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Yea that's also important, as much as he was a heroic figure to the world that guy mainly saw it as 'one day dad got pulled into these stupid loving city states' conflict and never came back because of them' and...I mean yea kinda fair for him to be nursing a bit of 'I'm done losing family to this poo poo, we're getting on the space ship even if I'm dragging you kicking and screaming' even when it's not helpful.
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May 4, 2022 20:04
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TheWorldsaStage posted:Pertinent The one I want to see is the Bernie Sanders "I'm once again..." meme but with Zenos asking you to fight him. W.T. Fits posted:Zenos's entire thing from Stormblood up until Fandaniel kills Zodiark on the moon has been, "I want a singular, transcendental moment of violent bliss, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to provoke you into fighting me with every negative emotion you're capable of feeling in order to get it." Even if the idea was Fandaniel's, he still agreed to allow it and participated in it. So he's just as culpable as Fandaniel was. And is why there is no option to simply ditch Zenos in the rear end end of the apocalypse. The guy has already proven he has the survivability of a juiced up cockroach, and you can be drat sure that if you don't put him down then and there he's going to come back and keep killing people until you do agree to fight him. He is more than happy to hold the world hostage to get what he wants. Given the situation and options available, walking away is also denying that you're a hero since at that point you're avoiding the fight out of spite and putting more innocents in harms way for it. If you wanted your hero status AND want to spite Zenos, you'd need some way to lock him up, which simply isn't available (and you'd probably still have to fight him to put him in whatever magic jail cell you whipped up). No Dignity posted:The one dialogue option where I really felt my arm being twisted by the writers was during Fandaniel's farewell scene, I did not have a single drop of sympathy for him after all of the poo poo he pulled and would have slammed on 'rot in hell' in a second I think this goes to my overarching point on the antagonist Ancients as a whole: Amon can rot in hell, but Fandaniel/Hermes was a broken person. I liked Elpis, but one thing I wish they'd done was give a nod to the idea that the Ancients creating and destroying living creatures on a whim was a bit hosed up from the WoL's perspective. Hermes' plot was that he was being ground down by watching what he considered living beings with their own hopes and desires deserving of life on that merit alone get constantly destroyed and reimagined because one of his peers thought it didn't fit the criteria they were looking for. He had a deep seated objection to the core underpinnings of Ancient society. In fact, his point of view should have been pretty resonant with the WoL, given how you come from a society where you'd rightly be looked at as a psychopath for using creation magic like the Ancients did. He decides to go searching for a meaning to life, since the answer his own society provides rings hollow with him and he can't square it with what he observes in other creations. In the end, the answer he got back broke him just like it broke Meteion. My interpretation of the scene was that any sympathy you had was directed toward Hermes. Also I wouldn't hand anyone over to Asahi's tender ministrations under any circumstances. gently caress that guy. At least Zenos is cruel to get what he wants. Asahi is just a spiteful jackass who would have been a serial killer if the Garleans hadn't drafted him. I'm reasonably sure he's the type of kid who'd break a dog's leg to watch it suffer.
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May 4, 2022 20:22
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Warmachine posted:I think this goes to my overarching point on the antagonist Ancients as a whole: Amon can rot in hell, but Fandaniel/Hermes was a broken person. I liked Elpis, but one thing I wish they'd done was give a nod to the idea that the Ancients creating and destroying living creatures on a whim was a bit hosed up from the WoL's perspective. Hermes' plot was that he was being ground down by watching what he considered living beings with their own hopes and desires deserving of life on that merit alone get constantly destroyed and reimagined because one of his peers thought it didn't fit the criteria they were looking for. He had a deep seated objection to the core underpinnings of Ancient society. In fact, his point of view should have been pretty resonant with the WoL, given how you come from a society where you'd rightly be looked at as a psychopath for using creation magic like the Ancients did. But we disperse our arcane constructs, including familiars like Lily or Y'shtola's familiars, all the time. It isn't actually that different and we have no indication that the Ancients were casual with the dispersal of ensouled, sapient familiars specifically. I still feel a lot of it was just that Hermes was morbidly depressed and entirely concerned with his own anguish at having to do something unpleasant.
