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I still love TWI, I just didn't enjoy the ending(ie the last 200k words(lol)) of book 8. Pirateaba has gone though sections of boring story before, and then come back with amazing stuff(I honestly miss all the liscor election stuff because it was hilarious and fun), so I hope a bit of time off and some perspective, and of course Erin being back will help. Edit: Also I will say that the majority of the drakes are acting as worse and worse jerks as time goes on and I'm wondering when it is going to bite their collective species in the butt. Peachfart fucked around with this message at 00:05 on May 7, 2022 |
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May 7, 2022 00:03
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Looks like the author behind Soulmonger decided to chuck in the towel with it because it wasn't popular enough. Peachfart posted:I still love TWI, I just didn't enjoy the ending(ie the last 200k words(lol)) of book 8. Arguably it just did. Chaldion especially needs a kicking.
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May 7, 2022 00:26
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I put TWI down years ago because it felt like the story wasn't advancing, it was just yet another character's perspective on whatever. And there were so many characters that in the end it felt like starting up a new damned serial every time - just something I'm really not in the mood for. Maybe if it gets published and edited down someday I'll read it but I'm just not that into the ultra-long form meander stuff.
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May 7, 2022 00:32
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tithin posted:Looks like the author behind Soulmonger decided to chuck in the towel with it because it wasn't popular enough. F
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May 7, 2022 01:57
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yeah it kinda struggled to find its feet a little, i quite enjoyed it but i get the impression the author just didnt enjoy writing it, like he had a good idea for the story, but no idea how to implement it in some ways it sort of reminds me a little of pact, but without the overwhelming sense of hostility
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May 7, 2022 03:54
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tithin posted:yeah it kinda struggled to find its feet a little, i quite enjoyed it but i get the impression the author just didnt enjoy writing it, like he had a good idea for the story, but no idea how to implement it Kind of common theme for his writing tbh, I hope he gets his poo poo squared away because he's very creative and I like all of his stories.
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May 7, 2022 05:45
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Eopia posted:Everyone keeps singing TWI's praises but I see things like it having ten million words or a single chapter being almost 70k words long and can only see it as too daunting to read. It also implies to me that most of those words are filler, and the actual meat of the story must be much smaller. I would at least give it a try for the first few books. As Jazerus says, I don't think it has filler in the sense of "nothing happening." Even if I don't enjoy it myself, Wandering Inn is still enough of its own thing that I think everyone should at least give it a try. My main issue is that, while stuff happens, I get a distinctly "aimless" feeling from it all. This can still work if the author has an extremely good understanding of all the characters and "moving pieces" and can make them interact in ways that are compelling (to an extent where you can convince yourself that you're just "witnessing the events of a world"). For example, Forge/Threads of Destiny, with reader choice as part of its story, doesn't have a clear narrative planned out from the beginning. But the author obviously has a strong understanding of the broader setting and is very good at ensuring that characters behave in ways consistent with their nature and circumstances, in a way where I can essentially "buy into" the setting. With Wandering Inn, it feels a lot more like it's being written "on the fly" so to speak. Characters/events/ideas are introduced, but in a way that doesn't feel as well thought-out. Just like someone thinking of "stuff that would be neat" and throwing it into the story cauldron. Actually, I think I may have come up with a good way to illustrate this. I'll use PracGuide as a counter-example (which I basically consider the gold standard of the web serial format, and the setting and cast also significantly expand over the course of that series). In just a few paragraphs, someone could easily summarize the main events of the story to someone else who has only read Book 1 of PracGuide, and it would probably be fully comprehensible. The fundamental nature of the setting is established early and remains consistent, even if new nations and characters are introduced. But someone who read the first couple Books of Wandering Inn and then looked at later chapters would just be completely lost, and I don't think someone could reasonably explain to them how things reached that point. It's a lot more of a "narrative sandbox" of sorts. Whether or not this bothers you is basically a personal thing; some people can enjoy just having a large cast interacting and aren't bothered by the stuff that bugs me. (I put too much thought into this mainly because my opinion about Wandering Inn seems to conflict with that of people who otherwise seem to have similar taste, so I've thought a lot about "why can't I enjoy this?"; I really wish I could enjoy the web serial that puts out such a massive amount of content, especially now that one of my mainstays recently ended) Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 06:40 on May 7, 2022 |
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May 7, 2022 06:36
