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Technically correct. The best kind of correct.
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Apr 28, 2022 01:56
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Arc Hammer posted:I guess being known as "Person who lost to the Red Comet and survived" would be better than "Jerid's first girlfriend (RIP)" I mostly remember her for kicking jerid in the face after he tried to punch her
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Apr 28, 2022 01:57
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What relevance would Nanking have to someone living nearly 100 years into the UC
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Apr 28, 2022 02:01
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Waffleman_ posted:What relevance would Nanking have to someone living nearly 100 years into the UC Inspiration for the author. The backstory for the character is that his family was killed by Federation occupiers in his village. Which is a bizarre because it implies that Zeon was occupied after the war (it wasnt) or that they had set up entire villages and towns on earth during the time between the Landfall invasions in earl 0079 and the evacuation back to space in November/December.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:24
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Arc Hammer posted:Inspiration for the author. The backstory for the character is that his family was killed by Federation occupiers in his village. Which is a bizarre because it implies that Zeon was occupied after the war (it wasnt) or that they had set up entire villages and towns on earth during the time between the Landfall invasions in earl 0079 and the evacuation back to space in November/December. Zeon had time to build multiple sprawling underground complexes in that ~9 months I'm sure they had time to build some base camps.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:49
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California base were fédération bases that got taken over. And as far as I know not underground
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Apr 28, 2022 02:50
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Gaius Marius posted:California base were fédération bases that got taken over. And as far as I know not underground We also see that Zeon mostly had to work with local resources, either through trade or forceful seizure, depending on the locale and the commander. Nobody was setting up their own cities. Closest thing you had to Zeon civilians on Earth was the USO types.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:53
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Gaius Marius posted:California base were fédération bases that got taken over. And as far as I know not underground I'm talking about the base in 08th MS team... how does one even build something like that and keep it a secret
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Apr 28, 2022 02:58
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I was just gonna post that maybe you were talking about guineas underground hanger. Really though it's just one hardened bunker. It's difficult but feasible.
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Apr 28, 2022 02:59
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War and Pieces posted:I'm talking about the base in 08th MS team... how does one even build something like that and keep it a secret They used four Dom engines.
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Apr 28, 2022 03:05
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Kanos posted:Fukui is an extremely fervent Japanese nationalist who became famous for the Japanese equivalent of Tom Clancy novels before writing for Gundam, if that contextualizes things. Would've been nice if they hadn't given him the Space Battleship Yamato franchise. A franchise already weird when it handles the Imperial Japanese Navy.
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Apr 28, 2022 03:05
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According to Code Fairy Zeon had some real nice mansions full of cakes and christmas decorations.
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Apr 28, 2022 03:14
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ImpAtom posted:According to Code Fairy Zeon had some real nice mansions full of cakes and christmas decorations. IIRC, that was a corporate retreat for Earth Federation bigwigs that they, ahem, borrowed.
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Apr 28, 2022 03:20
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Apr 28, 2022 03:21
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Gripweed posted:hell yeah another OYW Gundam They're leaving room to release a Perfect Heihachi kit in a few years.
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Apr 28, 2022 03:33
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Kanos posted:The dude was wildly in love with her, found her at a low point in her life after 00 S1, took her in, and let her stay drunk out of her loving gourd the entire time she was with him and was furiously angry when she left and he found out why. It's not really hard to draw icky conclusions from "I want to keep a woman I love very close to me but also have no problems letting her engage in substance abuse the entire time". I don’t know if the special editions added stuff, but am I missing something with this? I thought Sumeragi was the one that sought out Billy in the first place immediately after the post S1 fallout. By the time S2 rolls around, Billy obviously didn’t approve of her drinking and tried stopping her at least once on screen, but he didn’t want to kick her out because she was pretty much homeless as far as he knew, and didn’t have a lot of success trying to talk to her (hence why his first reaction when Setsuna showed up was “oh poo poo it’s one of her friends! Maybe he can help get her out of this funk”) When she left, he was less mad about her leaving because she found a new purpose and motivation in life, but more mad that she was a part of Celestial loving Being MechaX fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 04:51
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We really need more gryps-conflict and first neozeon war gundams
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Apr 28, 2022 05:29
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Just an army of Zeta knockoffs.
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Apr 28, 2022 05:49
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Arc Hammer posted:Just an army of Zeta knockoffs. They already have the Re-GZ and the Zeta Plus. I've talked before about the minimal Neo Zeon war material even in manga, and I still think a lot of that is due to how little ZZ Gundam cares about the war beyond wherever the Gundam team is at the moment. The original Gundam and Zeta both had a lot of gesturing about how there were big things happening everywhere, but ZZ barely had anything beyond whatever Judau and co were participating in. Also, you know. It's the least popular mainline UC show in Japan, even falling below the TV edit of UNicorn.