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May 4, 2022 21:07
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we literally convince emet selch to save a sanuwa and it only takes a small amount of begging, not because were just that effective at begging but because deep down he is a sentimental person and does care, he just does not like to show this. he was given the choice and chose to give the sanuwa the best chance at life he could, rather than just unzapping it instantly. thats literally the text of the story. i think people get wrapped up on the aspect that hermes's criticism has a note of truth to it and completely skip over how warped his thinking became about the matter. hes more wrong than right, and the smidgen of right does not absolve him of the wrong.
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May 4, 2022 21:17
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Yeah, my takeaway was that Hermes was basically just a doomer who decided to make his malaise everyone else's problem, he didn't experience any profound trauma or uncover some terrible secret that underpins the Ancient's paradise he just couldn't get external validation for how he felt kinda lost in the world. idk it's such a pathetic, self-pitying motivation for the absolute horror he inflicts on the universe that I really found him contemptible like no one else
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May 4, 2022 21:17
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Kagaya Homoraisan posted:we literally convince emet selch to save a sanuwa and it only takes a small amount of begging, not because were just that effective at begging but because deep down he is a sentimental person and does care, he just does not like to show this. he was given the choice and chose to give the sanuwa the best chance at life he could, rather than just unzapping it instantly. this is a great point. you only had to beg the unaccountable god-mage a little to not kill something on a whim, and he changed his approach! his culture's arrogant assertion they are the planets true masters and worthy to make and unmake life does not go on to inform either of the hosed up fascist empires he built or his genocidal quest to wipe the subhuman scum from the face of earth(s) wait I'm being snide obviously but Elpis is very obviously not meant to be entirely chill, and its callous attitude towards life is reflected across allag and Garlemald and Sharlayan in ways that are far more than incidental Valentin fucked around with this message at 21:26 on May 4, 2022 |
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May 4, 2022 21:23
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Valentin posted:this is a great point. you only had to beg the unaccountable god-mage to not kill something on a whim a little, and he changed his approach and his culture's depraved approach to life does not also inform either of the hosed up fascist empires he built or his genocidal quest to wipe the subhuman scum from the face of earth(s) We do far worse to animals as a matter of course. The Warrior of Light inside the game's story will kill anything for any reason, if that was meant to be the game's Those Who Walk Away From Omelas scene they did a terrible job
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May 4, 2022 21:26
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No Dignity posted:Yeah, my takeaway was that Hermes was basically just a doomer who decided to make his malaise everyone else's problem, he didn't experience any profound trauma or uncover some terrible secret that underpins the Ancient's paradise he just couldn't get external validation for how he felt kinda lost in the world. idk it's such a pathetic, self-pitying motivation for the absolute horror he inflicts on the universe that I really found him contemptible like no one else I think this is a really uncharitable takeaway. Dude felt loss of life severely, and he felt totally alone in his society and desperately looking for light. That it turned out as bad as it did is a testament to how unimaginably it broke him when the birds returned with their message.
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May 4, 2022 21:28
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No Dignity posted:We do far worse to animals as a matter of course. The Warrior of Light inside the game's story will kill anything for any reason, if that was meant to be the game's Those Who Walk Away From Omelas scene they did a terrible job The WoL doesn't make life just to kill it, and importantly never adopts the position that it's fine to kill some things because hey, they don't really count! This turns out to be a key philosophical difference because, as Emet-Selch explains in ShB in great detail, "it's not genocide if you believe the victims don't count" is his most important personal belief.