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i think you're correct about the "on the fly" nature of TWI, but only for the middle volumes. there is definitely a very strong sense that a world which was, in pirateaba's imagination, originally rather tiny - liscor and its environs being the only parts fully thought-out before they started to write the story - is suddenly growing by leaps and bounds as more and more aspects of it are, well, created and conveyed to the reader. but, the expansion of viewpoints and creation of major world details does eventually plateau out; the story is written within the world as established now, and has been for quite a while, although there are still corners of the world that haven't been explored very much, some of the drake cities and terandrian countries and such
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May 7, 2022 07:07
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It's easy to get tired because reading TWI and tracking all the characters and world details is about as hard as plotting out a simple story of your own and writing it is. Also, things happening forever means no endings, not even a middle of the series book ending, no real solid ending to character chapters that would make you feel a story is complete... unless they die you keep going, and even after death we get character development... When you think a character or story is solved something happens to drag it back to conflict, sometimes undoing or trivializing what felt real before it. The expanding slots of PoVs means you will every so often read a character who maybe has a cool story but feels less interesting, and suddenly you get 4-5 chapters of them every so often interrupting the effort put into building up a situation across the world... and the same sort of villains with the same sort of motivations over and over... I'm taking a long, long break from TWI, I have a note where I stopped, and I'll pick it up when I know there's a chance it's going to finish before I catch up so I can see some of the endless rows of nails get hammered in.
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May 7, 2022 07:12
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"Give it a try for the first few books" is a hell of a bit of advice considering how long they are. That's over 1.4m words. The entire Harry Potter series is only like 1.1m. Mother of Learning is 800k. 1.4m is like ten regular sized fantasy novels. I've given similar advice for Cradle, except that it's "first few books" don't quite break the 300k mark, combined.
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May 7, 2022 08:08
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If you don't like slice of life you'll never enjoy TWI, no matter how good the action can be. It applies that ponderous, meandering structure and pacing to every part of itself.
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May 7, 2022 08:21
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Cicero posted:"Give it a try for the first few books" is a hell of a bit of advice considering how long they are. That's over 1.4m words. The entire Harry Potter series is only like 1.1m. Mother of Learning is 800k. 1.4m is like ten regular sized fantasy novels. yeah, and cradle feels rushed to me. constantly bouncing from place to place and plot point to plot point with no chance to really sink into the world. i like it all the same, but it could be better with a few more words - which is probably similar to feeling that TWI would be better with fewer words. a matter of taste
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May 7, 2022 08:27
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TWI is much much better than Cradle, as well.
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May 7, 2022 08:32
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Yeah but TWI doesn't only "get good" after that, it's good from the start (and honestly, goes by really quickly) if what you enjoy most are distinct character voices interacting in fun ways and you don't need very polished prose. A lot of interesting things do happen after those volumes, and those tend to be the reason why people recommend the books so much, but if you were already enjoying the first book then reading a few more isn't a chore--at least, up until you decide that the frequent shifts in POVs are too much. By the time the POV jumps get egregious, you'll know whether or not its style is for you, and if it isn't, I'd only recommend going further from there if you're really interested in what people were describing on the previous page.
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May 7, 2022 08:32
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The point of it is to hang out with the characters you like and have a good time. Or a sad or awful time. My only real problems with it is that the first volume or two spends too long establishing some stuff (hello flos) when they should have bounced around between characters more often.
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May 7, 2022 08:51
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I tried TWI, but I bounced off the writing style really hard. It was just so wordy, and there were so many sentences that didn’t add anything. I can deal with a slow pace, a meandering plot, or even mediocre prose, but when every chapter could be half as long without losing anything, it’s exhausting. I dropped it after a dozen chapters, though, so maybe this improves later.
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May 7, 2022 09:05
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I’m really enjoying “The Shadows Become Her.” So far it’s very slice of life. Little rich girl’s family is taken/imprisoned/killed because their country has turned against their ethnic minority. She ends up in a training academy for future mage-assassin types in a rival nation at the age of seven and since they have a very oddly hands-off approach to child education, the story so far is her and her friends running around largely unsupervised and having hijinks.
