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For what it's worth, I think that it's okay to allow yourself to admit who you're attracted to without fear of being shallow or petty. I think with queerness, there is this weird all or nothing attitude often pushed by conservatives. We saw it in the 20th century and probably even now, how gay people were treated as sex monsters who wanted to be into EVERYone of the same gender, and not just a select people who happen to be part of the same gender. With trans people though, I think there is a view that when Caitlyn Jenner is on a magazine, that being attracted her to is being demanded of them. And like, I'm not particularly attracted to Caitlyn Jenner--even if she wasn't an rear end in a top hat, and that's fine. But you can call Caitlyn Jenner pretty while also not wanting to have sex with her and definitely without being a huge rear end in a top hat about it. It's also okay to have a genuine aversion to some sexual acts. I think there are also broader issues of how specifically many men interact with women they don't want to have sex with though. EDIT: I edited my OP because I didn't intend to really cheerlead being sapiosexual rather than give an example of something, but I don't think that came off when it's hanging with being ace or bi which are things being more broadly experienced. And I think it's lead to arguments that are interesting, but as mentioned not representative of some of the bigger issues faced by the LTBQIA+ community mostly made up of people who identity as bi or pan. I'll also name, I've only been with one person while coming out as trans, and before that dated women while presenting as a man with some play with boys. And I honestly don't really label my sexuality at all outside of generally knowing that I like feminine people. So, if anyone has amendments they'd like me to make to the OP regarding sexuality, I can definitely add onto it because it was something I was writing from a more clinical viewpoint. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 26, 2022 18:31
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Back when I thought I was cis, I absolutely felt like the genitals of a trans woman was a dealbreaker for a relationship with them. It's really difficult to fully capture the extreme degree of both internalized homophobia and transmisogyny that is rampant in the psychology of dudes, even a dude who is otherwise adamant in his support of trans people. Hell I still haven't expunged the full traces of trans misogyny in my mindset after coming out to myself as enby!
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Apr 26, 2022 21:30
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Yeah, I was thinking about the "well, what if attraction is about sex in addition to/rather than gender?" thing and it comes down to this, for me: if it's about the gender someone was assigned at birth, or their biology or their junk configuration or however you prefer to call it, then would you as a straight man, be more attracted to a trans woman or a trans man assuming neither had undergone surgery? Neither? Okay, both genitals and gender matter to you in terms of sexual attraction. I don't find anything inherently wrong with that. But if you identify as a straight guy or as a lesbian, yet are attracted to a man with a vagina, I would suggest you're not actually straight/lesbian. That's fine, there's no rule saying you have to be 100% consistent about your attraction, but be honest about what it is.
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Apr 27, 2022 01:23
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A big flaming stink posted:Back when I thought I was cis, I absolutely felt like the genitals of a trans woman was a dealbreaker for a relationship with them. It's really difficult to fully capture the extreme degree of both internalized homophobia and transmisogyny that is rampant in the psychology of dudes, even a dude who is otherwise adamant in his support of trans people. It's okay to draw the line at genitals in a sexual relationship. Trans women are women in the context of society, but if you aren't interested in certain types of sex you still aren't. Elliot Page is adorable and I love him to bits, but I don't think of him sexually because my sexuality in the cis-heteronormative world was informed partially by seeing vaginas in porn and how my mind reacted to that. Tim Henson (a cis man) is cute, but I don't like guys with tons of tattoos just as an aesthetic thing. Both of these preferences are about similarly relevant, though I have zero chance with either of them. Just keep in mind a couple things: You can have a totally romantic relationship with someone that is sexually open, just as some married couples sometimes agree to see other people. The only thing that matters is consent to the terms and boundaries. If you really someone for their personality or intelligence or other reasons, you may be able to find a way to be together in a capacity that doesn't leave you having sex that you're honestly uncomfortable with.
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Apr 27, 2022 01:36
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A lot of people, especially those who've never questioned their own self-definitions, have a very hard time drawing a hard line between 'this is what I find attractive' and 'this is how people are allowed to be'.
