up at me with a polite smile, her dark hair long and appealing, her shirt cut just low enough to make you notice, but not so low as to make you think less of her.
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Apr 27, 2022 19:40
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jjack229 posted:My partner wanted to re-read the Dresden Files, which I had never heard of, so we listened to a few to them together. They are hot garbage. Yeah, this is the kind of poo poo I couldn't stand. I've had people I trust tell me it gets better later and it's the character, not the writer, but why should I spend time with that loving guy either way, ugh.
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Apr 27, 2022 19:54
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HopperUK posted:Yeah, this is the kind of poo poo I couldn't stand. I've had people I trust tell me it gets better later and it's the character, not the writer, but why should I spend time with that loving guy either way, ugh. EVERY Fantasy series starts out more OK than later books, when they get popular, the editors do less, and the authors fetishes start shining through. Love the genre but eventually you learn how much say, Joe Abercrombie is into lesbians with nice asses.
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Apr 27, 2022 20:26
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Terry Pratchett too?
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Apr 27, 2022 21:02
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Cowslips Warren posted:Terry Pratchett too? Eh.....I mean, Raising Steam...
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Apr 27, 2022 21:06
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Cowslips Warren posted:Terry Pratchett too? It's been a long time since I have gone back to Pratchett, mostly because i'm worried about tainting his legacy in my own head, but so far as I know/remember, there is some problematic stuff in his earlier books because he was British and didn't know any better. He went on to just knock it out of the park in terms of acceptance and inclusiveness. I honestly don't think he ever allowed whatever fetishes he had to seep into his books at any point? He may be the one shining example of a fantasy author who got less creepy and weird. I could be wrong, feel free to correct me. Edit: unless being into mentally strong/badass women is a fetish?
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Apr 27, 2022 21:16
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bunnyofdoom posted:Eh.....I mean, Raising Steam... That's because of Brain problems. Like, sometimes it just isn't going to be possible to write as well as you used to when you are fighting a traumatic brain injury and your editor wants you to at least make some things. It's more sad than anything else. At least I hear "The shepherds crown" was good.
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Apr 27, 2022 21:20
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Josef bugman posted:At least I hear "The shepherds crown" was good. It's good but obviously unpolished and unfinished. 
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Apr 27, 2022 21:21
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Why are there all these fathead American authors but it always seems to be the British ones that show the most of their rear end?
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Apr 27, 2022 21:33
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Desert Bus posted:It's good but obviously unpolished and unfinished. I mean that's okay, still not great but okay.
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Apr 27, 2022 21:48
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:Why are there all these fathead American authors but it always seems to be the British ones that show the most of their rear end? America has probably the largest film and TV industry in the world, so we have a lot more space to spread out our sex criminals.
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Apr 27, 2022 22:01
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raising steam was a weird book in that it didn’t feel like a usual discworld book, but you know… alzheimer’s. i don’t really blame him for it, it just isn’t very good imo… but i also feel like it was a farewell to discworld for him. the fact that he had rincewind enjoy himself in his cameo and nothing bad happened to him was very  .
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Apr 27, 2022 22:05
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Desert Bus posted:Edit: unless being into mentally strong/badass women is a fetish? A fetish we should all strive to have.
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Apr 27, 2022 22:37
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honestly my apologies for not remembering the Dresden love potion stuff, I listened to the first two books during a long drive and that whole plot point musta blown right by me
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Apr 28, 2022 00:00
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The only MZB that I actually read end to end was Black Trillium, her collab with Andre Norton, who wrote one of my all time favorite books but otherwise I’ve never vibed with; and Julian May, who I’ve never read at all. I haven’t read anything to indicate Norton was a part of much of anything aside from writing a lot of stuff I find obnoxious to read…
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Apr 28, 2022 01:13
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Desert Bus posted:EVERY Fantasy series starts out more OK than later books, when they get popular, the editors do less, and the authors fetishes start shining through. Love the genre but eventually you learn how much say, Joe Abercrombie is into lesbians with nice asses. I think the Rivers of London series is a reversal of that trend—but even early on it wasn’t close to Dresden Files level uncomfortable.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:36
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Desert Bus posted:EVERY Fantasy series starts out more OK than later books, when they get popular, the editors do less, and the authors fetishes start shining through. Love the genre but eventually you learn how much say, Joe Abercrombie is into lesbians with nice asses. Fashionable Jorts posted:Whenever I start reading a scifi or fantasy novel written by a dude, I pretty much say a little prayer for the women in the story since 9 times out of 10 its gonna be a Bad Time for them, intentional or not.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:43
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Desert Bus posted:EVERY Fantasy series starts out more OK than later books, when they get popular, the editors do less, and the authors fetishes start shining through. Love the genre but eventually you learn how much say, Joe Abercrombie is into lesbians with nice asses. Dresden Files is suppose to be the Miraculous Opposite, where after 500 books it finally becomes readable, instead of being hyper trash Rockman Reserve posted:honestly my apologies for not remembering the Dresden love potion stuff, I listened to the first two books during a long drive and that whole plot point musta blown right by me It's thrown out there like punchlines to a joke in both books, so it's not really surprising you missed it.