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May 4, 2022 21:29
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I'm not quite that harsh on him - if Endwalker has a simple mental health theme it's "depression and despair are a gently caress it's almost impossible to escape without help and it doesn't mean you're a bad person," and Hermes is obviously morbidly depressed. He comes up with a deep existential crisis from it because he is a basically smart, thoughtful guy who constantly doubts himself and resents how nobody else seems to be going through what he is. But like the other societies who introspect themselves into their own annihilation, he is inserting an existential crisis that doesn't actually need to exist. But it's worth noting that once his own escape from his self-inflicted emotional hell even appears jeopardized, not only does he condemn the daughter(s) figure he loves to eons of lonely anguish and misery to make the society he feels so alienated within pay, he throws those very creations whose deaths so trouble him at you to hold you back as cannon fodder. The philosophical objection is cover for the untreated emotional wounds. And for all his love of life, he ensures infinitely more permanent suffering and loss than ever bothered him. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:32 on May 4, 2022 |
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May 4, 2022 21:29
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I absolutely see Hermes as someone who is so depressed that he's at the point where the only answers he's willing to listen to are as depressed and black as he is. I've been there. I probably spent most of my life there. So it's something I'm very familiar with, but yeah ultimately to me he's just someone who only wants to hear what he wants to hear back, refuses to listen to actual advice, and is closed off at to ever asking for help because he'll get the "wrong" (actually helpful) answers. And then he goes and inflicts that upon the universe, and it goes well past the point of being sympathetic. On Zenos I was really sad that the MSQ did not make a single mention of you being a reaper til 6.1 Not Even Zenos. Some best fight friend he is, you'd think he'd comment on me doing the same thing he is just so I can one up him at his own game.
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May 4, 2022 21:31
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I don't know what I was expecting to happen with Sharlyan but the fact that we're just supposed to go 'well I suppose it's okay that they broke their own rules about mind altering magics because they felt it was so important that the common folk not know about the existential threat to their planet because they meant well' was kind of strange. Like, we know where that sort of things leads, the villain from the AST quests had basically the same motivation for murdering people because everyone else was just too dumb to be trusted with knowledge and he's still in the forum, but it's fine because...I guess we proved them wrong because once we found out about the problem they were hiding from us we solved it for them? It's kind of the same problem with Fourchenault. We proved him wrong so we ignore him disowning his kids because he loved them too much. Like, sure, he meant well, but you can find loads of people whose parents meant well and it doesn't make them less hurt.
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May 4, 2022 21:32
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Valentin posted:this is a great point. you only had to beg the unaccountable god-mage a little to not kill something on a whim, and he changed his approach! his culture's arrogant assertion they are the planets true masters and worthy to make and unmake life does not go on to inform either of the hosed up fascist empires he built or his genocidal quest to wipe the subhuman scum from the face of earth(s) dawg i literally said he was partially right! his solution to something bugging him was to get so self absorbed and wrapped up in it he let it dictate his entire loving life, instead of talking to the people right next to him who pretty clearly were not the scapegoats he made them in his mind. elpis had some weirdness to it! literally all society and human interaction has weirdness to it lol. the solution is to reach out, try to build understanding, try to change. believe in hope and believe in people! hermes wanted to just run away from the problem by assuming that somewhere else things must be better. really truly incredible how no one in this thread can read.
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May 4, 2022 21:33
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Hellioning posted:I don't know what I was expecting to happen with Sharlyan but the fact that we're just supposed to go 'well I suppose it's okay that they broke their own rules about mind altering magics because they felt it was so important that the common folk not know about the existential threat to their planet because they meant well' was kind of strange. Like, we know where that sort of things leads, the villain from the AST quests had basically the same motivation for murdering people because everyone else was just too dumb to be trusted with knowledge and he's still in the forum, but it's fine because...I guess we proved them wrong because once we found out about the problem they were hiding from us we solved it for them? My own theory for Sharlyan was that they were actually founded by Ellidibus in the First era to keep a record of the world that would be destroyed by the calamities, so that the Ascians would always remember the cost once the world was healed. That Labyrinthos was their calamity fallout bunker and we'd see the Forum working with Fandaniel and the Teleophoroi because they wouldn't know about us just killing all the actual Ascians and Fandaniel loving with them. Hence them knowing if it was a real calamity or not. I just wish the actual reveal was more interesting.
