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From an experience perspective, I’ve had much better luck with Flatpak. Snapd also mysteriously uses non-trivial amounts of cpu which makes my laptop sad do I just purge it and use flatpak.
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May 4, 2022 21:15
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I have an application that I'm building for windows/debian/ubuntu/fedora/docker image (debian/ubuntu may be superfluous but whatever) and I looked briefly on what would it take to build for flatpak. I gave up after 30 minutes or so of staring at the docs. Compare that to systemd where in 5 minutes I had my first ever service file written and running and working as expected. I may give it a try at some point in the future again, but ... f that poo poo. I'd rather just add distros to the build list, it's most likely a lot easier. That's from a development perspective. As a user ... meh, if an app is only available on flatpak and it works in there, i don't care really.
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May 4, 2022 23:04
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Welp, after reading this I feel like I understand nothing.
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May 4, 2022 23:14
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ExcessBLarg! posted:Part of the argument for Flatpak is that since runtimes are available for all major distributions, you can target Flatpak for distribution and "run everywhere". The problem is that it's not just Flatpak, you also have Canonical shoving Snap in the popularity contest, and I guess there's also AppImage. So realistically, if most out-of-distribution desktop applications were targeting two Linux platforms for release (latest Fedora/RH, latest Ubuntu) then the fundamental situation is still the same--you still have to target more than one delivery platform. Absolutely Flatpak, Snap and AppImage (gonna call them AppRunners) hurt each other solving the same problem at the same time. I'm not sure I agree with the distro / platform arguments though? You could just release on one of the AppRunners, in fact that's what some major companies are doing. The problem with different distros and native package managers all with wildly different packages available and package versions available is precisely that its difficult maintain applications in that environment, saying nothing of licensing issues. I don't think you can comfortably argue "There is benefit to not having to provide updates packages in sync with distribution releases though, or having to support multiple versions of the same distribution at once.", its a lot of work maintaining and testing all of that across all the different distros. The biggest problem with AppRunners is, IMO, the fractured community and I don't think its a solvable problem. I think flatpak is probably gonna win out even though I like AppImage more and Snap seems to have more "official" 3rd party support (they have to be giving incentives or negotiating to contract it themselves).
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May 4, 2022 23:24
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Flatpak? More like crapsack
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May 4, 2022 23:26
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The only place I've used flatpak is on my Chromebook and I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing with it.
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May 4, 2022 23:52
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Mr. Crow posted:i don't think you can comfortably argue "There is benefit to not having to provide updates packages in sync with distribution releases though, or having to support multiple versions of the same distribution at once.", its a lot of work maintaining and testing all of that across all the different distros. My point is that the argument "you only have to build for Flatpak, not N distributions!" is misleading because vendors are going from (realistically) supporting two distributions to supporting both Flatpak and Snap. So from a numbers perspective it's a wash. But there may be other benefits. Or issues. I don't really know.
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May 5, 2022 00:28
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Welp, after reading this I feel like I understand nothing. Huh. I think I get what he's talking about, but there are so many moving parts involved that I effectively know nothing about that I can't contribute anything beyond nodding and hoping someone else tests how it works out in practice.
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May 5, 2022 00:39
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ExcessBLarg! posted:You mean folks offering Flatpaks still have to QA/test across different distributions and versions? If were just counting popular desktops there's at least arch, fedora, Debian/Ubuntu and OpenSUSE.... In any event I was mostly arguing the hot take repackaging glibc and mesa somehow makes it a failed project. You can (and as far as I can tell they do) just mirror it and automate it, your not losing anything and it would be no different than recompiling it with whatever flags you wanted. Use whatever floats your boat.
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May 5, 2022 01:04
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ExcessBLarg! posted:What's the fundamental difference between compiling an application for Flatpak and Snap distribution, vs. compiling the same application for Fedora and Ubuntu packages? Flatpak doesn't upgrade the root system, it runs the app against whatever mess of libraries are in the pack. So you can compile against whatever runtime and ensure users can run the program even if the host system has incompatible dependencies and can't be updated. Really convenient when you think about it in context of just a single app. Really awful when you think about it at scale: every app comes with a load of libraries (possibly huge), and running them can have a big memory overhead. ExcessBLarg! posted:But there may be other benefits. Or issues. I don't really know. I dunno, but it seems to me like the main point of flatpak is to make an easy, 1-click install & run of apps for end users that is separate from, and avoids the problem of, the distro/repo system.