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Apr 28, 2022 05:42
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Josef bugman posted:That's because of Brain problems. Like, sometimes it just isn't going to be possible to write as well as you used to when you are fighting a traumatic brain injury and your editor wants you to at least make some things. Love to come in on Pratchett's birthday and see the "you can tell when the Alzheimers kicked in" poo poo has spread to yet another thread.
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Apr 28, 2022 10:05
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Is there another explanation? I don't want to be down on Terry pratchett, his work is incredible and he's seriously one of the best writers and creators of fictional worlds that Britain has ever produced. But I do feel that there was a dip in the quality of the writing post Unseen Academicals and the apogee of his writing was Night Watch. Still an incredible writer of course, no question. Sorry.
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Apr 28, 2022 10:45
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It's possible that it was a more indirect effect. Pratchett tended to write by getting a complete draft of the story done quickly then refining and refining until he'd polished it all to a mirror shine, and rather than Alzheimer's directly impacting his ability to write he might have just been cutting back on that refinement in order to get the stories he wanted to write written while he still had time. Like, the plight of the goblins was clearly something he wanted to get written into the Discworld, seeing how many of the late books centre around them.
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Apr 28, 2022 10:51
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Josef bugman posted:Is there another explanation? I don't want to be down on Terry pratchett, his work is incredible and he's seriously one of the best writers and creators of fictional worlds that Britain has ever produced. But I do feel that there was a dip in the quality of the writing post Unseen Academicals and the apogee of his writing was Night Watch. It's not a question of finding another explanation for the decline in his last few books, although there is one. It's that every single time it comes up a bunch of loving phrenologists race to tell everyone how they could tell Pterry was in cognitive decline from Book X. It's offensive.
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Apr 28, 2022 11:40
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Jedit posted:It's not a question of finding another explanation for the decline in his last few books, although there is one. It's that every single time it comes up a bunch of loving phrenologists race to tell everyone how they could tell Pterry was in cognitive decline from Book X. It's offensive. Having nursed my dad through years of decline from Alzheimers I think you're off the mark here. I understand it's not pleasant but it's not unreasonable for people to talk about this when the quality of Pterry's work comes up, since it's such a marked thing. People aren't swaggering around all proud of themselves, they're just talking about it and most folk are being respectful and clearly feeling sad. You're reading glee that isn't there, I think.
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Apr 28, 2022 11:42
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Around Unseen Academicals he apparently basically had to re-learn how to write from scratch, and from then was mostly dictating the books.Tenebrais posted:It's possible that it was a more indirect effect. Pratchett tended to write by getting a complete draft of the story done quickly then refining and refining until he'd polished it all to a mirror shine, and rather than Alzheimer's directly impacting his ability to write he might have just been cutting back on that refinement in order to get the stories he wanted to write written while he still had time. Probably both, trying to get some books out while he still has time and also while he really can't do his old process any more. The Shepherd's Crown was as good a send-off for the series as they could manage, I'd say.
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Apr 28, 2022 12:04
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Jedit posted:Love to come in on Pratchett's birthday and see the "you can tell when the Alzheimers kicked in" poo poo has spread to yet another thread. Yeah, I've noticed in the last few months that whenever Prachett comes up Goons come jumping out of the woodwork to tell us all his last couple of books weren't very good. Is this gonna be the new " Well did you know John lennon beat his wife!" ?
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Apr 28, 2022 13:06
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WaywardWoodwose posted:Yeah, I've noticed in the last few months that whenever Prachett comes up Goons come jumping out of the woodwork to tell us all his last couple of books weren't very good. The Beaten Ono Band
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Apr 28, 2022 13:11
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