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yeah im not sure why a new mode that actually has personality and stakes that arent dumbass "pick up the medals" and every class has an actual sense of class fantasy now is bad and irredeemable like how it often gets talked about in this thread lol. like feast would never have let me be a menace to the enemy team like this https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1521341554786406401/pu/vid/1280x720/crqrs8JY40m-vgBl.mp4?tag=12
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May 3, 2022 07:07
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If anything this thread is pro CC propaganda. Maybe you just notice things you disagree with more?
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May 3, 2022 07:33
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opinions are split. i appreciate everyone who is reasonable about the mode, like or dislike. but there is a contingent including one person im not allowed to name cuz the mods get mad if you do that :) who sure cant stop talking about how much the mode sucks.
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May 3, 2022 07:36
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it's a good thing they're wrong and the mode rocks
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May 3, 2022 07:39
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Honestly, Crystal Conflict is fine, but suffers much more than Frontlines from the wack-rear end balance of the overall PvP revamp. Like, you have to be blind not to notice that the meta is clearly 'Warrior, White Mage, Dragoon and Samurai above all' with a couple other jobs being able to contribute but never being main choices. In Frontlines it's opened up new ways for stacks to get unfair, but that doesn't actually change how unbalanced Frontlines is, it just makes it look different. Yeah, it's better than the Feast, but just taking out the small-party PvP option at all would've been better than the Feast.
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May 3, 2022 07:48
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you are literally wrong and im not gonna dignify you with a response more substantive than that
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May 3, 2022 07:52
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I will say that the balance problems are entirely fixable, they're just extremely obviously not fixed right now. And of all the game's PvP modes, Rival Wings has the highest ability to be good with these changes, as the player count avoids the problems CC hits and Hidden Gorge's map avoids the problems Frontlines hit. So hopefully 6.2 will manage to both do a good balance pass to stop the dominance of certain jobs (or at least allow the lesser ones to compete), and bring Rival Wings back with enough daily incentive that people actually play the loving thing.
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May 3, 2022 08:02
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Kagaya Homoraisan posted:you are literally wrong and im not gonna dignify you with a response more substantive than that
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May 3, 2022 08:12
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Samurai's not really meta anymore IMO. BLM or SMN are usually higher priority targets for me.
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May 3, 2022 08:40
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i had good success with scholar in CC 
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May 3, 2022 08:46
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Kerrzhe posted:i had good success with scholar in CC SCH is definitely in that second tier (along with my CC main, Machinist); handy enough that you're never really gonna curse your team comp for having it instead of something else, unless that 'something else' is one of the big stars. The real mourners are jobs like Gunbreaker. Oh, and has anyone played Onsai Hakair in 6.1? I don't because the only Frontlines reward I want is Seal Rock's, but I've been told that Paladin's invuln just turbofucks the ovoo system.
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May 3, 2022 09:20
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I don't think SMN is as absurdly broken as it used to be in FL. It's still good but people have learned things like "I have an instant multi-charge heal that will immediately counteract all damage that a super telegraphed Bahamut will inflict". I used to get like 10 killing blows per cast but now I'm happy with 1, and while I tend to die about twice per match, it's never to SMN LB. Theoretically if several of them were used at the exact same second it would instagib a group with no recourse but I've never seen that happen.
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May 3, 2022 09:28
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Cleretic posted:SCH is definitely in that second tier (along with my CC main, Machinist); handy enough that you're never really gonna curse your team comp for having it instead of something else, unless that 'something else' is one of the big stars. The real mourners are jobs like Gunbreaker. I definitely curse the opponent's team comp if they have a machinist, because they like deleting me every time their LB is up, and there is just nothing you can do to prevent it.
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May 3, 2022 09:33
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SettingSun posted:It appears that they rebuilt pvp from the ground up for CC since some jobs are next to useless in FL due to player count, like Monk. Nice, you obliterated one guy. Now what are you gonna do? I’ve been using monk in frontline since I capped bard and having a lot of fun suplexing people. Monk helps quite a bit as a part of the murderball.
