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Also, I'll be honest, the gifted and talented attitude bothers me personally
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Apr 28, 2022 01:58
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I was in a gifted program and it was complete bullshit. All the gifted kids lived in houses, all the regular stream kids lived in apartment buildings. Even at 10 years old I knew it was a thing to keep middle class kids and poorer kids separated. It was really that blatant.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:00
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I don't want to reveal too much about my background but if you're going to throw out something as bold as '99% of Ed literature says it's bunk' then you'll have to bring receipts.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:02
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love to have people tell me my kids school district evaluation indicating three standard deviations from the norm in verbal comprehension, visual spatial reasoning and working memory isn’t real because their ideology doesn’t like it. because I wish it wasn’t real. because it’s a gigantic pain in the rear end that makes life and parenting much loving harder. they should have called it something else . look, the rich shitheads that want the label and capture programs I think basically all of us will think they can go gently caress themselves. but yer talking to people with clinical evaluations done by professionals and districts on their kids. usually because we desperately needed help. Bar Ran Dun has issued a correction as of 02:24 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 02:10
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what do you do btw? how many students do you teach a year?
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Apr 28, 2022 02:11
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let’s assume you’re a teacher. let’s assume you have a class of thirty each year. do the math on how many of these kids (three deviations from the norm) you’ll encounter in a thirty year career.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:22
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unlimited shrimp posted:I don't want to reveal too much about my background but if you're going to throw out something as bold as '99% of Ed literature says it's bunk' then you'll have to bring receipts. The research says that "any child can be gifted and talented if instructed correctly," which means there is no such thing as a student who isn't capable of being "gifted and talented" barring developmental delays or disabilities. G and T classification is based entirely on achievement scores and, if all students can achieve at a high level, there is no difference between a normal child and a gifted one. Research also looks pretty extensively at the equity of gifted and talented programs, which are incredibly skewed towards student populations containing wealthy white students with other opportunities and support outside of school.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:24
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yesterday my daughter rolled from her front to her back for the first time and laughed really hard at one of her own farts.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:26
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What research?
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Apr 28, 2022 02:27
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Bar Ran Dun posted:love to have people tell me my kids school district evaluation indicating three standard deviations from the norm in verbal comprehension, visual spatial reasoning and working memory isn’t real because their ideology doesn’t like it. Bar Ran Dun posted:let’s assume you’re a teacher. let’s assume you have a class of thirty each year. do the math on how many of these kids (three deviations from the norm) you’ll encounter in a thirty year career. Bar Ran Dun posted:what do you do btw? how many students do you teach a year? Uh, 3 standard deviations on what assessment, performed by which professionals (in what environment?), what norm sample, how many assessments were conducted, how varied were the assessments, what did they measure? etc. etc. It's very possible you have one of the insanely small minority of kids who will someday get a college degree before turning 14. Those children do exist.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:28
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i had never seen or heard of a gifted program in canada but i guess we have them too. i never thought it'd be a decision I'd have to make for my kid. my wife and I actually have some disagreement over French immersion (which is available to everyone) because she sees it as a way of getting a kid into psuedo-priveleged stream. I went through it and think it really helped me develop good language skills, even if my French ultimately wasn't amazing by the end of it. lots to read up on this stuff I guess. I just ask people give each other a bit of a benefit of the doubt on this stuff if there are disagreements, everyone's trying to do the best they can for their kids.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:29
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Dreylad posted:yesterday my daughter rolled from her front to her back for the first time and laughed really hard at one of her own farts. 
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Apr 28, 2022 02:29
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yeah g&t based on achievement is bullshit because it can be coached and I think it should be entirely removed from qualification criteria. but there are real kids for who development does occur out of order and early. and it’s really really lovely to broadly assert that isn’t real. especially as it is quite unpleasant to function with in rigid educational systems with it.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:33
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unlimited shrimp posted:What research? Commentary Regarding Bui, Craig, and Imberman (2011): Is Gifted Education a Bright Idea? Assessing the Impacts of Gifted and Talented Programs on Achievement. The author is Tonya Moon. The study they're commenting on is also listed, including the authors who published the first one. (just gonna start listing them) The Challenges of Achieving Equity Within Public School Gifted and Talented Programs Peters, Scott J A Meta-Analysis of Gifted and Talented Identification Practices Hodges, Jaret ; Tay, Juliana ; Maeda, Yukiko ; Gentry, Marcia Do Students in Gifted Programs Perform Better? Linking Gifted Program Participation to Achievement and Nonachievement Outcomes Redding, Christopher ; Grissom, Jason A From the Summary posted:We provide evidence on whether the typical gifted program indeed benefits elementary students’ achievement and nonachievement outcomes, using nationally representative data from the Early Childhood Longitudinal Study, 2010–2011 kindergarten cohort. Leveraging within-school and within-student comparisons, we find that participating in a school’s gifted program is associated with reading and mathematics achievement for the average student, although associations are small. We find no evidence of a relationship between gifted participation and student absences, reported engagement with school, or student mobility. Black and low-income students do not see the academic gains that their peers experience when receiving gifted services.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:34
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good news is she likes tummy time just fine now that she can do it herself, bad news is I guess this the beginning of her becoming increasingly mobile so chill times are over
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Apr 28, 2022 02:35
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Dreylad posted:yesterday my daughter rolled from her front to her back for the first time and laughed really hard at one of her own farts. 