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Apr 27, 2022 02:36
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Craptacular! posted:Just keep in mind a couple things: You can have a totally romantic relationship with someone that is sexually open, just as some married couples sometimes agree to see other people. The only thing that matters is consent to the terms and boundaries. If you really someone for their personality or intelligence or other reasons, you may be able to find a way to be together in a capacity that doesn't leave you having sex that you're honestly uncomfortable with. Yeah. So, a year ago, if you asked me if I'd date a trans woman? It would have come with a big "maybe" attached to it, because I wasn't sure I could have a compatible sexual relationship for reasons of genitalia. A big self exploration of my sexuality after I came out as trans lead me to the conclusion that, well, I definitely do not like dicks still, but also I don't think I was ever partial for vaginas, either, and it probably explains quite a bit about my past relationships, especially and obviously in light of being trans as well. I do definitely like feminine characteristics, and not masculine ones, so probably it's more accurate to just throw myself somewhere under the asexual spectrum? Either way now I'd be perfectly willing to date a trans woman now, and if anything it would be by preference over a cis woman if just for the initial mutual understanding of gender that such a relationship comes with. It also explained a lot for me about why so many trans people opt to date other trans people over cis people.
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Apr 27, 2022 07:17
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I personally have been attracted to women that do and do not have dicks, and so has my cis lesbian girlfriend. Neither of us like dicks, neither of us want to interact with them regardless of owner. I think I could, but I mostly am incredibly averse to cum, whereas my girlfriend doesn't want to see one at all. I'd personally rather get with the gentials I actually really do like even if I could in theory do something with a penis. Before I got a vagina I didn't take my pants off during sex, I got my enjoyment from it in other ways, and that was fine for both of us. I always find it ridiculous when people go on and on about genital preferences, because of how my girlfriend and I handled it. It was so easy, it was so never a problem. I'm not even the first person my girlfriends dated that still had a dick when she met them.
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Apr 27, 2022 09:18
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I think that we also need to not talk about sex in such clinical terms. The reality for most people is that we're all not actually hooking up with as many partners as TV would like it to make it seem, not queer people, but just people in general. Most people are only having sex with a handful of people, and have probably just made out with many more people. I once again don't think people having an issue with hooking up with certain genitals is an issue, but I've also played with dudes when I was younger without that ever really coming into play. And that is all to say, it's fine to not want to mess with specific junk, but when someone has a very strong reaction or dismisses the attractiveness of someone altogether because of their junk, I think you have to start questioning is this preference or internalized trans/homophobia/misogyny. I think part of the problem with the dominant heteronormative narrative is that it forces people to find some goldilocks zone of the right amount of sex. You can't have TOO much sex or you're a slut, but you can't also not want to have sex or very rarely have sex or because then you're a weirdo. It's a game with no winning. And I think there are probably loads of people pressured into sex they don't like to just be normal. I think when it comes to trans people and the preference of genitals, we have to sort of demystify things and thing in terms of shared experience. From my experience, there are gay dudes who don't like anal. There are cis people who find oral to be gross. There are people uncomfortable with big penises or unfulfilled by small penises. I think there are more people than we know who enjoy making out a lot more than actual penetrative sex. And that's all fine and that's all normal. Yeah, it sucks to be dumped because you're uncircumcised or to feel like a shallow jerk to break up with someone who doesn't like something important to you in bed, but it is what it is. As trans people though, I think that there is a general consensus amongst a lot of folks that we need to telegraph our genitals to people even if we're not at the par where anyone's underpants are coming off. What happens in the bedroom is always a tricky game if you're going to click, but for trans folks, if our junk or past junk doesn't past muster, for a lot of people, it's like we're tricking them. So, yeah, its fine for cis dudes to not wanna bang me--right back at ya--but I think it's worth checking where that comes from, and the magnitude of the rejection matters. And I think it's worth considering the pressure that is put upon trans folks.