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May 4, 2022 21:35
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Eimi posted:I absolutely see Hermes as someone who is so depressed that he's at the point where the only answers he's willing to listen to are as depressed and black as he is. I've been there. I probably spent most of my life there. So it's something I'm very familiar with, but yeah ultimately to me he's just someone who only wants to hear what he wants to hear back, refuses to listen to actual advice, and is closed off at to ever asking for help because he'll get the "wrong" (actually helpful) answers. And then he goes and inflicts that upon the universe, and it goes well past the point of being sympathetic. Absolutely 100%. The terminal point of becoming a blasphemy is just a literalizing of being black pilled to the point that you hate the people offering hope or optimism for making you hurt and feel like a freak, and lashing out at the rest of the world for Not Understanding How Hopeless It Is, I'll Show You All! Hermes isn't literally a blasphemy, but in spirit he totally is. Right down to assuming a form as Amon that mocks his fears and hopes and reflects his depression-rage. Everything Amon does and is is a giant furious middle finger to Elpis and Hermes and the Unsundered World at large, a grotesque narcissistic rage. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:40 on May 4, 2022 |
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May 4, 2022 21:36
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Valentin posted:The WoL doesn't make life just to kill it, and importantly never adopts the position that it's fine to kill some things because hey, they don't really count! This turns out to be a key philosophical difference because, as Emet-Selch explains in ShB in great detail, "it's not genocide if you believe the victims don't count" is his most important personal belief. The Warrior of Light will kill three giant snakes to make some perfume for a lady to go on a date or whatever, the only difference between that and what Hythlo does seems to be that you think the WoL respects the animals as they kill them or something, but they're basically the same acts
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May 4, 2022 21:37
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I was a little down on them when I first went to Elpis for just nonchalantly killing those butterflies to use their aether, but yeah, the WoL does worse for far more mundane reasons.
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May 4, 2022 21:41
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Valentin posted:The WoL doesn't make life just to kill it, and importantly never adopts the position that it's fine to kill some things because hey, they don't really count! This turns out to be a key philosophical difference because, as Emet-Selch explains in ShB in great detail, "it's not genocide if you believe the victims don't count" is his most important personal belief. Actually, I'm pretty sure that Emet-Selch, despite his claims, at no point believes that his actions towards the shards aren't genocide. He knows what he's doing is wrong, it's why he's looking for another option in the first place. Emet doesn't pontificate about the failings of the sundered to convince the WoL, he doesn't need to do that. He's doing it to convince himself, because your actions have brought all his doubts back to the forefront of his mind.
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May 4, 2022 21:44
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No Dignity posted:The one dialogue option where I really felt my arm being twisted by the writers was during Fandaniel's farewell scene, I did not have a single drop of sympathy for him after all of the poo poo he pulled and would have slammed on 'rot in hell' in a second I never thought I'd cheer for Asahi, but his "you dragged my body around and now you think you get to just die sadly?" was great.
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May 4, 2022 21:45
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Hell remember that Y'shtola points out outright that while the Elpis era Ancients see you as a funny interesting little familiar, worthy of empathy but fundamentally a lesser (though still worthy) form of life made to serve a purpose, Emet's recreations of Amaurot, made by a man who had come to know and on some level care for the Sundered, address you as children in need of guidance and protection. EDIT: Given that he consistently frames it as a world you will get to join, it's literally the same thing as Fourchenault on some levels. "This will hurt and be awful and I know it's cruel but you'll thank me when I save the world and your lives. It's all for your own benefit." He doesn't go full on contempt rage until you confront him in Amaurot and while it's clearly sincerely expressing his frustrations it's also at the point he's decided to chance it all on "who wins, then?" He at no point ever actually needed to fight you. Even condescending to offer a pitched battle is something he chooses to do. He could have just sat out of reach until you turned and died. It would have been the pragmatic thing to do! It would have been upholding his duty to the Unsundered, even! Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:52 on May 4, 2022 |
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May 4, 2022 21:47
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ffxiv:fourchenault leveilleur::anthony carver:gunnerkrigg court no, I will not be taking any questions
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May 4, 2022 21:50
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sweet geek swag posted:Actually, I'm pretty sure that Emet-Selch, despite his claims, at no point believes that his actions towards the shards aren't genocide. He knows what he's doing is wrong, it's why he's looking for another option in the first place. Emet doesn't pontificate about the failings of the sundered to convince the WoL, he doesn't need to do that. He's doing it to convince himself, because your actions have brought all his doubts back to the forefront of his mind. "I do not consider you to be truly alive. Ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you." I guess it's possible under this logic to not regard what he does as mass murder but it seems pretty unlikely. And we can argue about to what extent he truly believes this but he believes it enough for it to be the basis for seven rejoinings, which seems like plenty! Jetrauben posted:
he means after you die lmao he's talking about azem, not you. your stain is getting expunged from history's weave. He's pretty clear on this!
