US CE Spring 2022: I'm convinced it's useless which is why I argue about it all day every day

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US CE Spring 2022: I'm convinced it's useless which is why I argue about it all day every day

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Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Dick Trauma posted:

My Kools!

# ? May 1, 2022 02:47

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# ? May 24, 2024 23:52

Epic High Five: Jun 5, 2004

First they took my mango flavored Juuls, then they took my everything else re: nicotine vaping, now this. Outrageous! What further hoops must I jump through to merely suppress my appetite with this horrible and unpleasant drug now? I refuse to return to the ECA stack

# ? May 1, 2022 02:59

rscott: Dec 10, 2009

Epic High Five posted:

First they took my mango flavored Juuls, then they took my everything else re: nicotine vaping, now this. Outrageous! What further hoops must I jump through to merely suppress my appetite with this horrible and unpleasant drug now? I refuse to return to the ECA stack

Actually it's first they banned my clove cigarettes

(IDK if anyone else went through a phase where they smoked Djarum Blacks)

# ? May 1, 2022 03:26

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

haveblue posted:

Can you elaborate on how this is different from the previous definition and why that�s significant?

To follow up, this is a complete realignment of the definitions involved. Here's the new firearm definition:

quote:

Firearm.
Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics. The term shall include a weapon parts kit that is designed to or may readily be completed, assembled, restored, or otherwise converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. The term shall not include a weapon, including a weapon parts kit, in which the frame or receiver of such weapon is destroyed as described in the definition �frame or receiver�.

Compare the old:

quote:

Firearm.
Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.

Firearm frame or receiver.
That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.

My extremely limited knowledge is that this change covers a bunch of guns that were specifically designed to not fall under the firearm definition, or related "kits" that would fulfill the same purpose. I may need to ask in TFR to learn more.

edit: here's the crux of the rationale for the rulemaking (again, out of a 98 page document, lots of nuance not covered here:

quote:

There are no statutory definitions for the terms �frame� or �receiver� in the Gun Control Act of 1968 (�GCA�) or the National Firearms Act of 1934 (�NFA�). To implement these statutes, the terms �firearm frame or receiver� and �frame or receiver� were defined in regulations to mean �[t]hat part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.� 27 CFR 478.11 (implementing GCA, Title I); 27 CFR 479.11 [1] (implementing GCA, Title II).

These definitions were meant to provide direction as to which portion of a weapon is the frame or receiver for purposes of licensing, serialization, and recordkeeping, thereby ensuring that a component necessary for the functioning of the weapon could be traced if later involved in a crime. However, a restrictive application of these definitions would not describe the frame or receiver of most firearms currently in circulation in the United States. Most modern weapon designs, including semiautomatic rifles and pistols with detachable magazines, have a split or multi-piece receiver where the relevant fire control components are housed by more than one part of the weapon (e.g., the upper receiver and lower receiver of an AR-15 rifle), or incorporate a striker to fire the weapon, rather than a hammer.

In the past few years, some courts have treated the regulatory definition of �firearm frame or receiver� as inflexible when applied to the lower portion of the AR-15-type rifle, one of the most popular firearms in the United States. If broadly followed, that result could mean that as many as 90 percent of all firearms (i.e.,with split frames or receivers, or striker-fired) in the United States would not have any frame or receiver subject to regulation. Furthermore, technological advances have also made it easier for companies to sell firearm parts kits, standalone frame or receiver parts, and easy-to-complete frames or receivers to unlicensed persons, without maintaining any records or conducting a background check. These parts kits, standalone frame or receiver parts, or partially complete frames or receivers enable individuals to make firearms quickly and easily. Such privately made firearms (�PMFs�), when made for personal use, are not required by the GCA to have a serial number placed on the frame or receiver, making it difficult for law enforcement to determine where, by whom, or when they were manufactured, and to whom they were sold or otherwise transferred. Because of the difficulty with tracing illegally sold or distributed PMFs, those firearms are also commonly referred to as �ghost guns.�

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 03:47 on May 1, 2022

# ? May 1, 2022 03:39

Fuschia tude: Dec 26, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

Discendo Vox posted:

To follow up, this is a complete realignment of the definitions involved. Here's the new firearm definition:

Compare the old:

My extremely limited knowledge is that this change covers a bunch of guns that were specifically designed to not fall under the firearm definition, or related "kits" that would fulfill the same purpose. I may need to ask in TFR to learn more.

edit: here's the crux of the rationale for the rulemaking (again, out of a 98 page document, lots of nuance not covered here:

Related, here's DOJ's explanation for the terminology change from a couple of weeks ago. Looks like it was absolutely intended to grandfather under the umbrella of "firearms" a whole bunch of home kit-assembled firearms that were evading registration and had no serial numbers due to this loophole.