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May 3, 2022 13:09
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Tamba posted:I definitely curse the opponent's team comp if they have a machinist, because they like deleting me every time their LB is up, and there is just nothing you can do to prevent it. Thankfully in bronze / silver, the mch that always focus me with their LB always do it while I'm at full health so I don't actually die 
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May 3, 2022 13:30
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Here’s the thing about the CC meta. Those broken jobs only work when people know how to play the jobs. WAR is awesome at low levels because people don’t really understand how to defend against it. I have found when I hit Platinum I hit the biggest wall, and it was solely due to having people primarily in the Gold/Platinum level where I think all the “I play the Meta” people have ended up but don’t actually know the finer points of the game mode. I’ve seen Warrior’s with 7+ deaths because they go “TIME TO FLY AND STUN” only to lob themselves into a murder ball. Fail to hit any sort of defence button, get stunned themselves from a WHM or something and then get blown up. Your team will now be fighting a 4 on 5 and it’s going to get lopsided fast. I’m more afraid of a good Ninja then I am a SAM that is playing to the meta. There’s a NIN I’ve played with and against called Mini Hamham who I now fear because I’ve seen him wreck parties because he has great tactics. Finally making it into Diamond I’ve found that my teams are getting blown up a lot less and I haven’t seen the WAR/WHM combo nearly as much. I much prefer to see 1/2 melee jobs (could be tank, but a couple DPS helps) so that it takes the heat off of me a little so I can focus back as ranged. I got like, 5 wins in a row in Diamond to get all the way to Diamond 2. I’ve fallen back to Diamond 3, but I appreciate how the fights go at the Diamond tier way more because I haven’t seen complete failures at their job like I did plat/gold. I’ve even seen good Dancers. So yeah, while there’s some jobs I think that are excellent and you always like to see, don’t count out a really good Monk. I find it’s less the job that highly matters at that level and more the party strategy. If you have a party that can use their defence options at their max, they can be unstoppable. I ran into a party where my group had upper hand and it was OT and all we had to do was push them out of Crystal. The other group was so co-ordinated they pushed and won. They would have someone in Crystal, pop guard and if someone had been in there and couldn’t guard they would now run out, pop elixir and come back to switch guards. This enabled them to get party members back to put up enough of a fight because most of our group wasn’t competent at the whole guarding thing and kept getting blown up. CC is good, but even if you’re good you can’t carry a party and that can be incredibly frustrating.
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May 3, 2022 13:56
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The Black Stones posted:There’s a NIN I’ve played with and against called Mini Hamham who I now fear because I’ve seen him wreck parties because he has great tactics. 
Yapping Eevee fucked around with this message at 14:06 on May 3, 2022 |
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May 3, 2022 14:03
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CC is maybe the only good MMO pvp out there. I play as AST because I don't like WHM and its really cool how I can basically play the same way as pve, where i stay behind, constantly throwing out buffs and heals with some AoE damage thrown in and just rack up assists as my team grinds through the other team in a war of attrition because we get LB first and anyone they try to focus gets a fat shield on them to help buy time to guard/purify/recuperate. On the other hand, if the other team tries to focus me down, I'm not exactly carrying with hard CC and damage so I'm never the most dangerous person on my team. I just make the most dangerous person even more dangerous.