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May 7, 2022 09:20
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Larry Parrish posted:If you don't like slice of life you'll never enjoy TWI, no matter how good the action can be. It applies that ponderous, meandering structure and pacing to every part of itself. Peachfart posted:TWI is much much better than Cradle, as well. nrook posted:I tried TWI, but I bounced off the writing style really hard. It was just so wordy, and there were so many sentences that didn’t add anything. I can deal with a slow pace, a meandering plot, or even mediocre prose, but when every chapter could be half as long without losing anything, it’s exhausting. Jazerus posted:yeah, and cradle feels rushed to me. constantly bouncing from place to place and plot point to plot point with no chance to really sink into the world. i like it all the same, but it could be better with a few more words - which is probably similar to feeling that TWI would be better with fewer words. a matter of taste But I do think TWI is a much bigger offender here, in terms of just how far it deviates from a reasonable pace. If Cradle was as fast as TWI is slow, every book would be 5 chapters long. Cicero fucked around with this message at 10:16 on May 7, 2022 |
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May 7, 2022 10:05
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nrook posted:I tried TWI, but I bounced off the writing style really hard. It was just so wordy, and there were so many sentences that didn’t add anything. I can deal with a slow pace, a meandering plot, or even mediocre prose, but when every chapter could be half as long without losing anything, it’s exhausting. The first chapters are kinda garbage, yeah. It gets better.
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May 7, 2022 10:10
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You get a lot of people conflating TWI being slow with it being slice of life. These aren't the same thing. On average, yes, slice of life stories tend to be slower, but they don't have to be. Legends & Lattes is positively brisk.
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May 7, 2022 10:17
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it's both op.
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May 7, 2022 10:19
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nrook posted:I tried TWI, but I bounced off the writing style really hard. It was just so wordy, and there were so many sentences that didn’t add anything. I can deal with a slow pace, a meandering plot, or even mediocre prose, but when every chapter could be half as long without losing anything, it’s exhausting. I had the same experience. I never understand the constant praise for the author for writing such a massive volume of words when they take so long to say so little. Kind of glad I bounced off it too given how much reading time it requires. Although I guess if I had loved it then the massive wordcount would have been a bonus!
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May 7, 2022 10:24
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Lot 49 posted:I had the same experience. I never understand the constant praise for the author for writing such a massive volume of words when they take so long to say so little. But yeah I think the defense of the pacing is weird. If TWI had half the words it'd be much stronger for it.
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May 7, 2022 10:26
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I wouldn't be averse to an abridged version coming out, but I definitely think the full version would be the definitive version. I also watched the MGS games in film mode and think the ROTK film could have stood to have a longer epilogue so I honestly think this is a matter of taste--not a "defense of the pacing", but more like "this pacing really really works for me". Which is pacing that I can understand wouldn't work for everyone and in fact probably only works for a minority.
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May 7, 2022 10:31
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Cicero posted:It has (a lot of) fun characters and fun stuff happening. Occasionally some real tear jerker moments too. You can tell the author is really putting their heart into it. I got into TWI at a time when I had a broken arm and generally not much going on, and I'm a pretty fast reader. It's a constant frustration for me to be enjoying a book and then having it end, from my perspective, super fast. TWI, in that sense, is tailor made for me, as someone who is entirely willing to shovel down giant piles of words at high speeds. Sure, something like Cradle is more technically competent and tightly plotted, but there's just so little of it. It's like the difference between a fancy restaurants artfully plated tiny bite of food and some cheap all you can eat buffet, yeah, the fancy restaurants stuff is better, but sometimes you just really crave volume. You do need to be content with just sort of... Reading it as it comes, I guess? TWI is very much a journey over destination story, probably because I doubt it HAD destination in mind for the first 5 volumes or so. More of a true serial than a web novel, I guess. In other news due to really enjoying TUTBAD I went back and tried Worth The Candle again and man. I'm pretty sure I'm saying nothing new with this statement but this poo poo's loving weird. The pacing is weird, the characters are weird, there's a lot of in-depth thinking about stats and optimization at parts, followed by the characters generally concluding it's probably pretty arbitrary nonsense... And some of the plotlines are just completely bizarre in some uncomfortable ways, but it also feels like them being uncomfortable is entirely the point, which does not entirely mitigate the first point. I feel like it's a story that has its heart in roughly the right place, but it only knows where to put that heart from a half-remembered picture it saw once on the internet, and the picture was kinda blurry and crooked.