# ? May 1, 2022 03:55

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Not going to ask about this in TFR, the dedicated containment thread for gun control there was shut down by a mod for being an absolute shitshow in December.

# ? May 1, 2022 03:58

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Solkanar512 posted:

So back to members of congress and stocks. Yeah, obviously a spouse shouldn't be allowed to trade because they're basically a legal unit. But what happens if that spouse get tired of it, starts a separation and just goes wild trading securities? The member of congress can't forcibly stop that from happening?

Then they don't get to be in congress anymore, I don't see the problem.

# ? May 1, 2022 04:00

Bishyaler: Dec 30, 2009; Megamarm

I would be interested to see statistics on ghost guns to see their involvement in crime, or if this is a solution in search of a problem.

# ? May 1, 2022 06:19

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Fuschia tude literally just linked a report covering seizures by law enforcement over the past 6 years.

# ? May 1, 2022 09:05

PeterCat: Apr 8, 2020; Believe women.

Bishyaler posted:

I would be interested to see statistics on ghost guns to see their involvement in crime, or if this is a solution in search of a problem.

"As the final rule explains, from January 2016 to December 2021, ATF received approximately 45,240 reports of suspected privately made firearms recovered by law enforcement, including in 692 homicide or attempted homicide investigations. The chart below demonstrates the total annual numbers of suspected PMFs recovered by law enforcement over the past six years:"

Note this doesn't say that the firearms were actually produced in private, just that it is suspected that they are, and of those 692 were used in homicide or attempted homicides covering that 7 year period.

Here are the number of murders in the US by year and number of firearm deaths in 2020. 692 over 7 years from the tens of thousands of firearms murders committed in the US over that period seems like a drop in the bucket.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191134/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-cases-in-the-us-since-1990/

# ? May 1, 2022 09:39

Bishyaler: Dec 30, 2009; Megamarm

Edit: A comparison like this shows the pointlessness of going after ghost guns. ^^^^^

Discendo Vox posted:

Fuschia tude literally just linked a report covering seizures by law enforcement over the past 6 years.

That's one chart of seizures of suspected PMFs by year. It means nothing without context of whether they were used in a crime, and against crimes committed with legally purchased firearms. If there were 100 murders with legal firearms and 2 murders with "ghost guns", then a bunch of time and effort is being wasted on ghost guns.

Bishyaler fucked around with this message at 13:55 on May 1, 2022

# ? May 1, 2022 13:52

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Bishyaler posted:

Edit: A comparison like this shows the pointlessness of going after ghost guns. ^^^^^

That's one chart of seizures of suspected PMFs by year. It means nothing without context of whether they were used in a crime, and against crimes committed with legally purchased firearms. If there were 100 murders with legal firearms and 2 murders with "ghost guns", then a bunch of time and effort is being wasted on ghost guns.

You�re right, lets go after all guns.

Also, since you didn�t feel like doing a quick Google search, I�ll do it for you. Here�s an article talking about them including recovery rate by the police: https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/05/us/us-ghost-gun-problem/index.html

# ? May 1, 2022 14:11

Bishyaler: Dec 30, 2009; Megamarm

Kalit posted:

You�re right, lets go after all guns.

All guns? Is your goal to have a record breaking midterm loss? Law abiding citizens aren't going to respond well to having their property seized.

# ? May 1, 2022 15:02

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

It's just an easy moral high horse unachievable. We should be hanging onto our guns because as climate change effects and the general imperial decay get worse we're more likely to need to defend our minority neighbors.

# ? May 1, 2022 15:04

haveblue: Aug 15, 2005; Toilet Rascal

Yes, "defend"

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? May 1, 2022 15:05

BRAKE FOR MOOSE: Jun 6, 2001

I'm a gun liker but it will never stop being funny how gun control is the one place where we regularly get the "that's impossible!" inversion from people who want M4A, meaningful action on climate change, and housing as a human right. I mean, yeah, there are more guns than people, but it's not like anything else we talk about is realistic.

# ? May 1, 2022 15:08

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

haveblue posted:

Yes, "defend"

What are you suggesting?

# ? May 1, 2022 15:10

Bishyaler: Dec 30, 2009; Megamarm

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

I'm a gun liker but it will never stop being funny how gun control is the one place where we regularly get the "that's impossible!" inversion from people who want M4A, meaningful action on climate change, and housing as a human right. I mean, yeah, there are more guns than people, but it's not like anything else we talk about is realistic.

I'm generally not in favor of anything that would disempower the working class, regardless of how possible it would be. As far as M4A, action on climate change, and housing go: If we want to learn a lesson from FDR, progressive policy is gained from threats to the ruling class, not popular support.