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Apr 28, 2022 02:36
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Bar Ran Dun posted:yeah g&t based on achievement is bullshit because it can be coached and I think it should be entirely removed from qualification criteria. NeatHeteroDude posted:Uhhh there really isn't any research that validates the idea of a "gifted" student existing compared to "normal" or "dumb" kids. Again, it sounds like your student is one of the tiny minority of kids who has something else going on in their brain development that cannot be reproduced via behavior reinforcement and instruction. e: changed "maybe" to "it sounds like" because it genuinely sounds like your child is very smart for their age.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:40
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NeatHeteroDude posted:Uh, 3 standard deviations on what assessment, performed by which professionals (in what environment?), what norm sample, how many assessments were conducted, how varied were the assessments, what did they measure? etc. etc. WISC-V by the district psychologist as part of an IEP. NeatHeteroDude posted:It's very possible you have one of the insanely small minority of kids who will someday get a college degree before turning 14. Those children do exist. that tiny sliver is what I’m referring too. see and this is you misunderstanding that sliver. because if you had any experience with them you know how dumb early college would be for most of them.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:43
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't part of the whole discussion around G&T that those programs were for kids with abnormal early development (e.g. hyperlexia, spectrum disorders, etc), and that because of various factors it became synonymous with "high achieving geniuses" even though that wasn't the intent? Seems like the current discussion is muddied in the same way. I think some folks are talking about G&T from the first perspective (basically special needs) and others are talking from the second (mega genius babies)
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Apr 28, 2022 02:45
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Dreylad posted:good news is she likes tummy time just fine now that she can do it herself, bad news is I guess this the beginning of her becoming increasingly mobile so chill times are over Maybe, maybe not. Our eldest was pretty chill once mobile, our second liked to explore, but was pretty cruisy about it. Our third, currently 13 mths, is fast, tall, strong and has figured out stools and will get his hands on anything he can reach and has claimed the most breakages of the three. He is NOT a chill explorer. In short, some babies just want to watch the world burn.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:45
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NeatHeteroDude posted:Again, it sounds like your student is one of the tiny minority of kids who has something else going on in their brain development that cannot be reproduced via behavior reinforcement and instruction. yes and I am. and my wife is. and the first girl I had a crush is, and all of my school peer group from 2nd to 10th grade was. that tiny minority is what we are talking about. gently caress the rich people who want the label.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:51
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Bar Ran Dun posted:WISC-V by the district psychologist as part of an IEP. Uh, i thought about it, but I'm not going to litigate this anymore.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:51
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NeatHeteroDude posted:Commentary Regarding Bui, Craig, and Imberman (2011): Is Gifted Education a Bright Idea? Assessing the Impacts of Gifted and Talented Programs on Achievement. The author is Tonya Moon. The study they're commenting on is also listed, including the authors who published the first one. Okay, I thought it might be along these lines. Unfortunately, I am no longer able to sneak on to sites like Sage for the full PDFs, but in reading the abstracts I'm noticing that the focus of these articles appears to be on the iniquitous nature of G&T programming, or the process selecting for G&T programming, and not on the concreteness of a G&T diagnosis or the relative need of students carrying that diagnosis. "These resources are better allocated elsewhere" is not the same as "giftedness is hokum." Tangential questions: Do you believe IQ is "real" at least insofar as it's predictive within the strictures of our actually-existing hellworld? And, what do you think effective Special Education programming achieves, ideally?
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Apr 28, 2022 02:51
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unlimited shrimp posted:Okay, I thought it might be along these lines. Unfortunately, I am no longer able to sneak on to sites like Sage for the full PDFs, but in reading the abstracts I'm noticing that the focus of these articles appears to be on the iniquitous nature of G&T programming, or the process selecting for G&T programming, and not on the concreteness of a G&T diagnosis or the relative need of students carrying that diagnosis. "These resources are better allocated elsewhere" is not the same as "giftedness is hokum." That's true, and I can definitely be more specific when I make claims like that in the future. I don't think IQ tests, by themselves, are good for anything except one measure as part of an array of assessments that we can use to screen students for learning and developmental disabilities. If a student's IQ is abnormally low, that helps me build evidence that they should be given an IEP or specialized instruction. Even then, we'd want to use multiple assessments before making a decision to place a student in special ed. I don't want to accidentally fall back into the other conversation about how assessments can/should be used, though. When I think special education, I typically think of students with performance deficits compared to their peers. For that, the goal is always full inclusion in a general education (non-sped) classroom and the termination of services. That's sometimes on the table, but we mostly get between there and somewhere else. For high achieving students, we mostly just want them to care about school and continue to be engaged in a way that allows them to keep momentum in the future. It's silly that some teachers don't do this, but we should be differentiating instruction for low and high achieving students!