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May 4, 2022 21:51
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Valentin posted:"I do not consider you to be truly alive. Ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you." I guess it's possible under this logic to not regard what he does as mass murder but it seems pretty unlikely. And we can argue about to what extent he truly believes this but he believes it enough for it to be the basis for seven rejoinings, which seems like plenty! The man is so consumed with guilt he basically says it in EW. "Why on earth would I invite you to my secret lair that only I can reach when you're the only person on Etheirys who could kill me?" 
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May 4, 2022 21:53
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No Dignity posted:Yeah, my takeaway was that Hermes was basically just a doomer who decided to make his malaise everyone else's problem, he didn't experience any profound trauma or uncover some terrible secret that underpins the Ancient's paradise he just couldn't get external validation for how he felt kinda lost in the world. idk it's such a pathetic, self-pitying motivation for the absolute horror he inflicts on the universe that I really found him contemptible like no one else Dwesa fucked around with this message at 22:02 on May 4, 2022 |
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May 4, 2022 21:53
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Valentin posted:"I do not consider you to be truly alive. Ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you." I guess it's possible under this logic to not regard what he does as mass murder but it seems pretty unlikely. And we can argue about to what extent he truly believes this but he believes it enough for it to be the basis for seven rejoinings, which seems like plenty! A man who was truly so secure in his purpose would neither have invited you to kill him in the first place or have to insist constantly he totally doesn't see you as a person. Especially when the literal product of his dreams and subconscious thoughts treats you and yours as not only people but a precious and vulnerable type of person who will one day blossom to adulthood and change the world for the next generation. Emet-Selch does not openly lie. He is also a gigantic liar. To himself most of all. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:59 on May 4, 2022 |
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May 4, 2022 21:54
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Eimi posted:My own theory for Sharlyan was that they were actually founded by Ellidibus in the First era to keep a record of the world that would be destroyed by the calamities, so that the Ascians would always remember the cost once the world was healed. That Labyrinthos was their calamity fallout bunker and we'd see the Forum working with Fandaniel and the Teleophoroi because they wouldn't know about us just killing all the actual Ascians and Fandaniel loving with them. Hence them knowing if it was a real calamity or not. Lore already stated Sharlayan was founded in the Sixth Era after the War of the Magi so it would have had to be a relatively recent project by Elidibus. And also the Forum working with the guy who literally announced he wanted everyone to die and was causing unprecedented chaos even by Ascian standards would have made them straight up villains. Would make more sense that they had worked with the Ascians/Elidibus and didn't think Fandaniel was bringing the Final Days because the Ascians had explained that to them. But that's not the direction they went in, anyways. Also the whole "the Ancients casually unmade life!", while it is 100% one of their faults and unnerving to us, for them it's like how we eat cows and wear their skin or terminate horses with broken legs. Only more distressing since it's unmaking rather than death. the true question is why did Hythlo use the butterfly to make the robes instead of just making the robes directly. he's a psycho, i tell you
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May 4, 2022 22:05
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Dwesa posted:I think one of overarching themes of FFXIV is that no one is not worth of empathy or understanding (ok, maybe Asahi and Grynewaht and Valens are not). Beast tribes might be inhuman and they tend to summon gods that endanger whole planet, but they do it because they're desperate. Dragons attack Ishgard, because they were betrayed and cannot live with it while Ishgardians were religious fanatics that are dealing with losing the foundation of their society and faith. Ala Mhigans need to deal with their collaborators and Yotsuyu was product of a hosed up society, just like Zenos is a product of his hosed up family and upbringing. Ascians are genodical, but they are driven by the loss of their whole world. That's why WoL shares 'depressed flowers' moment with Hermes. He might have doomed universe, but even Meteion despite destroying countless civilizations was still worth of WoL's help. My point is that Hermes is as contemptible as Valens or Asahi and inflicting trying to cause a universal apocalypse because he couldn't resolve his depression is disgusting beyond belief, like it took Emet Selch a mind shattering tragedy on an unimaginable scale to put him on his path, the Final Days is basically just Hermes' pity party