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Apr 27, 2022 16:25
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[Double Post]
Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 16:25
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So I feel like this is probably a better place to ask than the right wing media thread, though I'll try and keep these kinds of questions to a minimum (I just think people here may be more knowledgeable). Some right wing radio show was talking about how some European country (I don't remember which one. Sweden maybe?) was very accomodating to trans people and supportive of their gender identity, and said that research showed that suicide rates for trans people was actually higher there than it was elsewhere. It's a right wing guy, so this is obviously either outright bullshit, the country wasn't as accomodating as he claims, or he's twisting some facts, but I'm not sure what. I know that this is very little information to go on, but does anyone know what research this guy was referring to and how it's bullshit?
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Apr 27, 2022 16:58
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Twelve by Pies posted:So I feel like this is probably a better place to ask than the right wing media thread, though I'll try and keep these kinds of questions to a minimum (I just think people here may be more knowledgeable). It's referencing this Heritage paper. Here's an interview with one of the authors of the study that the paper uses to make that argument. This study does not show that SRS does not work. It says it very much does. The study does not claim that trans people are worse off after surgery or that they show no improvement. It's being misinterpreted. It says that medical transitions do work, but that society is still incredibly cruel to transgender patients and we are not doing enough to prevent that harm. That's why the discussions of this by transphobes always make sure to make a vague claim about how supportive Sweden is. They're lying and the study literally says they are. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 18:03
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Obviously the source is problematic, but to add two cents: --Unless you are very, very wealthy, there are legitimately limits to what hormone therapy and even bottom surgery can do if you've already gone through puberty. Something the paper doesn't really tend with. Getting access to hormone therapy as early as possible is a huge difference from transitioning well into adulthood. I'm a generally feminine person in a lot of ways--soft features, high voice, full head of hair, shorter, not overly muscular--but my hair and clothes have to do a lot of the work of communicating I'm not a dude. Even if you get top surgery to gain breasts, the typically wider male chest will tend to make the breasts appear a bit different than someone who didn't go through male puberty. Observing that trans adults who get surgery or go through therapy still feel lovely is definitely not a slam dunk on... I don't actually know the point the author is trying to make besides vaguely making GBS threads on trans people. --There is absolutely evidence that living in a more nurturing and affirming environment helps, but it's not a silver bullet. Being trans just genuinely is a kind of traumatizing experience. Here is another paper that lists various interventions from studies across the US, Europe, and primarily Canada.
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Apr 27, 2022 18:17
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The argument by transphobes is that since the study shows that transitioned trans people have higher suicide rates than the general population, people shouldn't "become trans." Or, rather, that's if you press them on it. They start by just lying about what the study says.
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Apr 27, 2022 20:16
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Dr. Stab posted:The argument by transphobes is that since the study shows that transitioned trans people have higher suicide rates than the general population, people shouldn't "become trans." I'm sure people who undergo heart surgery have higher rates of mortality than people who have no heart complaints too.
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Apr 27, 2022 21:19
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Dr. Stab posted:The argument by transphobes is that since the study shows that transitioned trans people have higher suicide rates than the general population, people shouldn't "become trans." It's part of several other arguments as well, but it comes down to: Our bigotry is proven science Here's the one study No I have not read the study I'm just a bigot
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Apr 27, 2022 21:29
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Dr. Stab posted:The argument by transphobes is that since the study shows that transitioned trans people have higher suicide rates than the general population, people shouldn't "become trans." Yeah, a former coworker who was a huge transphobe at the time (this was almost 8 years ago, so idk how he is now) took a study I showed him that talked about how the higher suicide rates for trans people were due to a lack of support from their friends/family/community, and started telling people that transitioning led to higher suicide rates. He knew what he was doing
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Apr 27, 2022 22:27
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Jaxyon posted:It's referencing this Heritage paper. Looking at the blog post thing, it looks like a key error is that the version that user Twelve by Pies heard was that Swedish trans people commit suicide at a higher rate than trans people elsewhere. The study shows that Swedish trans people are more likely to commit suicide than Swedish cis people, for the reasons posters have discussed. There's no comparison to suicidality elsewhere. Does anyone know, is such data available? Like, country-by-country or state-by-state data on mental health/suicidality of trans people?