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May 5, 2022 01:22
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Klyith posted:Flatpak doesn't upgrade the root system, it runs the app against whatever mess of libraries are in the pack. So you can compile against whatever runtime and ensure users can run the program even if the host system has incompatible dependencies and can't be updated. Not really if a significant number of apps on the system are flatpaks then they share the same runtimes. Meaning you might have 3 apps all using the same runtime with no duplication. If you have apps using different versions of the same runtime, sure it'll also install multiple versions of that same runtime, but like, you kinda want that. I mean you want it using the runtime it was built for, not a later (or earlier) one that may or may not work and wasn't tested against.
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May 5, 2022 01:35
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Nitrousoxide posted:Not really if a significant number of apps on the system are flatpaks then they share the same runtimes. Meaning you might have 3 apps all using the same runtime with no duplication. So for well-maintained, fully open software that gets updated regularly to current versions of runtimes, it's very easy. But that's also the category of stuff that's easy for the normal distro system. My question would be, why does anyone need to run the flatpack version of 90% of the stuff on flathub? Also the no duplication is sometimes questionable: https://ludocode.com/blog/flatpak-is-not-the-future posted:Flatpak allows anyone to define their own runtimes. freedesktop.org publishes some Flatpak runtimes for common use, but these aren’t necessarily the ones apps are using. For example Fedora publishes apps with its own runtimes, and these are the ones available by default in its Software store. Nitrousoxide posted:If you have apps using different versions of the same runtime, sure it'll also install multiple versions of that same runtime, but like, you kinda want that. I mean you want it using the runtime it was built for, not a later (or earlier) one that may or may not work and wasn't tested against. This OTOH is the big deal. But flatpak seems to be getting promoted as much more than "now you can run obsolete software that needs X-obscure-lib v0.6.9 and not gently caress up the rest of your OS". As I say, I dunno. I'm not against it! But I do think "why run the flatpak of X instead of your distro's?" is a good question.
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May 5, 2022 04:08
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I use a big package manager with my wife
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May 5, 2022 04:12
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Klyith posted:As I say, I dunno. I'm not against it! But I do think "why run the flatpak of X instead of your distro's?" is a good question. Long-term I get the impression that Canonical wants to move to Snaps for everything not needed to bootstrap snapd, but I'm not sure their current enterprise customers (specifically those paying for ESM support) are all that interested. ExcessBLarg! fucked around with this message at 04:59 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 04:55
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NihilCredo posted:I have had Silverblue, an Nvidia card, and Flatpak Steam for a few months now, and I run `flatpak upgrade -y && rpm-ostree upgrade` automatically every day. Yeah, I want to eventually and probably could now move to Silverblue. I use Fedora IoT for my little Pi projects, which is also ostree based, so I have a taste of working with that. And I already do use Toolbx for some dev stuff, sometimes I'd have to spin up (very) old runtimes and such, I'd just have to smooth out the edges if I'm using it for everything.
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May 5, 2022 06:32
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I'd never advocate against having stuff available as system packages, or choosing to use them. Blessed are the packagers. But the value of flatpaks is pretty apparent to me? You get the latest or arbitrary versions of every app on any distro, that can be safely atomically updated, and runs somewhat sandboxed. And the 'costs' of using it (a couple extra gigs of disk space, having to trust the developer/packager directly without your distro as middleman) not that big of a deal in practice? That's just how I look at it. e: vvv sorry not a KDE head Chilled Milk fucked around with this message at 06:54 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 06:52
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This got lost in the flatpak/snap slapfight, I'm still at a loss:Tad Naff posted:My KDE desktop on Fedora 35 has stopped showing background processes in the system tray (mostly I miss Zoom and Synergy being there). What did I do?
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May 5, 2022 06:52
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Tad Naff posted:This got lost in the flatpak/snap slapfight, I'm still at a loss: Probably deleted the widget, should be able to right click the bar, go into edit mode and fix it
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May 5, 2022 07:42
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I took one look at flatpak and ran screaming back to Gentoo
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May 5, 2022 07:45
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Computer viking posted:Huh. I think I get what he's talking about, but there are so many moving parts involved that I effectively know nothing about that I can't contribute anything beyond nodding and hoping someone else tests how it works out in practice.