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May 3, 2022 14:13
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Yeah, WAR being "meta" is deceptive, because WAR is often a test of "Do you understand the damage paradigm in PvP" and you will get smashed immediately in higher tiers even as WAR if you don't understand that, as all jobs die to concentrated fire of 3+ people pretty much immediately, while WAR does not have enough damage to realistically 1v1 unless you have LB. WHM is a bit different because WHM lets you hang back a lot more and has a lot of free bail-outs, so it tends to be far more oppressive for people that don't know what they're doing vs a well-coordinated team. And, tbh, a lot of the jobs are people just still not knowing what they're doing. For example, GNB is undertuned right now as a tank, but GNB has amongst the highest DPS among all classes in the game, so the current correct way to play GNB is to go full DPS junction and smash people. And while this still lands them amongst the worst classes in the game, that's actually largely an issue of utility/disruptability right now and almost any GNB that is left unharassed and knows what they're doing will smash your team way faster than a WAR will. That's sort of the joke. The meta in CC is really about well you disrupt opponents and how well you resist getting disrupted yourself, because even the highest DPS classes in the game can't kill you 1v1 in less than 20-ish seconds without LB unless they time their CC correctly. DRG, despite being a pure damage class, is more meta because they resist disruption incredibly well with their disengage and toolset, in addition to their damage serving as a disruption tool. NIN is similar to DRG in that sense except with even better disengage and actual CC tools in exchange for losing more normal damage tools as disruption. SAM is semi-meta because people are incentivized not to disrupt you. WAR and WHM are meta because they're the best at disrupting enemies with CC. But this idea behind the meta doesn't actually show up very well in lower ranks because people aren't on the ball with their defensives and don't have good focus fire tactics. By comparison, every job that is "not meta" usually lacks the ability to resist disruption, or simply doesn't have the correct mix of damage and utility to properly disrupt an opponent from executing their gameplan (BLM, a very low-to-mid tierish example, depending on who you ask, is a good example of this because they are incredibly powerful at disrupting opponents due to chain Deep Freeze or booting opponents off the point with pure fire damage, but they have no recourse against disruption themselves). It just happens to be an unfortunate coincidence that the "meta" jobs happen to also be the classes with the easiest skill floor, so stuff WAR/WHM/DRG/SAM breaks lower ranks, but for generally different (and far more broken) reasons (less so for NIN because NIN is a bit harder to play). Whereas the meta in the top ranks is still lopsided towards those classes, but to a way less egregious degree, because the damage difference has to be pretty extreme (i.e., PLD vs most other classes) for it to be the deciding factor behind whether a class is good or not. It's for this reason that a lot of lower ranked players tried to claim pre-patch RDM wasn't broken while it was, in fact, competitive for the best classes in the game back then (with some higher ranked people claiming it was only exceeded by WHM ), and why RDM fell more significantly in meta after the patch as their largest nerf was targeted at their main disruption tool (Resolution). Their DoT nerfs were painful, sure, but they still had enough DPS to chew through an entire MP bar in one combo anyway, so it was less impactful than it seemed, by comparison. AncientSpark fucked around with this message at 14:58 on May 3, 2022 |
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May 3, 2022 14:14
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I'm not good at PVP by any measure but sometimes the stars align, and the feeling of rushing people down and piledriving them never gets old.
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May 3, 2022 14:20
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I don’t CC much, but I see lots of job variety in frontlines when I do my daily roulette. Yeah, sometimes you’ll have a book club, but sometimes you’ll also have a party that’s almost all bards. Generally I’ve seen pretty diverse groups and all jobs are present in any given frontline.
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May 3, 2022 14:21
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YggiDee posted:I'm not good at PVP by any measure but sometimes the stars align, and the feeling of rushing people down and piledriving them never gets old. I’ve found Monk isn’t so much a “delete a person from full” but as a part of a murder ball you can easily dart around and murder people at half life with ease. The LB is top notch!
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May 3, 2022 14:23
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Vargs posted:I don't think SMN is as absurdly broken as it used to be in FL. 
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May 3, 2022 14:40
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smn (and now apparently sch?) do absolutely ridiculous damage in frontlines i've watched coordinated smn lb's delete entire teams in seconds you can enjoy the new pvp without thinking that it's perfect
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May 3, 2022 15:05
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YggiDee posted:I turned battle effects to limited the first time I did an Alliance Raid and never turned them back on I turned them to limited even as far back as fate grinding. I like seeing the enemy designs
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May 3, 2022 15:08
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Oneiros posted:smn (and now apparently sch?) do absolutely ridiculous damage in frontlines Yeah, the Library Card Holders do really well at exploiting the fact Frontlines has a lot of chokepoints and fighting over focused points; SMN with Bahamut, SCH with Biolysis. And judging by the balance changes with the patch that brought the Ultimate, the devs don't appear to have a problem with that at all, because the balance changes were all focused on CC performance. People have learned to play around it a little bit more, but that doesn't mean it isn't the dominant strategy and they aren't the most powerful jobs in the mode.