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Apr 27, 2022 22:40
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smug n stuff posted:Looking at the blog post thing, it looks like a key error is that the version that user Twelve by Pies heard was that Swedish trans people commit suicide at a higher rate than trans people elsewhere. The study shows that Swedish trans people are more likely to commit suicide than Swedish cis people, for the reasons posters have discussed. There's no comparison to suicidality elsewhere. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/ As an aside, is anyone uncomfortable with talking about this subject or how we are handling? I just want to check in because it could possibly be triggering to folks.
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Apr 27, 2022 22:49
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What's weird is that there are studies that show mixed results for srs outcomes (that are smaller or methodologically flawed). But for some reason they keep using this study that shows clear benefit.
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Apr 28, 2022 00:31
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Dr. Stab posted:What's weird is that there are studies that show mixed results for srs outcomes (that are smaller or methodologically flawed). But for some reason they keep using this study that shows clear benefit. Again they don't actually read the studies they just need something to link to to pretend their bigotry has scientific basis. They don't care about the science, and if you try to talk science with them they will declare the 'debate' over.
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Apr 28, 2022 00:40
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smug n stuff posted:
We all know about that 41% study yeah? Its worth pointing out that because of the state of things its well and truly beyond the line of impossible to know how suicidal trans people are Given that 41% stat for example, its a study of trans people who are willing to say they are trans. More importantly it's a study of the living ie those that failed or havent attempted. Its impossible to know how many dead trans people there are. I don't think its a debate that our stats on trans suicide estimate low, I think its a debate of how grossly wrong the data is, and I think its worth pointing out.
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Apr 28, 2022 01:36
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smug n stuff posted:Looking at the blog post thing, it looks like a key error is that the version that user Twelve by Pies heard was that Swedish trans people commit suicide at a higher rate than trans people elsewhere. The study shows that Swedish trans people are more likely to commit suicide than Swedish cis people, for the reasons posters have discussed. There's no comparison to suicidality elsewhere. You might have a country where things are so restrictive that trans people kill themselves without ever coming out, so they wouldn't count towards the statistics.
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Apr 28, 2022 01:50
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It also depends on how you're counting transgender people. Most of the research done has been on women who transitioned. Men who transitioned and nonbinary people who identify as trans seem rarely considered.
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Apr 28, 2022 01:57
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I appreciate the responses, and it makes sense that the number of confounding factors would make this difficult to study rigorously. I did a little looking (halfassedly searched on Google Scholar) and found this review which a found interesting—basically brings together and summarizes all the studies they could find on self harm and suicidality in trans people, along with a good analysis of the methods of each study. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3109/09540261.2015.1073143
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Apr 28, 2022 02:04
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Timeless Appeal posted:Honestly, I feel like it's incredibly hard to be comparative with the data because we genuinely don't know how many trans people there are. 0.5% of the population seems like a likely upper limit from what I've seen and we are definitely a much smaller part of the overall LGBTQIA+ bucket, but queer people in general used to be assumed to be in 1 in 50 and now it's closer to 1 in 5. The Canadian Census recently included an option for ticking trans or non-binary gender options, and apparently the make up with that is about 1 in 300 people is trans and/or non-binary. I haven't seen a good break down of the information as a comparison to population by province or total population or urban vs rural areas etc, but I imagine people will be using those numbers for a good deal of studies now.