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May 5, 2022 10:15
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I do get the value, in certain cases sure whatever (though I don't understand why appimages aren't enough. I'm sure there's a reason though, I just don't know it.) I hate the idea of having to use any of them for any particular package though. For my case, and I imagine for a lot of people who aren't using Linux in some corporate environment, it just adds complexity instead of reduces it. Now I gotta deal with 2+ different kinds of packages, and snaps/flatpacks at least perform worse than appimages/native packages, so why would I ever want that? Why do I want my browser to have to come in some other weird format? Everything works really well for me as is! But that's just what I'd think if someone really tried to convince me to use snaps or something, because as it is now I just use Debian and don't use any snaps or flatpacks, no problem for me there.
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May 5, 2022 10:53
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Tad Naff posted:This got lost in the flatpak/snap slapfight, I'm still at a loss: 2 possibilities, either you accidentally removed system tray from the panel, you can right click -> edit panel -> add widget -> search for system tray or, icons are just hidden. if you go into system tray settings you can check which ones show up in the entries tab
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May 5, 2022 11:12
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Huh, seems like CUDA might work on FreeBSD on the New Feature Branch of 495.29.05+, or maybe 510-series. I may have to test this on my workstation. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 11:35 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 11:31
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Yeah, that's basically what I'm experiencing too - but despite not being a programmer, I think it's fun to be a fly on the wall and try to understand it all, which usually for me involves a lot of manual pages in section 9, and some source code. no programmer has any understanding of man sections and just pipe greps everything what even is 9
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May 5, 2022 11:58
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homercles posted:no programmer has any understanding of man sections and just pipe greps everything Has nobody ever told you about whatis intro? 
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May 5, 2022 12:38
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Maybe you should read the man page on interpreting jokes
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May 5, 2022 13:01
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xzzy posted:Maybe you should read the man page on interpreting jokes
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May 5, 2022 13:03
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1fun of course.
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May 5, 2022 13:07
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Was really getting stressed out about this NFSv4 configuration deal but after like 2 days it's working.
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May 5, 2022 13:21
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Bob Morales posted:Was really getting stressed out about this NFSv4 configuration deal but after like 2 days it's working.
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May 5, 2022 14:08
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Klyith posted:So for well-maintained, fully open software that gets updated regularly to current versions of runtimes, it's very easy. But that's also the category of stuff that's easy for the normal distro system. My question would be, why does anyone need to run the flatpack version of 90% of the stuff on flathub? Flatpaks work more or less regardless of what distro you're on. Provided your OS has the various hooks needed to integrate into the rest of the user experience (obviously a distro with no window manager isn't going to magically start displaying gui elements from an app). They also atomically update, which is important for immutable systems like Silverblue (or even Fedora Workstation with its offline updates) as they can happily update without making GBS threads up some running process on the computer that was in the middle of writing/reading from the files its using.
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May 5, 2022 14:30
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Too bad you can't have NFSv4 ACLs. Here's what we're eventually trying to get at: Our Linux users are using NFS shares on an EMC Isilon with NIS. They also can access their home dir on their Windows machines. Security team says hey you guys need to use NFSv4 it has encryption (krb5p) and you can authorize using AD. That part seems to work just fine. Now the want is for it to be possible to use Active Directory groups for permissions on that system. This would satisify requirements to allow access to the 'crown jewel' company data. Is this possible? Wouldn't it make more sense to just mount those shares in Linux using samba and get all the Windows stuff for free? I don't really know much about this but hammering all the windows/ad stuff onto NFS seems more complicated than just using samba. The next issue would be what is the best way to handle mounting all the users homes using samba or is that a bad idea? They are just autofs on nfs share right now.
