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May 1, 2022 01:33
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therobit posted:I’d argue that this conflict as well as the one with Georgia inherently involves NATO in a way that the conflict in Yemen doesn’t. And the Isreal-Palestine issue is just completely different. I don't think you understood the sentiment of my post. I am not calling NATO to intervene in anything as I stated "NATO countries" and not NATO. My main problem is that people see scream in horror when they see Ukrainians getting bombed by Russians, but when Syrians got bombed by Russians they are loving silent. When we see Israelites gather couches to see Palestine getting bombed they are loving silent. When the loving Saudis bomb civilians in Yemen we also loving stay silent. I am loving glad Ukraine is getting material support and are stomping Russians, but the silence about other similar conflicts is deafening.
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May 1, 2022 01:38
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ElMaligno posted:I don't think you understood the sentiment of my post. 1. gently caress the house of Saud. 2. I would like to support the Yemeni people. 3. Under no circumstances do I want to support the current Yemeni government. I don't have reservation #3 w/r/t Ukraine. Cutting all aid and support to Saudi Arabia is a viable option for me, but giving military aid to Yemen is not.
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May 1, 2022 01:43
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ElMaligno posted:I don't think you understood the sentiment of my post. People were absolutely loving livid about the russian intervention in syria, both here and in the broader world. Hell, most of the people that were reporting on Syria are now reporting on Ukraine, it's basically the same playbook being used, there's just infinitely more that can be done to support A Country versus what can be done to support disparate rebel groups against the wishes of the country they existed in. Particularly when you have to vet literally every single group to make sure that they're only tactically coordinating with various flavors of islamic fundamentalists a little bit. On the forums the 'gives a poo poo about Syria' and 'gives a poo poo about Ukraine' are basically a circular venn diagram. The people who didn't have anything negative to say about the Russian intervention in Syria are largely the same people with nothing negative to say about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Tbh I don't think almost anyone anywhere on the forums (or much of the wider world, for that matter, seriously KSA is incredibly unpopular) has a good thing to say about KSA or supports what they're doing in Yemen. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:51 on May 1, 2022 |
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May 1, 2022 01:44
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Herstory Begins Now posted:People were absolutely loving livid about the russian intervention in syria, both here and in the broader world. Hell, most of the people that were reporting on Syria are now reporting on Ukraine, it's basically the same thing, there's just infinitely more that can be done to support A Country versus what can be done to support disparate rebel groups against the wishes of the country they existed in. Particularly when you have to vet literally every single group to make sure that they're only tactically coordinating with various flavors of islamic fundamentalists. Syria is also really different in that Russia (and others) intervened in a civil war. Just straight up invading a peaceful neighbor makes the bad guy a lot more obvious.
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May 1, 2022 01:50
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ElMaligno posted:I am not calling NATO to intervene in anything as I stated "NATO countries" and not NATO. My main problem is that people see scream in horror when they see Ukrainians getting bombed by Russians, but when Syrians got bombed by Russians they are loving silent. When we see Israelites gather couches to see Palestine getting bombed they are loving silent. When the loving Saudis bomb civilians in Yemen we also loving stay silent. 
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May 1, 2022 02:42
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everyone in that tent is 100% hosed. Putting a 155 round into a TOC from overhead yeah that's the ball game. Also them naming a specific general is likely because somehow they had good targeting data on his rear end, blame the Russians talking over unencrypted handsets i guess. E: Wait, this was their EWAR expert too? god drat you'd think they'd know better. orange juche fucked around with this message at 03:23 on May 1, 2022 |
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May 1, 2022 03:20
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:One thing RWN talked about in Grozny is that Russian units did not have interoperable comms, maps or orders beyond “follow that guy” even at our above the company or battalion level. This meant Russian officers had to personally run around Grozny in enemy territory between ambushed columns to find out what was going on or what they should do, which unsurprisingly killed a lot of them. Wonder if that’s a big reason so many Russian general officers have been getting got. Yeah, that's my thought as well. I'm just commenting on the fact that the very first round landing dead center in what looks like the TOC would be a crazy lucky shot with conventional rounds even with a ten-digit grid. So I'm wondering if the first shot was with something fancy. Would make sense that if you have a limited number of precision artillery shells to use one for a high value target in conjunction with a conventional barrage.
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May 1, 2022 03:32
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What's a TOC?