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May 4, 2022 22:09
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Lore already stated Sharlayan was founded in the Sixth Era after the War of the Magi so it would have had to be a relatively recent project by Elidibus. And also the Forum working with the guy who literally announced he wanted everyone to die and was causing unprecedented chaos even by Ascian standards would have made them straight up villains. Would make more sense that they had worked with the Ascians/Elidibus and didn't think Fandaniel was bringing the Final Days because the Ascians had explained that to them. But that's not the direction they went in, anyways. I mean nothing preventing the in game lore from being wrong/a lie. Like after every calamity they have a new origin story. And yes they would've been working with Fandaniel under the assumption that he was still serving the Convocation. Showing what he's actually doing would be part of getting them on our side. But yeah, it ultimately doesn't matter.
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May 4, 2022 22:12
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I also think it's perhaps relevant that fighting Meteion is not textually framed as killing a great evil. It's framed as saving her from the Endsinger, and the post credits sequence seems to indicate that at least "our" Meteion is still alive. Endwalker is less about killing and judgment than it is about empathy and connection...through the occasional exercise of kickin' rad violence.
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May 4, 2022 22:13
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No Dignity posted:My point is that Hermes is as contemptible as Valens or Asahi and inflicting trying to cause a universal apocalypse because he couldn't resolve his depression is disgusting beyond belief, like it took Emet Selch a mind shattering tragedy on an unimaginable scale to put him on his path, the Final Days is basically just Hermes' pity party
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May 4, 2022 22:17
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Grynewaht not worthy of empathy or understanding? He's a doofy blowhard of a Garlean conscript that's like...20 years old or so, if I remember the Encyclopedia Eorzea correctly. He may take boastful joy in being a semi-important soldier and he serves under assholes but he's just as much a product of the whole messed-up Garlean system as anyone else more immediately sympathetic. And then he fucks up too many times and his superiors turn him into a weird chainsaw cyborg hypertuned monster. I don't think he deserved that.
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May 4, 2022 22:18
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FeatherFloat posted:Grynewaht not worthy of empathy or understanding? He's a doofy blowhard of a Garlean conscript that's like...20 years old or so, if I remember the Encyclopedia Eorzea correctly. He may take boastful joy in being a semi-important soldier and he serves under assholes but he's just as much a product of the whole messed-up Garlean system as anyone else more immediately sympathetic. And then he fucks up too many times and his superiors turn him into a weird chainsaw cyborg hypertuned monster. I don't think he deserved that.
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May 4, 2022 22:20
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Yeah, the only characters that the game doesn't really attempt to redeem are Asahi, Teledeji, Valens and more minor villains like the Bibliophile leader from AST who is also pretty much the reason behind everything that sucks about Sharlayan and gets scot free besides having to help with the spaceship. This game is big on redemption and understanding, even Ilberd gets a bit of that with his wish to free Ala Migho (even if literally everything else he does is terrible)
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May 4, 2022 22:22
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Dwesa posted:Oh I know, but I think in-game he was potrayed mostly as a violent idiot. Well it is a bit of a leap from your garden-variety violent idiot and whatever hosed up stuff Valens had going on, I'd think  He's in a different category of bad guy, in my mind.