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May 5, 2022 15:17
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Bob Morales posted:Here's what we're eventually trying to get at: NFSv4(.1) ACLs have the advantage that they're fully compatible with SMB/Windows ACLs sharing, so you can do NFS and SMB (via Samba) of the same data to both Unix-like systems as well as Windows (and macOS can use either). Technically speaking, krb5p doesn't need NFSv4 at all and works fine with NFSv2 and v3, but the advantage of NFSv4 is that it's much easier to deal with when you've got NAT or any form of firewalling because you're also dealing with remote access - because the entire point of v4 is to move everything (including locking and RPC) into one data stream on one TCP port, which has been a long time coming. Active Directory via Samba (not necessarily using Samba for SMB) should be possible to do by replacing NIS with LDAP, but the problem is that active directory requires NFSv4 ACLs because Microsoft very explicitly joined the effort to make sure NFSv4 ACL is also compatible with their ACLs. So we're in a situation where Linux is the only OS out of Windows, macOS, Linux, FreeBSD, and Illumos-derived ones which doesn't support NFSv4 ACLs, as RichACL was never integrated, nor were the tools, and unfortunately the work dates back to 2010 and the person responsible has since lost all interest. So it's entirely possible that it'll be simpler for you to buy a Windows license and use Microsofts own AD implementation as well as group policies distributed via Active Directory, as everything I've heard from people I trust in this area suggests that Samba is still as much of a mess as it ever was, but I don't know whether that's an option. If it isn't, I'm not sure I can give much advice - I've run NFS-only shops for the past decade before I got sick, and I run NFSv4-only here at home. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 17:18 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 17:15
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:I'm not surprised to hear that NIS is still being used, but I can't imagine how well it integrates with Windows - which itself is in a weird state, because it supports NFSv4 including the ACLs on the server-side, but the client built into Windows doesn't support it yet (obviously Microsoft has some internal codebase for testing, but it hasn't made it into a client version of Windows yet). Interesting
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May 5, 2022 19:48
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Truga posted:2 possibilities, either you accidentally removed system tray from the panel, you can right click -> edit panel -> add widget -> search for system tray Third possibility: the Qt people have gone on a jihad against XEmbed ( https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=122722 ). So I just switched back to XFCE since none of the faffs posted seem to work. I want to like and use KDE, I really do, but they keep breaking poo poo without offering fixes.
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May 6, 2022 21:17
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Maybe an esoteric question here but maybe someone knows about some gotchas off the top of their head? USB-related stuff. I had a wireless mouse that I used on two neighboring computers, just moving the dongle when I needed to switch stations. I had to replace that mouse recently and I went with a Logitech G903 which supports wireless power, so I thought hey why not -- picked up a charging mat for that, which also doubles as a wireless dongle. That goes on the primary computer, and I can use the "normal" dongle on the other. What didn't occur to me is that the mat doesn't have any sort of on/off switch, and it would be really awkward/abusive to have to unplug the whole mat each time I want to switch (to make the mouse flip over to the other dongle). What seems to work is to unbind the USB device for the mat, e.g. quote:sudo sh -c 'echo 8-1 > /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/unbind' And then if I want to get it back: quote:sudo sh -c 'echo 8-1 > /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind' I suppose I can set up some key shortcuts to trigger those. But this is not something I've ever done before... I'm curious if there are lurking reasons to not do this (or some alternate solution).
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May 11, 2022 20:22
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JLaw posted:I suppose I can set up some key shortcuts to trigger those. From the hardware side it should be fine. (I don't know enough about the OS side to say anything, but I can't imagine why it would be a problem.) I'd hate that method myself just for the practical reasons -- switching PCs is a two step process with both your hotkey *and* a plug/unplug step, since the dongle probably still has to be unplugged to get the mouse to jump back to the pad. But I guess it depends how often you're doing it. JLaw posted:(or some alternate solution). A real KVM? (Or, if you don't need the V part of a KVM, USB switchers are like $20.) Or software-KVM: Barrier works on linux if you use X11, but not in wayland.
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May 11, 2022 20:53
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Klyith posted:I'd hate that method myself just for the practical reasons -- switching PCs is a two step process with both your hotkey *and* a plug/unplug step, since the dongle probably still has to be unplugged to get the mouse to jump back to the pad. But I guess it depends how often you're doing it. The other computer tends to be off when I'm not using it, so I think it'll be OK. I'm actually going to have my hotkey do "unbind, sleep, bind" to just interrupt the mat long enough to jump to the other dongle... then I'll turn the other computer off when I'm done and it will jump back to the mat. We'll see how it goes! If not then yeah maybe a hardware USB switcher.
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May 11, 2022 21:32
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Nvidia is starting to provide open source kernel modules Production-ready for datacenter GPUs, "alpha quality" for desktop GPUs. Needs a Turing or newer GPU. Kassad fucked around with this message at 22:27 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 22:19
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Kassad posted:Nvidia is starting to provide open source kernel modules Userspace is still proprietary, sadly, but this is huge. Going to be great if in a couple of years using an nvidia card is as seamless and well supported as an amd card out of the box! e: a nice post about this: https://blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/2022/05/11/why-is-the-open-source-driver-release-from-nvidia-so-important-for-linux/ kujeger fucked around with this message at 22:36 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 22:31
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