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May 1, 2022 03:41
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Tactical Operations Center
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May 1, 2022 03:47
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Arsenic Lupin posted:What's a TOC? Headquarters tent, essentially. Where the decisions get made.
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May 1, 2022 03:49
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I'm just angry and frustrated.
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May 1, 2022 03:51
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ElMaligno posted:I'm just angry and frustrated. Preach it, brother.
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May 1, 2022 03:52
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Jarmak posted:Yeah, that's my thought as well. Question: Is an M777 with the GPS guided munition accurate enough to pinpoint a tent sized object? It seems to me like it should be.
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May 1, 2022 03:59
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orange juche posted:E: Wait, this was their EWAR expert too? god drat you'd think they'd know better. Pretty sure the only way to be a general in Russia is to be an FSB person with no military credentials or history but impeccable loyalty. Heading the service doesn't mean he knows (knew, hopefully) anything about it.
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May 1, 2022 04:05
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Repent, Ukrainian! Cried the Ticked TOC Man
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May 1, 2022 04:09
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ElMaligno posted:I don't think you understood the sentiment of my post. The US did in fact support rebels in Syria, and a ton of Americans wanted to do more. Lots of people in the US and Europe are upset about Palestine. That not many people are making noise about Yemen might be because most people aren’t even aware of that conflict.
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May 1, 2022 04:11
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A.o.D. posted:Question: Is an M777 with the GPS guided munition accurate enough to pinpoint a tent sized object? It seems to me like it should be. Wiki puts the CEP on an Excalibur round at 4m, which is just.....insane for indirect fire.
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May 1, 2022 04:40
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A.o.D. posted:Question: Is an M777 with the GPS guided munition accurate enough to pinpoint a tent sized object? It seems to me like it should be. Wikipedia says yes: quote:In December 2012, Raytheon received a $56.6 million contract for low-rate initial production of Excalibur Ib projectiles.[45] On 10 September 2013, Raytheon received a $54 million contract for a second lot of Excalibur Ib artillery rounds. The Excalibur Ib has improved reliability and lower unit cost than the previous Excalibur Ia-1 and Ia-2. At the time of the award, over 690 Excalibur projectiles had been fired in theater.[46] In February 2014, the U.S. Army and Raytheon fired 30 Excalibur Ib shells at test targets to confirm the performance and reliability of the configuration before full-rate production. Projectiles were fired from Paladin and M777 howitzers at ranges from 7 to 38 km (4.3 to 24 mi), each hitting within an average of 1.6 m (5 ft 3 in) from the target.[20]
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May 1, 2022 04:43
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Guided munitions for artillery is another one of those "ditch all the truisms you grew up with" things that affects basically everything. Once you have enough of them that your entire log train isn't lugging the tonnage for units of fire for dumb barrages, you're visited by the logistics fairy.
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May 1, 2022 05:05
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It still blows my mind that we can make electronics that can survive being shot out of a cannon. I know we’ve been able to do it since WWII, but still, drat. Little shell’s got a GPS receiver and poo poo.
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May 1, 2022 06:15
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A.o.D. posted:Question: Is an M777 with the GPS guided munition accurate enough to pinpoint a tent sized object? It seems to me like it should be. A bunch of things that the Ukranians have are able to do that. Guided MLRS munitions can as well, eg [Vid of a building being shot at a bit, M1 and M2 firing sounds, no gore or people even observably in the footage, timestamped to when a single guided m270 rocket impacts] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-vB-bie_Oo&t=82s
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May 1, 2022 06:40
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orange juche posted:everyone in that tent is 100% hosed. Putting a 155 round into a TOC from overhead yeah that's the ball game. Also them naming a specific general is likely because somehow they had good targeting data on his rear end, blame the Russians talking over unencrypted handsets i guess. Seems like they knew the first round would hit but made a few more to mask the fact they had such precise munitions
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May 1, 2022 08:30
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I mean you might as well guarantee destruction of your target, particularly if you know someone specific is there, and then also blow up everything in half a kilometer, too. Good bang for your buck.