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Apr 28, 2022 05:26
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Minera posted:The Canadian Census recently included an option for ticking trans or non-binary gender options, and apparently the make up with that is about 1 in 300 people is trans and/or non-binary. I haven't seen a good break down of the information as a comparison to population by province or total population or urban vs rural areas etc, but I imagine people will be using those numbers for a good deal of studies now. I read up a bit about the Canadian census apparently some people were unhappy with the phrasing of the questions. Outside of journalists seeking headlines, how did the community feel about it? New Zealand has included new questions for our next census in 2023. Specifically asking for gender with male, female and other (space to define), followed by a separate question as to whether you identify as transgender. And because it might be of interest to the thread, the definition is given as: quote:"Transgender is an umbrella term that refers to people whose gender is different to the sex they were assigned at birth. Other identities considered to fall under this umbrella can include non-binary, transsexual, takatāpui, fa’afafine, genderqueer - and many more." I think lumping different gender identities as transgender is a pretty strong indication that cultural or community consultation was either not sought or not listened to.
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Apr 28, 2022 12:31
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Minera posted:The Canadian Census recently included an option for ticking trans or non-binary gender options, and apparently the make up with that is about 1 in 300 people is trans and/or non-binary. I haven't seen a good break down of the information as a comparison to population by province or total population or urban vs rural areas etc, but I imagine people will be using those numbers for a good deal of studies now. -Being assigned male -Being religious -Being politically conservative -Being older The total queer population in the US is 5% but closer to 20% among younger generations.
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Apr 28, 2022 12:44
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Minera posted:The Canadian Census recently included an option for ticking trans or non-binary gender options, and apparently the make up with that is about 1 in 300 people is trans and/or non-binary. I haven't seen a good break down of the information as a comparison to population by province or total population or urban vs rural areas etc, but I imagine people will be using those numbers for a good deal of studies now. There is province-by-province data here: https://twitter.com/katymontgomerie/status/1519320006227640323?s=21&t=sbOpbmmf1t74ldVzrVQatA e: just based on my stereotypes about Canadian provinces I don’t see much correlation between political tendency and trans population, but I know nothing about Canada
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Apr 28, 2022 12:51
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Timeless Appeal posted:As I brought up earlier though, there predictable variables that make someone less likely to identify as queer: Remember too that's warped by both the social pressure not to talk about it, and the 324,029 men and women who died of AIDS in the decade between 1987 and 1998. Roughly 10% of all out gay men among the Boomers died in those ten years.
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Apr 28, 2022 13:17
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Liquid Communism posted:Remember too that's warped by both the social pressure not to talk about it, and the 324,029 men and women who died of AIDS in the decade between 1987 and 1998. Roughly 10% of all out gay men among the Boomers died in those ten years. not even social pressure, i would have never in a million years realized i wasn't cis without my close friendships with trans folk online.
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Apr 28, 2022 21:07
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fwiw Timeless Appeal has graciously agreed to IK the thread. Having her input and perspective as well as another set of eyes watching things should help head off anyone rolling in here with bad faith or bigoted stuff.
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Apr 28, 2022 21:28
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A big flaming stink posted:not even social pressure, i would have never in a million years realized i wasn't cis without my close friendships with trans folk online.  person they came out to, even! They're a demi girl, which I'm sure we could have an entirely unproductive pages-long derail discussing the validity and definition of, and they just got bottom surgery and I'm so proud of them (they promised to share the cheat codes with me). They would have been the first person I came out to if they hadn't moved out to Oregon.But I had always flirted with it. A random NYT magazine article about the murder of Calpurnia Adams' boyfriend, a fascination with a Kim Petras, wanting my grandmother to paint my nails, always feeling awkward and out of place hanging out with a group of dudes, etc. etc. (I always preferred mixed groups or one-on-ones). But I have been helped considerably by following some awesome trans ladies online. In terms of things actual news-worthy stuff happening: https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/04/conservatives-declare-war-lgbtq-suicide-prevention-hotline-call-pedophilia/ The conservative Twittersphere, including Quilette and Moms for Liberty, are very hot and bothered over the Trevor Project, which among other things runs a LGBTQ+ suicide hotline, for helping kids hide from parental controls and monitoring. quote:Conservatives have spent the last couple months calling everyone who disagrees with them a pedophile, and now they’re setting their sights on the Trevor Project, an organization that runs a hotline and other resources to fight LGBTQ youth suicide. But gee, I wonder why LGBTQ+ kids would want to hide that from people like this? It must be because they're being groomed! 