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Apr 28, 2022 02:58
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We could probably fight a lot about what "inclusion" means but let's crack a beer and marvel at our kids instead  My kiddo starts kindergarten in the Fall, which is weird, because I'm pretty sure he was a toddler like last week.
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Apr 28, 2022 03:11
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unlimited shrimp posted:We could probably fight a lot about what "inclusion" means but let's crack a beer and marvel at our kids instead i have no idea what the hell is going on at my kids kindergarten but lately she’s asking me about 3d printers and what we can do with them. I probably should ask the teacher was there a movie or something about it in class. or there is a kid bragging they have a
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Apr 28, 2022 03:23
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NeatHeteroDude posted:Uh, i thought about it, but I'm not going to litigate this anymore. I’m angrier than I should be because we didn’t get the help we needed during the pandemic. the way you’re approaching the discussion is what caused it. even though we knew what we were dealing with because both my and my wife’s parents had to deal with it. no one would believe even us when presented with family history and the districts own screening indicating. my sons god mother is a principle’s daughter, mother in law at school district, my sister educator, son’s godmother a special education teacher. we knew what we were dealing with and were ignored causing much harm. you are getting anger you aren’t responsible for. I don’t even disagree with your general point, everyone should get what these programs offer.
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Apr 28, 2022 03:25
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hold on i thought babies stayed like this forever, what's this toddler stuff
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Apr 28, 2022 05:01
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Toddlers are amazing. More than worth the meltdowns, and I don't even mind the meltdowns cuz they're just learning how to get a hold of all these new things they're becoming aware of called "emotions" and "the world in general" lol Ever since this past easter one of my toddler's favorite things is to put her toys and crayons in the plastic easter eggs, then open them back up and go "Surprise!"
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Apr 28, 2022 05:43
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unlimited shrimp posted:
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Apr 28, 2022 13:03
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51% efficacy in moderna trials for kids under 5 lol, covids never going away folks
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Apr 28, 2022 16:53
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:Toddlers are amazing. More than worth the meltdowns, and I don't even mind the meltdowns cuz they're just learning how to get a hold of all these new things they're becoming aware of called "emotions" and "the world in general" lol The inscrutable nature of toddler logic is easily one of my favorite things in the universe. I took my 3yo to buy a couple large helium balloons for our 6yo's recent birthday. She wanted a balloon too, which was fine - she chose a large letter 'K'. No, her name doesn't start with K. No, none of our names start with K. No, none of our names even has a K in them. I offered to get a 'V' for her name. Nope. Why the 'K'? She said it was 'shiny'.
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Apr 28, 2022 17:05
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAl5UzEiyJQ
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Apr 28, 2022 17:54
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toddler demon had a meltdown because his toy broom couldn't reach the fan
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Apr 28, 2022 18:58
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My girl's toddler meltdowns over goofy poo poo just makes me even more puzzled at the parents that get straight up bullied by their kids later in life Kid you can collapse to the ground all you want, you ain't getting any more chips, AND I'm gonna tell people you're crying about nothing 
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Apr 28, 2022 19:02
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While my kiddo still has meltdowns at times (mostly when hungry or sleepy) she's doing great for what I expected at 3. During her birthday party at the start of the month her friend was melting down because she didn't want to leave so my kiddo went up to her, put an arm around her and said "it's okay to be upset but sometimes we have to leave" and I wanted to cry lol just the sweetest thing ever
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Apr 28, 2022 20:10
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The Nastier Nate posted:51% efficacy in moderna trials for kids under 5 That's the efficacy against infection which is pretty much what adult shots are at these days I think But yeah COVID is now life
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Apr 28, 2022 20:51
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I don’t have kids but I do have a niece and nephew so I’m gonna post here anyway  MacheteZombie posted:While my kiddo still has meltdowns at times (mostly when hungry or sleepy) she's doing great for what I expected at 3. this is how my 3yo nephew is he’s so kindhearted, if he wants to do something and we can’t we go ‘well we can’t go outside cause it’s too cold and windy and we might get a cold’ instead of throwing a fit he just goes  ‘alright, I understand’ and then happily plays with his trucks or stuff.
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Apr 28, 2022 20:56
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an easy way to avoid melt downs is just give kids time to set shift. like I tell my kid we’re going to do X in Y minutes do you understand? my kid needs a lot of pre planning so it’s easier to into to the next thing. it would be like if you were in the middle of your tv binge and somebody turns it off right in the middle and is like ok you are now forced to put on pants and go to your least favorite place right now. it’s all about managing set shifting really. but it’s a ton of work but it can pay off if you remaining consistent. however as one can tell by reading this thread. it’s not a one size fits all. each kid is different and have to manage expectations accordingly. one thing that can backfire is if we have too high of expectations of our kids.
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Apr 28, 2022 21:34
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My 3 y/o yesterday: "I don't want to walk on the sidewalk, I wanna get run over"
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Apr 29, 2022 09:31
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