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Apr 28, 2022 06:19
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It'll have to be Zeta knockoffs because Bandai loves repackaging Zeta redesigns for their gunpla and that'll be the primary mover to ever go back to ZZ.
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Apr 28, 2022 06:24
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Folks I just rewatched 08th MS Team and I don’t know what you’re talking about when you say the last episode is bad and goes against the series. I saw the words “the end” pop up in the corner after Shiro destroyed the Apsalus and whatnot. I turned off my bluray because it said the end and an epilogue would not make sense given the last scene. Anyway next up I’ll be starting my rewatch of G-Gundam.
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Apr 28, 2022 07:47
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chiasaur11 posted:They already have the Re-GZ and the Zeta Plus. ZZ is a bit weird, lots of stuff was kind of ignored from Zeta despite it being a sequel, most surviving characters from Zeta did not show up. The biggest connection was Haman.
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Apr 28, 2022 08:15
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Does any material ever cover what happens to the Gryps laser after Bright uses it on the Titans fleet, or does it just not show up again until Unicorn?
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Apr 28, 2022 10:53
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ManSedan posted:Does any material ever cover what happens to the Gryps laser after Bright uses it on the Titans fleet, or does it just not show up again until Unicorn? Probably some manga deals with it by now, possibly in contradictory ways, but if there is one, I haven't seen it.
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Apr 28, 2022 11:18
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Kanos posted:Fukui is an extremely fervent Japanese nationalist who became famous for the Japanese equivalent of Tom Clancy novels before writing for Gundam, if that contextualizes things. Is he? My understanding is that he's actually a fairly left leaning dude who wrote a bunch of books that feature villains conservatives started idealizing, despite the apparent intent. Which makes more sense, both of how the guy can idolize Tomino and his works, and of why Tomino apparently personally picked him as the author of (one of) the Turn A novelizations. Like, a description I saw of one of his earlier novels, Lorelei of the Sea is basically: quote:Lorelei is about how imperial japan and the Nazis are evil because they conspire to help detonate a third nuclear bomb to destroy Japan in an act of ritualistic sacrifice, and also because they turn a young girl into, what is essentially, a Newtype weapon powering a super submarine; the hero realizes how evil they are and saves her, before she sacrifices herself to save Tokyo from the nuke because self-sacrifice is good unlike the kamikaze that the Imperial Japan characters and Nazis were planning, since one is for others while one is, ultimately, a selfish act. Which sounds similar to something Tomino would write. His Japanese Wikipedia page has him quoted talking about how he wanted to write something akin to a Die Hard film for one of his books (it doesn't say which one), but realized that it'd be the Japanese Self Defense Forces that'd make most sense to react in such a scenario; however, when he looked into it, he realized they couldn't react to a scenario like that, so he just wrote the story with some changes in the setting so they could act in those situations. It was done to allow for them to be part of a high stakes action story though, not for any political diatribe. And then quoted as saying that when he wrote Aegis of an Exiled Country in the year 2000, which might be the book he talks about in the previous quote, there wasn't any major debate on the Self Defense Forces, but that it did become a much more prominent talking point in the following years. Which isn't really on him. Perhaps most telling of his own self image, he also says that he wants to write ridiculous stories in a ridiculous style. All of which also falls in line with the writing of the Unicorn OVA, since it's an over the top story made to emulate Tomino's works (even if you want to say it's done badly or without understanding what it's emulating) with changes made ultimately just for the story's own sake and rather left leaning heroes acting against selfish, conservative villains that it's not hard to imagine people idealizing. And which are idealized even within the story. Actually, speaking of Tomino, he seems like he's at least acquainted with the guy on a personal level, since Fukui's Wiki page notes that Tomino is the one that set him up with his wife as well as novelizing one of Tomino's animations. Again, given Tomino's own feelings on the Japanese military and Self Defense Force, I can't imagine he'd be so chummy if Fukui was the nationalistic hawk he's sometimes portrayed as. MonsterEnvy posted:ZZ is a bit weird, lots of stuff was kind of ignored from Zeta despite it being a sequel, most surviving characters from Zeta did not show up. The biggest connection was Haman. What Zeta cast are ignored? The only ones that ZZ doesn't acknowledge are minor characters from the Titans. Well, besides Amuro; who was only a tertiary character in Zeta anyway. tsob fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 11:46
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https://twitter.com/gackted/status/1318633844413661184?s=21&t=PZsiPXSb54D1Up6pySeEeg
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Apr 28, 2022 12:52
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tsob posted:Is he? My understanding is that he's actually a fairly left leaning dude who wrote a bunch of books that feature villains conservatives started idealizing, despite the apparent intent. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/09/world/asia/for-a-hungry-audience-a-japanese-tom-clancy.html Have it from the horse's mouth: quote:In "Samurai Commando," scheduled to be released in the United States late this year, a Colonel Matoba wants to alter Japan's history to spare the country its "horrible defeat" in World War II and its present humiliation. "I will start all over again from this age to create a strong country that will make Heisei Japanese proud to be Japanese," he said, using the word for the present era of Emperor Akihito. If your intent is to show that imperialists are wrongheaded and incorrect, writing numerous stories which happen to have charismatic villains spouting the same sort of imperialist ideology ad infinitum is a suspicious way to do it. Unicorn itself has a lot of warning flags, such as Zinnerman's backstory as alluded to upthread. The dude's work is far from the most odious Japanese nationalist work out there - after all, there's stuff like GATE floating around - but Fukui's work definitely leans uncomfortably close to glorifying and romanticizing that kind of ideology.