# ? May 1, 2022 15:18

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

Harold you can't even deal with a mod giving you a sixer without crying. You're going to be roasting on a spit within five minutes of the apocalypse.

# ? May 1, 2022 15:20

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Mellow Seas posted:

Harold you can't even deal with a mod giving you a sixer without crying. You're going to be roasting on a spit within five minutes of the apocalypse.

Please keep the way you fantasize about your posting enemies dying to yourself, op.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? May 1, 2022 15:24

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

Listen, if you're picturing a total collapse of society where you do well because of your cool Leftist Guns and you scare aware all the fascists and their liberal allies attacking your poor, defenseless minority neighbors, thanks to you and loaded and righteous Marxist firearms, then you're a loving child and you you need to get the gently caress out of the politics forums, because pebble-dicked power fantasies are only "politics" on the right wing.

# ? May 1, 2022 15:26

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

"if you try to prepare for bad things, that proves you're a child"

Jesus you are a parody of yourself.

I know "libs believe bad things will never happen again because history is over" is a meme, but I never knew how deeply true it was.

Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 16:03 on May 1, 2022

# ? May 1, 2022 15:27

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

Harold Fjord posted:

"if you try to prepare for bad things, that proves you're a child"

Jesus you are a parody of yourself.

"preparing for bad things" - fighting gun control

Because who cares about all those dead kids anyway, DON'T THEY KNOW THERE'S AN APOCAlYPSE HAPPENING

...y-y-know, PROBABLY?

# ? May 1, 2022 15:29

Heck Yes! Loam!: Nov 15, 2004; a rich, friable soil containing a relatively equal mixture of sand and silt and a somewhat smaller proportion of clay.

Anyone preparing for the apocalypse is a loving moron

# ? May 1, 2022 15:29

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

The contradiction between how you treat gun control and how you treat every social good suggested by the left that the right opposes.

:thunk:

It's good how you constantly mask off tho. That I do appreciate. When the fascists come, you'll sit quiet and wait your turn.

Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 15:35 on May 1, 2022

# ? May 1, 2022 15:31

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

If you guys want to twit about back-patting yourselves not voting for Democrats because it makes you feel good, fine, but once you start advocating for flooding the streets with guns, to lay a groundwork where maybe it�ll only take the 100 million armed brownshirts 5 days to win the civil war instead of two days then cool, then I am no longer humoring your nonsense. Have fun being as loving stupid as a right winger. At least they have the excuse of growing up in a cultural context where being a loving dumbass was positively reinforced by their poo poo communities, I don't know what the gently caress is wrong with you.

Less guns, please

Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 15:38 on May 1, 2022

# ? May 1, 2022 15:36

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Mellow Seas posted:

advocating for flooding the streets with guns

Found the poo poo you made up.

Your own politicians enable the MIC. The ones you think are looking out for your best interest. The guns are already there. I'm merely trying to cope with the consequences of your failed ideology.

# ? May 1, 2022 15:37

Heck Yes! Loam!: Nov 15, 2004; a rich, friable soil containing a relatively equal mixture of sand and silt and a somewhat smaller proportion of clay.

Yeah mellow seas why did your ideology fail society?! Answer for your crimes.

Jesus Christ get a grip

# ? May 1, 2022 15:38

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

Answer for your crimes.

Found the part you made up.

Mass extinction continues apace, but your ideology is doing just fine. Sure. Tell yourself.

# ? May 1, 2022 15:39

RBA Starblade: Apr 28, 2008; Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

e: Oh, this isn't the shitposting thread

RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 15:41 on May 1, 2022

# ? May 1, 2022 15:39

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

Harold Fjord posted:

Found the poo poo you made up.

Your own politicians enable the MIC. The ones you think are looking out for your best interest. The guns are already there. I'm merely trying to cope with the consequences of your failed ideology.

I hope some day I can try to cope with the consequences of your ideology, but first it would have to have any consequences.

# ? May 1, 2022 15:40

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Mellow Seas posted:

I hope some day I can try to cope with the consequences of your ideology, but first it would have to have any consequences.

Shame your boys murdered Malcolm and Martin and Fred and thousands across the global south, eh? But sick burn.

The libs are very touchy this morning. Are you genuinely angry because you genuinely think gun control is a great moral good and my rhetorical opposition here is material, or are you just generally angry?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 15:46 on May 1, 2022

# ? May 1, 2022 15:43

Mellow Seas: Oct 9, 2012; Can't post for 10 years!

Harold Fjord posted:

Shame your boys murdered malcom and martin and fred and thousands across the global south, eh? But sick burn.