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May 1, 2022 08:38
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Madurai posted:Guided munitions for artillery is another one of those "ditch all the truisms you grew up with" things that affects basically everything. Once you have enough of them that your entire log train isn't lugging the tonnage for units of fire for dumb barrages, you're visited by the logistics fairy. The only issue with it is cost. A standard modern artillery round costs about a grand; an Excalibur costs $150k. It's definitely worth the sheer shock and awe of opening an artillery barrage by putting a shell right through the general's command tent while he's taking a poo poo, though. e: There's also been consideration of using them for situations where close air support would be nice but is infeasible and indirect fire with regular artillery rounds has a good chance of hitting your own dudes on the front line. Snipers pinning a platoon down from within 100m? Remove the building they're in from 20 miles away. Kazinsal fucked around with this message at 09:00 on May 1, 2022 |
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May 1, 2022 08:58
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IPCRESS posted:Pretty sure the only way to be a general in Russia is to be an FSB person with no military credentials or history but impeccable loyalty. After what we've seen, the idea of them having an "EW Expert" at all made me lol. Also ElMag, I feel ya and it sucks, it feels like poo poo to know that some poo poo seems to just get ignored. It really loving bothers me that Afghanistan is facing mass starvation after we all collectively abandoned them, but you won't see one mention of that anywhere either, cos, "Mission Accomplished" or whatever, I guess. Everything sucks is what I'm saying, I guess
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May 1, 2022 09:28
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Kazinsal posted:The only issue with it is cost. A standard modern artillery round costs about a grand; an Excalibur costs $150k. Would be useful in targeting logistics as well. Send an SOF team forward and put 1-2 precision rounds on a munitions depot or oil storage tank.
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May 1, 2022 09:43
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For those of you frustrated and wishing we'd do more, never fear! https://twitter.com/AP/status/1520664699137929216?cxt=HHwWgMC96ZWfvpoqAAAA
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May 1, 2022 09:45
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Basticle posted:For those of you frustrated and wishing we'd do more, never fear! So we can expect the US to dip into its strategic reserve of checks notes "epic twitter clapbacks"?
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May 1, 2022 09:50
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Nancy gonna send stockpiles of Jeni's to the Ukrainian peoples
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May 1, 2022 10:12
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I'm wondering if the constant stream of high-ranking government officials from NATO countries to Kyiv isn't as much about deterring (even more) indiscriminate russian bombardment as it is about those officials actually having a purpose there that warrants their particular presence. Tripwire dignitaries, basically.
Slashrat fucked around with this message at 10:35 on May 1, 2022 |
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May 1, 2022 10:31
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Genuinely curious what more people think we should or could be doing. We're getting ready to send rocket artillery; it looks like the former Warsaw Pact countries are on the verge of sending jets; Poland just sent 200 T-72s; the EU is going to sanction Russian oil; Finland and Sweden are about to join NATO; and the US is about to approve another $33bn aid package and is looking at how to expropriate the seized funds of Russian oligarchs. Short of NATO actively getting involved in a shooting war with Russia, what else would you have anyone do?
psydude fucked around with this message at 10:35 on May 1, 2022 |
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May 1, 2022 10:32
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psydude posted:Genuinely curious what more people think we should or could be doing. We're getting ready to send rocket artillery; it looks like the former Warsaw Pact countries are on the verge of sending jets; Poland just sent 200 T-72s; the EU is going to sanction Russian oil; Finland and Sweden are about to join NATO; and the US is about to approve another $33bn aid package and is looking at how to expropriate the seized funds of Russian oligarchs. Short of NATO actively getting involved in a shooting war with Russia, what else would you have anyone do? Training programs to get Ukrainian AF worked up on NATO equipment. The stuff we are doing hopefully gets Ukraine to the end of the year. But nobody in the West is making any more T64s or T72s or 152mm shells, once that stuff is gone then it's gone. Even if the war ends this year the Ukranian AF is going to need to start transitioning off that stuff next year to continue to deter Russia. And if the war does go long term then we should be thinking about starting now on the stuff that takes 12 months to learn how to operate and deploy.
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May 1, 2022 10:48
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Alchenar posted:Training programs to get Ukrainian AF worked up on NATO equipment. The stuff we are doing hopefully gets Ukraine to the end of the year. But nobody in the West is making any more T64s or T72s or 152mm shells, once that stuff is gone then it's gone. Even if the war ends this year the Ukranian AF is going to need to start transitioning off that stuff next year to continue to deter Russia. And if the war does go long term then we should be thinking about starting now on the stuff that takes 12 months to learn how to operate and deploy. But there were several articles that Ukrainians are getting trained on western equipment right now, and that the Ukrainian armed forced will fully switch to NATO standards in the near future.