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Apr 28, 2022 13:25
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Now I kind of want to see what Oshii and Fukui would do in collaboration considering Oshii very frequently dipped his toes into the discussion around Japan's comfortable lie in the 80s and 90s that things were alright even as the country pretends it's not involved in foreign conflicts. Both writers recognize the social divide going on politically but are coming at it from different angles.
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Apr 28, 2022 13:28
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Kanos posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/09/world/asia/for-a-hungry-audience-a-japanese-tom-clancy.html It seems like he's trying to reflect a social problem in his works. Which is what it says in the thing you quoted? The world feels directionless so reactionaries with powerful moral visions will gain traction and there are no real alternate visions of the future to counteract them.
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Apr 28, 2022 15:24
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I'd say that Zinnerman's Rape of Nanking backstory speaks more from ignorance of the source material so its more out of place as a political statement. It's still an allusion to war atrocities committed by Imperial Japan but it doesn't feel applicable to use them for a Zeon character. He could just as easily have had his family killed during Operation Star One or Odessa as younger soldiers, or his wife and child shot down trying to get the hell out of a space battle. Man with dead family using his loss to fuel his revenge doesn't need a "Feddies burned down our village" angle to it when there's several other ways to get the message across. I just can't wrap my head around the Muslim suicide family plot as anything other than a gross stereotype that doesn't really add anything to the story. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 15:29
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Kanos posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/09/world/asia/for-a-hungry-audience-a-japanese-tom-clancy.html What is "it" in this case? Cause you seem like you think that's quite a definitive statement, and I don't think it is. He's basically just saying that he thinks charismatic people can take advantage of social apathy to enact authoritarian goals. Which...yeah? Not only does that sound like he's describing a problem, especially when it's the villains doing so and they're ultimately defeated, but I would also say does a fairly good job describing a lot of Tomino's works too. That sounds like a great description of G-Reco for instance, with Cumpa trying to start a war to invigorate a society he feels has grown staid and that a lot of the protagonists, Bellri especially, have no strong vision of the world. He wants to explore the world to find things out for himself by the end, but he never has a particularly strong vision of the world. Nor do Aida, Raraiya etc. The same is true of Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta Gundam, ZZ, F91, Victory and Turn-A too. A lot of which include charismatic villains with Imperialist ideologies, as well as the villains being charismatic in general, the heroes mostly having no strong vision for the world etc. poo poo, if I didn't think Fukui was doing it to ape Tomino rather than because it's something he noticed himself, I'd say it was downright prescient to think that was a problem worth talking about, given the state of the world in general and not just Japan specifically. Kanos posted:Unicorn itself has a lot of warning flags, such as Zinnerman's backstory as alluded to upthread. Why is it a warning flag to have a soldier have a backstory that involves death and rape, in and of itself? It'd be one thing if, like the way the Rape of Nanking is brushed aside by the Japanese government, that the narrative was forgiving of it and/or brushed it aside, but at least in the OVA (which Fukui also wrote), his backstory is just that he's motivated to act by it happening, and it's a rather important part of his backstory because Banagher is able to point out the inherent hypocrisy in his actions specifically because he's so infuriated by the murder and rape he witnessed that he's enabling others to go out and do the same. Which is part of what pulls him from a path of vengeance into working with Banagher to affect a better future instead. Did the novels make his backstory markedly worse to say it's a red flag? tsob fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 15:45