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May 4, 2022 22:22
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FeatherFloat posted:Grynewaht not worthy of empathy or understanding? He's a doofy blowhard of a Garlean conscript that's like...20 years old or so, if I remember the Encyclopedia Eorzea correctly. He may take boastful joy in being a semi-important soldier and he serves under assholes but he's just as much a product of the whole messed-up Garlean system as anyone else more immediately sympathetic. And then he fucks up too many times and his superiors turn him into a weird chainsaw cyborg hypertuned monster. I don't think he deserved that. It's like kicking the worlds stupidest puppy. It isn't his fault he's an idiot, why do the Garleans keep sending their dumbest man to kill me?
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May 4, 2022 22:25
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Dwesa posted:Although from his (and Meteion's) point of view (and at least initially), life in universe was already dead because it destroyed itself or was really eager to destroy itself. I understand the plot of the game, I just did not find that a sympathetic motivation in the slightest. And his response is 'okay guess I better just get everyone killed now because I can't see any worth in their lives', it's a completely self-absorbed and selfish course of action from a man brooding in his ivory tower and giving himself doomer-style brainworms
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May 4, 2022 22:26
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sweet geek swag posted:It's like kicking the worlds stupidest puppy. It isn't his fault he's an idiot, why do the Garleans keep sending their dumbest man to kill me? Seriously, by the time he was showing up on the Steppe with the threat of Bad Things hanging over his head if he failed, I was shouting at my screen "Just walk away, man! Don't make me have to kick your rear end! I really don't want to!"
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May 4, 2022 22:27
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No Dignity posted:The Warrior of Light will kill three giant snakes to make some perfume for a lady to go on a date or whatever, the only difference between that and what Hythlo does seems to be that you think the WoL respects the animals as they kill them or something, but they're basically the same acts There's a huge difference in attitude between killing with the power to make and unmake life at will, and killing as a normal boring mortal. It is the center of every fable about "playing God" in science fiction. You have free, infinite do-overs (kind of a branch off my time travel points from earlier) and can just remake the butterfly/cow/dragon when you're done with it. There's no consequence to it. Not even "I killed the bull for beef so now I need to raise a new bull." lol just magic up a new bull tomorrow. Maybe give it wings lmao why not? It's a bit weird you don't see the difference.
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May 4, 2022 22:30
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Yeah, the only characters that the game doesn't really attempt to redeem are Asahi, Teledeji, Valens and more minor villains like the Bibliophile leader from AST who is also pretty much the reason behind everything that sucks about Sharlayan and gets scot free besides having to help with the spaceship. This game is big on redemption and understanding, even Ilberd gets a bit of that with his wish to free Ala Migho (even if literally everything else he does is terrible) Yeah, most of my problems with this game are trying to understand why some villains get "You've done bad things and hurt people but you're still a person worthy of respect so we shouldn't punish you" and others get "You've done bad things and hurt people, but you're still a person worthy of respect, so hopefully you can turn your life around after you've finished your punishment'.
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May 4, 2022 22:32
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Hellioning posted:Yeah, most of my problems with this game are trying to understand why some villains get "You've done bad things and hurt people but you're still a person worthy of respect so we shouldn't punish you" and others get "You've done bad things and hurt people, but you're still a person worthy of respect, so hopefully you can turn your life around after you've finished your punishment'. Once someone is willing to make restitution, the actual systems of justice seem fairly reasonable in any of the good-aligned cultures. Probably because maintaining large prisons is actually very difficult at its social level of complexity and population. Malefactors get killed in their apprehension, or punished and made to do restitution and then that seems to be that. Exile is also, notably, an option. Doma's desire for Yotsuyu to suffer and die is more a reflection both of Doman norms and Yotsuyu's own extreme crimes and lack of repentance. (Doma also seems to be oddly punitive, given the movement to literally murder returned conscripts got actually quite a following. So does Ishgard. And this is seen as a problem in both societies.) Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 22:41 on May 4, 2022 |
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May 4, 2022 22:39
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