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Apr 28, 2022 21:55
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Lance of Llanwyln posted:It certainly helped me that one of my best friends is trans. I was the first "cis" I hate to be That Girl, but they don't just want us to kill ourselves, they want to kill us themselves: https://twitter.com/GBBranstetter/status/1519395789910462466 There's a reason people in the community, allies and scholars on extremism are all in a united choir screaming from the rooftops "we're barrelling towards genocide"...
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Apr 28, 2022 22:03
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This is gonna sound kind of like I never developed empathy, but a certain number of teenagers die every year, and some of them are queer. Proportionally how many of them are queer, I haven’t seen any details to see how it aligns with the general population. Dead minors is one of those things that really emotionally charges people and that can be used to draw weird reactions. Idiots where I live trying to force their kids to school said that teen suicides regionally had spiked dramatically in 2020, because kids were despondent that they weren’t going to see their friends again. The difference between 2019 and 2020 was dramatic, but 2019 was an extremely low outlier number for how many teen suicides happens in a typical year in a region with over two million people; and 2020 was similar to 2018 and prior. It’s one of those “one is too many” events that inevitably happen when you’re talking about millions of people. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 22:48
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Craptacular! posted:This is gonna sound kind of like I never developed empathy, but a certain number of teenagers die every year, and some of them are queer. Proportionally how many of them are queer, I haven’t seen any details to see how it aligns with the general population. About 30 seconds of googling on the search term "queer children disproportionately suicide" quote:Sexual minority adolescents were substantially more likely to report suicide risk behaviors. quote:After adjusting for potential confounders, sexual minority adolescents were significantly more likely to consider, plan, or attempt suicide (risk ratio [RR]: 2.45 [95% CI, 2.12-2.81] for considering, 2.59 [95% CI, 2.18-3.04] for planning, and 3.37 [95% CI, 2.73-4.09] for attempting) than heterosexuals.
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Apr 28, 2022 22:56
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Craptacular! posted:This is gonna sound kind of like I never developed empathy, but a certain number of teenagers die every year, and some of them are queer. Proportionally how many of them are queer, I haven’t seen any details to see how it aligns with the general population. If you are not informed about a specific fact then please ask or do some quick research rather than make an assumption or extrapolate from a place of lack of knowledge. Please don’t make this mistake again and feel free to PM before positing is you’re unsure how something might come out. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 23:59
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Craptacular! posted:This is gonna sound kind of like I never developed empathy, but a certain number of teenagers die every year, and some of them are queer. Proportionally how many of them are queer, I haven’t seen any details to see how it aligns with the general population. If you don't know, why are you then immediately trying to minimalize it? I want to think you're in good faith, but that sort of response is exactly the rhetoric that immediately puts up my hackles and says 'this person is a bad actor pretending to be civil'. Please stop and ask yourself why that is your first reaction.
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Apr 29, 2022 07:38
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Also didn't you say you got poo poo as a teenager specifically for that? It is extremely bizzare to me to undergo that and not have your first thought upon hearing it's a worldwide problem for queer kids being "oh poo poo that happened to me and it loving sucked"
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Apr 29, 2022 09:11
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smug n stuff posted:There is province-by-province data here: They even have a breakdown of the major cities. I was really surprised that Toronto was as low as it was, as it's usually the first place queer people up here in the North say they're going to go to escape their redneck hometowns.
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Apr 29, 2022 15:28
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Big cities are probably better havens. You have a larger community in an absolute sense, but what makes something top the list for proportion, it seems, is being a smaller city in a more rural area. Eg, Newfoundland is very rural, with St John's being the major city (and also the only place in the province one can consistently get gender affirming care), so there's a huge trans population that has fled to the city. Then Halifax is like that, except it also draws people from surrounding provinces, which also would explain why Nova Scotia has such a large proportion of trans people. Dr. Stab fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 15:53
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