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Gripweed posted:It seems like he's trying to reflect a social problem in his works. Which is what it says in the thing you quoted? The world feels directionless so reactionaries with powerful moral visions will gain traction and there are no real alternate visions of the future to counteract them. I don't really have a magic view into the man's head, but when someone writes multiple stories about highly charismatic pro-imperialist villains who are given the most powerful moral statements in those stories I begin to assume that the writer themselves resonates with those ideals. Like Tomino was addressing a social problem in Mobile Suit Gundam(helping square the concept that Imperial Japan was wrong and evil with the fact that plenty of legitimately good people fought for it), but despite featuring plenty of memorable and likeable Zeon soldiers fighting for the Glorious Lost Cause he's still very careful to make sure that Zeon is never really depicted as admirable in the least. tsob posted:Why is it a warning flag to have a soldier have a backstory that involves death and rape, in and of itself? It'd be one thing if, like the way the Rape of Nanking is brushed aside by the Japanese government, that the narrative was forgiving of it and/or brushed it aside, but at least in the OVA (which Fukui also wrote), his backstory is just that he's motivated to act by it happening, and it's a rather important part of his backstory because Banagher is able to point out the inherent hypocrisy in his actions specifically because he's so infuriated by the murder and rape he witnessed that he's enabling others to go out and do the same. Which is part of what pulls him from a path of vengeance into working with Banagher to affect a better future instead. Unicorn leans extremely heavily into Zeon as the noble lost cause and Zeon soldiers as downtrodden and pitiable warriors who fought the good fight and lost instead of what they actually were in the previous material(an invading conquering army from space that genocided billions of people). The very statement that somehow Zinnerman's hometown was invaded, raped, and murdered by Federation soldiers - despite the timeline not making any loving sense at all - already redefines the nature of the One Year War conflict by turning the Federation into the aggressors and obfuscates the nature of the conflict by both sidesing it. This is a really common thing with Japanese imperialist propaganda, where Japan's atrocities were justified in defense of the Japanese people and the state. Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 15:54
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Kanos posted:I don't really have a magic view into the man's head, but when someone writes multiple stories about highly charismatic pro-imperialist villains who are given the most powerful moral statements in those stories I begin to assume that the writer themselves resonates with those ideals. What admirable qualities or powerful moral statements do his villains make? I'm only familiar with his Gundam works, but I wouldn't say that either Full Frontal or Zoltan have many admirable qualities or make powerful moral statements. I think that some people within the show and, even within society, might find them admirable (well, find Frontal admirable; Zoltan not so much) but that the story at least tries to paint him as ultimately quite cynical and empty, despite his charisma. Which is probably meant to convey something to people who do find that attitude admirable. I'm not familiar with his other novels though, so if you are then I'd be interested to hear what qualities the villains have that make them admirable in the real world, and not just within the fiction as a means to make them compelling and, ultimately, to illustrate something via their defeat. Kanos posted:Unicorn leans extremely heavily into Zeon as the noble lost cause and Zeon soldiers as downtrodden and pitiable warriors who fought the good fight and lost instead of what they actually were in the previous material(an invading conquering army from space that genocided billions of people). The very statement that somehow Zinnerman's hometown was invaded, raped, and murdered by Federation soldiers(despite the timeline not making any loving sense at all) already redefines the nature of the One Year War conflict by turning the Federation into the aggressors and obfuscates the nature of the conflict by both sidesing it. This is a really common thing with Japanese imperialist propaganda, where Japan's atrocities were justified in defense of the Japanese people and the state. Unicorn leans extremely heavily into soldiers in general being downtrodden and pitiable warriors with good intentions taken advantage of by bad leaders. Which is completely in line with how Tomino wrote his Gundam entries and how Gundam generally views things. Not to mention that every other OVA that told stories about UC made changes to the timeline. 08th MS Team established the GM as pre-existing the Gundam by several months, 0080 had Side 6 basically untouched despite 0079 establishing it as heavily damaged by the war and 0083 invented a whole new conspiracy to form the Titans. Unicorn didn't do anything new in that regard by messing with the timeline. Nor did it redefine the One Year War conflict by making the Federation the aggressors, since all Zinnerman's backstory established was that soldiers stationed in Side 3 after the war were rather callous with the civilians. Which is reflective of a lot of occupying forces post war. Including American forces in Japan, but not even close to exclusively there. The fact they were doesn't justify anything though, and that's the entire point of Banagher beating Zinnerman in the show. tsob fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 16:03
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In the interests of not derailing this thread with an argument about propaganda and allegory even longer and messier than this one already is that will end up only being tangentially related to Gundam, I'm going to cut it here and say that we're going to have to agree to disagree.
Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 16:16
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tsob posted:Unicorn didn't do anything new in that regard by messing with the timeline. Nor did it redefine the One Year War conflict by making the Federation the aggressors, since all Zinnerman's backstory established was that soldiers stationed in Side 3 after the war were rather callous with the civilians. Which is reflective of a lot of occupying forces post war. Including American forces in Japan, but not even close to exclusively there. The fact they were doesn't justify anything though, and that's the entire point of Banagher beating Zinnerman in the show. This one is debatable depending on how you contextualize Laplace's Box in the greater timeline. The secret of the box being charter representation for spacenoids and the ensuing terrorist bombing to prevent such an act from being implemented can be viewed as the inciting incident for a long history of colonial oppression by the homeland. Not that Zeon would have known that given how Laplace's Box was hidden from everyone save the Vist Foundation and top echelon members of the federal government, but it can be viewed as a retroactive casus belli for spacenoids in general.
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Apr 28, 2022 16:27
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Arc Hammer posted:This one is debatable depending on how you contextualize Laplace's Box in the greater timeline. The secret of the box being charter representation for spacenoids and the ensuing terrorist bombing to prevent such an act from being implemented can be viewed as the inciting incident for a long history of colonial oppression by the homeland. Not that Zeon would have known that given how Laplace's Box was hidden from everyone save the Vist Foundation and top echelon members of the federal government, but it can be viewed as a retroactive casus belli for spacenoids in general. I don't think it can, because all it legislated was that Newtypes be included in the Federation government on some level; not that the Sides be independent, that Spacenoids in general be part of the Federation government etc. In fact, it was probably limited to "make Newtypes part of the government" rather than "allow Spacenoids independence" specifically because that'd give Zeon retroactive cause, given that Mineva has a conversation with the diner owner specifically about how the Sides were originally built with hope around that kind of thing. Which wasn't even really what Zeon were fighting over anyway, since (a) they didn't give two single fucks what happened with the other Sides (hence why they massacred them) and because (b) Side 3 was already autonomous, and had self-governance of pretty much everything, including final say on politics, the economy and the military, and even putting aside that they'd probably have been able to achieve actual independence by purely political and/or economic means within a few decades at most, Gihren all but admits in the show that he just started the war to wipe out large sections of the population.
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Apr 28, 2022 16:34
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Arc Hammer posted:I just can't wrap my head around the Muslim suicide family plot as anything other than a gross stereotype that doesn't really add anything to the story. wait till you read Tomono's notes for Annahiem
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Apr 28, 2022 16:57
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In what world would a japanese nationalist play up the rape of nanking as a source of sympathy for its victims, rather than avoid the subject entirely? I'd also definitely disagree with zeon in unicorn being depicted as being from a noble lost cause or whatever. They're occasionally visually presented in that light because that's how they see themselves and so that's how the direction communicates that to the audience, but for the most part (especially in the writing) they're pretty heavily presented as dumbasses who couldn't let go of their idealistic projections onto a cause that was in reality pretty awful. If they're fighting for a noble lost cause why is the struggle with loni the choice between "try to convince them to give their cause up" and "just murder them before they can do any more damage?" Jury's still out on if just putting down zeon soldiers immediately is the right move! I think the fascists are often presented as having compelling points and charisma because half the point of gundam is exploring why people fall into that crowd. If there wasn't a convincing argument, they'd seem idiotic for doing so and the themes of understanding would fall pretty flat! Really just comes around to the infantile "I could never be a fascist, and neither could any of my friends, because only psychopaths joined the nazi party" view that pretends all conflict is the result of designated bad people kicking puppies. I wonder if any famous real life fascists had convincing arguments tailored to the experiences of their audience and good public speaking skills ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 19:48
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tsob posted:Why is it a warning flag to have a soldier have a backstory that involves death and rape, in and of itself? In this case it's just fatiguing because Fukui leans on it multiple times - it's the back story of four major characters in Unicorn to which I can only think "give it a rest, man"
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Apr 29, 2022 02:07
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was fukui the dude who did weird homophobia stuff in the unicorn novels too?? because i vaguely recall reading about some weird stuff in those books that wasn't in the ovas
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Apr 29, 2022 02:28
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