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May 1, 2022 10:52
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Alchenar posted:Training programs to get Ukrainian AF worked up on NATO equipment. The stuff we are doing hopefully gets Ukraine to the end of the year. But nobody in the West is making any more T64s or T72s or 152mm shells, once that stuff is gone then it's gone. Even if the war ends this year the Ukranian AF is going to need to start transitioning off that stuff next year to continue to deter Russia. And if the war does go long term then we should be thinking about starting now on the stuff that takes 12 months to learn how to operate and deploy. This is being actively pursued at the moment. There's UA teams in Poland and Germany learning how to use the artillery and other modern systems given to them. I agree that there should be a long-term plan to replace their Soviet era stuff with NATO standard stuff, but obviously staunching the bleeding of territory to the Russians is the immediate concern, so I understand the focus on that. If the Ukrainians can successfully repel or at least halt the Russians in the Donbass then I suspect we'll see transfers of modern tanks and aircraft that require intensive training and reconfiguration of logistics.
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May 1, 2022 10:54
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psydude posted:Genuinely curious what more people think we should or could be doing. We're getting ready to send rocket artillery; it looks like the former Warsaw Pact countries are on the verge of sending jets; Poland just sent 200 T-72s; the EU is going to sanction Russian oil; Finland and Sweden are about to join NATO; and the US is about to approve another $33bn aid package and is looking at how to expropriate the seized funds of Russian oligarchs. Short of NATO actively getting involved in a shooting war with Russia, what else would you have anyone do? My complaint was with photo op tourism. Thinking about it, Pelosi's 3rd in line of succession, so maybe this is one of those times where symbolism is important. When it comes to material contributions, the USA has done an amazing amount of good in this part of the world and the 33bn package is incredibly important, not only because it provides surety of supply to Ukraine, but also a pretty unmistakable signal to Russia that Western support for Ukraine is locked in.
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May 1, 2022 11:05
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psydude posted:Genuinely curious what more people think we should or could be doing. We're getting ready to send rocket artillery; it looks like the former Warsaw Pact countries are on the verge of sending jets; Poland just sent 200 T-72s; the EU is going to sanction Russian oil; Finland and Sweden are about to join NATO; and the US is about to approve another $33bn aid package and is looking at how to expropriate the seized funds of Russian oligarchs. Short of NATO actively getting involved in a shooting war with Russia, what else would you have anyone do? Here's what I want. I want the Russians out of Ukraine. I'm willing to support whatever that takes, but I'd prefer to see a measured, incremental approach that leverages political, diplomatic, economic, and finally military aid to Ukraine. The longer Russia presses the attack, the more aid I want given until it's sufficient to either convince the Russians to leave, or forcibly remove them from Ukrainian territory. There is no acceptable scenario where Ukraine is subjugated. I don't think I can make myself any more clear on this topic. Jarmak posted:Wikipedia says yes: Let me do some quick math here... that's sub MOA for tube artillery? A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 11:45 on May 1, 2022 |
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May 1, 2022 11:32
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A.o.D. posted:Here's what I want. I want the Russians out of Ukraine. I'm willing to support whatever that takes, but I'd prefer to see a measured, incremental approach that leverages political, diplomatic, economic, and finally military aid to Ukraine. The longer Russia presses the attack, the more aid I want given until it's sufficient to either convince the Russians to leave, or forcibly remove them from Ukrainian territory.  відрізати голову змії
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May 1, 2022 12:53
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IPCRESS posted:
After 20 years of shock doctrine turning Ukraine into what is now and playing pick the oligarch let’s not pat ourselves on the back too hard now that the US has finally given Ukraine extensive aid only after they start getting cities flattened. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 13:18 on May 1, 2022 |
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May 1, 2022 13:02
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Not only Ukraine. After this shitshow somehow stabilizes, there will likely be a semblance of a Russia left that a) has nuclear weapons and b) is still in a poo poo economic state after 30+ years. Turning people over to the idea of a liberal democracy after having had their bread and butter secured by Stronk Muzhik Man in exchange for trifles like freedom and human rights isn't going to be cheap. This is going to be to Marshall Plan of the Cold War.
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May 1, 2022 13:24
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