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May 3, 2022 15:12
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Mr. Nice! posted:I’ve found Monk isn’t so much a “delete a person from full” but as a part of a murder ball you can easily dart around and murder people at half life with ease. As soon as someone is out of position, dash in -> stun -> run through -> knockback enemy into your murderball -> charge in or limit break to get back to safety Also don't underestimate a Boosted Phantom Rush -> Stun -> Boosted knockback -> LB. Can change the order you hit things to break guard too.
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May 3, 2022 15:12
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I could see a sch ruining murderballs. Sch’s kit is just a really nice counter to a lot of common tactics cause it’s really hard to avoid, and absolutely wrecks teams who have members run back into the ball for safety, which instead leads to debuffs for everyone. It’ll just never be reflected on the scoreboard as kills so no one notices until they lose to a good team in CC with a scholar, and even then it’s hard to tell outside of seeing scholar having the most dmg on the board despite 0 kills.
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May 3, 2022 15:13
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Allarion posted:I could see a sch ruining murderballs. Sch’s kit is just a really nice counter to a lot of common tactics cause it’s really hard to avoid, and absolutely wrecks teams who have members run back into the ball for safety, which instead leads to debuffs for everyone. It’ll just never be reflected on the scoreboard as kills so no one notices until they lose to a good team in CC with a scholar, and even then it’s hard to tell outside of seeing scholar having the most dmg on the board despite 0 kills. it's not reflected in kills but if you sort by damage you'll see a wall of dozens of scholars
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May 3, 2022 15:16
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I don't do CC (or any small group pvp) because I am beyond awful at pvp and any small group with me on it is doomed
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May 3, 2022 15:22
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YggiDee posted:I turned battle effects to limited the first time I did an Alliance Raid and never turned them back on I like to have full battle effects on for dungeons but turn them off for everything else. Or, rather, I forget to turn them off for everything else and then have to fumble in the settings mid-battle every time I enter an alliance raid.
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May 3, 2022 15:24
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FuturePastNow posted:I don't do CC (or any small group pvp) because I am beyond awful at pvp and any small group with me on it is doomed That's what I thought and I'm crystal now! Give it a shot!
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May 3, 2022 15:24
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I got archfiend coffer and some stuff I wanted from crystal trophy merchant, so I can just wait until next season whether it will be better balanced. I just wish SMN weapon was more interesting, oh well.
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May 3, 2022 15:31
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Harrow posted:I like to have full battle effects on for dungeons but turn them off for everything else. Or, rather, I forget to turn them off for everything else and then have to fumble in the settings mid-battle every time I enter an alliance raid. Same. Also, I like seeing the big summons in other content, so I've gotten really quick at typing the petsize command. I should probably just make a pair of macros.
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May 3, 2022 16:51
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I keep meaning to change the pet size since they come up at really inopportune moments in raid but I always forget
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May 3, 2022 17:05
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Mainwaring posted:Something I never understood about the post stormblood msq: Golden bahamut, hence the title
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May 3, 2022 17:18
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I feel like there is a difference between how well the game mode is actually balanced, and how well people think its balanced. Some things might be EXTREMELY popular because they are perceived as being good. I don't think WAR and WHM are THAT much stronger than everything else. I think its just because we see them all the time, every game, and we see them all the time every game because people think they're good. After all, they must be good, otherwise why would people play them every game? Its just a meme that reinforces itself. There might have been some truth to it at first but just try some different things.
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May 3, 2022 17:31
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https://twitter.com/redditffxiv/status/1521481647534837764?s=21&t=lYtYhp749qIc1TLJS8xcuQ
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May 3, 2022 17:34
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There is no debate concerning whm's quality in pvp. Their lb is absurdly good and that is more than enough to propel them into Universally Good status, let alone their capability for burst and their healing.
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May 3, 2022 17:34
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Regalingualius posted:https://twitter.com/redditffxiv/status/1521481647534837764?s=21&t=lYtYhp749qIc1TLJS8xcuQ This reminds me of that one cosplay trick some photographer did where the final image looks like the cosplayer is laying in a bed of flowers but really it turned out they were popping out of a bush at an angle. I wish I could find that picture set, it's great.
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