"my boys" lmao

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? May 1, 2022 15:44

Heck Yes! Loam!: Nov 15, 2004; a rich, friable soil containing a relatively equal mixture of sand and silt and a somewhat smaller proportion of clay.

Having been raised in right wing gun culture, the idea of left wing gun culture is not appealing either.

Guns are fun, but god drat that fun isn't worth the cost of completely unregulated ownership. There's argument to be made about the current regulations, but I doubt being armed is the deterrent to violence that many see it as.

Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 15:53 on May 1, 2022

# ? May 1, 2022 15:47

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

How do you think we will end capitalism without a leftwing gun culture . If we are going to incite the communist revolution then you'll need some garrisons to muster at.

# ? May 1, 2022 16:04

BRJurgis: Aug 15, 2007; Well I hear the thunder roll, I feel the cold winds blowing...
But you won't find me there, 'cause I won't go back again...
While you're on smoky roads, I'll be out in the sun...
Where the trees still grow, where they count by one...

Climate justice, m4a, nationwide gun control measures: each impossible in its own way. But m4a would help people immediately, while gun culture and proliferation means even immediate action would take quite some time to make a difference. Climate is a topic with such high stakes nothing diminishes our need for immediate intervention.

At this point it's just hard to see gun control initiatives as anything but performative political maneuvers that continue to feed the culture war and hopelessly divide us.

# ? May 1, 2022 16:05

Heck Yes! Loam!: Nov 15, 2004; a rich, friable soil containing a relatively equal mixture of sand and silt and a somewhat smaller proportion of clay.

BRJurgis posted:

Climate justice, m4a, nationwide gun control measures: each impossible in its own way. But m4a would help people immediately, while gun culture and proliferation means even immediate action would take quite some time to make a difference. Climate is a topic with such high stakes nothing diminishes our need for immediate intervention.

At this point it's just hard to see gun control initiatives as anything but performative political maneuvers that continue to feed the culture war and hopelessly divide us.

I for sure think prioritizing gun control over health care of climate change is negligent and pointless.

It's possible to regulate guns without engaging in culture war bullshit as well. Many current regulations are performative nonsense.

Also hunting can be fun when done outside of right wing gun culture circles.

# ? May 1, 2022 16:08

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

The regulation responding to gun conversion kits and entire commercial products that were specifically intended to escape existing regulations. It's at least attempting to close a gap in regulation being exploited by criminals and a subset of regulated industry; it's very strange that the response would be "regulation doesn't matter" or...whatever this argument against gun control is.

It is also a very strange argument that regulations are somehow coming from a commutative pool of energy. BATFE can't reform healthcare.

# ? May 1, 2022 16:36

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Discendo Vox posted:

The regulation responding to gun conversion kits and entire commercial products that were specifically intended to escape existing regulations. It's at least attempting to close a gap in regulation being exploited by criminals and a subset of regulated industry; it's very strange that the response would be "regulation doesn't matter" or...whatever this argument against gun control is.

It is also a very strange argument that regulations are somehow coming from a commutative pool of energy. BATFE can't reform healthcare.

You'll find that a bad faith troll very quickly changed the subject as an excuse to attack a leftist poster, hence the changed subject from the particulars of the story in the ongoing discussion. This (bad faith subject changes, in any direction) happens often and I understand how it can be frustrating.

# ? May 1, 2022 16:43

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# ? May 24, 2024 23:52

BRJurgis: Aug 15, 2007; Well I hear the thunder roll, I feel the cold winds blowing...
But you won't find me there, 'cause I won't go back again...
While you're on smoky roads, I'll be out in the sun...
Where the trees still grow, where they count by one...

Discendo Vox posted:

The regulation responding to gun conversion kits and entire commercial products that were specifically intended to escape existing regulations. It's at least attempting to close a gap in regulation being exploited by criminals and a subset of regulated industry; it's very strange that the response would be "regulation doesn't matter" or...whatever this argument against gun control is.

It is also a very strange argument that regulations are somehow coming from a commutative pool of energy. BATFE can't reform healthcare.

The discussion shifted a bit away from those specific policies. I wouldn't give a drat if all the guns dissapeared, and I'd welcome reasonable nationwide standards. I just hate that every time it comes up in our national "dialogue" it only enriches the very people making guns, peddling propaganda, and buying our leaders. Then we give a bunch of money to police.

I suppose I'm guilty of diluting the conversation into a more ambiguous big picture condemnation of our world at large, but I like to think my perspective can mitigate the constant divide in this very thread at least.

# ? May 1, 2022 16:46

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US CE Spring 2022: I'm convinced it's useless which is why I argue about it all day every day

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