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May 7, 2022 10:58
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Oh yeah, Worth the Candle is weird as hell. It's the author -- a huge tabletop nerd and ratfic enthusiast -- dealing with his own trauma while simultaneously going no holds barred on world building and it shows. That's why I love it, but much like TWI it's definitely Not For Everyone (probably even moreso, honestly).
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May 7, 2022 11:03
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The ending of 8 had some real Avengers: Infinity War energy with all the characters making their 30 second cameos, except it's pirateaba so it's more like 5,000 words.nrook posted:I tried TWI, but I bounced off the writing style really hard. It was just so wordy, and there were so many sentences that didn’t add anything. I can deal with a slow pace, a meandering plot, or even mediocre prose, but when every chapter could be half as long without losing anything, it’s exhausting. It doesn't, even now. The overall word count could be reduced by more than half without affecting what happens, the characters, or the setting, at all.
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May 7, 2022 15:31
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I'm pretty sure a few people in here recommended Double Blind and while I enjoy it, I feel like a lot of the chapters are too short or not complete. I guess the author is sticking to a word count or something and just ends em when they get near their limit but the last couple of chapters felt like they would have flowed better if some were combined. Shame about Soulmonger I was enjoying it. I think the story would have been more fun if it just stuck to Earth, chapters of just recreating stuff you could do before but now can't don't really move the plot forwards. When there are plenty of chapters to read its not so bad but if your following along chapter by chapter it feels like the whole story comes to a crawl.
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May 7, 2022 16:34
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Does anyone have experience with Memories of the Fall? I had it recommended to me, and went to take a look and saw the early chapters had been rewritten, so I started with the rewritten version. The writing is fine, but it's really... obtuse I guess? That sounds too harsh for it but basically there's a thousand references to things I don't understand and it's kind of hard to follow the plot, and it occurred to me that might be a symptom of the rewrite that isn't present in the original chapters. Or maybe it's just because I go into a webserial expecting a fairly simply, straight forward story.
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May 7, 2022 16:55
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Double Blind is enjoyable but the abrupt endings do detract from it. I thought the author was trying to do the "every chapter must end on a mini cliff" web serial thing except instead of a cliff it just ends mid thought. Maybe you're on to something with the word count idea.
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May 7, 2022 17:55
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Kyoujin posted:Double Blind is enjoyable but the abrupt endings do detract from it. I thought the author was trying to do the "every chapter must end on a mini cliff" web serial thing except instead of a cliff it just ends mid thought. Maybe you're on to something with the word count idea. Yeah idk what's up with that. I don't like it.
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May 7, 2022 19:07
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Bremen posted:Does anyone have experience with Memories of the Fall? I had it recommended to me, and went to take a look and saw the early chapters had been rewritten, so I started with the rewritten version. The writing is fine, but it's really... obtuse I guess? That sounds too harsh for it but basically there's a thousand references to things I don't understand and it's kind of hard to follow the plot, and it occurred to me that might be a symptom of the rewrite that isn't present in the original chapters. Or maybe it's just because I go into a webserial expecting a fairly simply, straight forward story. RR says I read five chapters of it but I have no memory of it whatsoever. This is probably not a positive sign.
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May 7, 2022 21:38
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Bremen posted:Does anyone have experience with Memories of the Fall? I had it recommended to me, and went to take a look and saw the early chapters had been rewritten, so I started with the rewritten version. The writing is fine, but it's really... obtuse I guess? That sounds too harsh for it but basically there's a thousand references to things I don't understand and it's kind of hard to follow the plot, and it occurred to me that might be a symptom of the rewrite that isn't present in the original chapters. Or maybe it's just because I go into a webserial expecting a fairly simply, straight forward story. I've not read the rewrite yet (I'm waiting for it to be done), but no the original book one was also extremely dense. Possibly even denser- books two and three are nowhere near as frenetic.I know one of the Rith wanted to do with the rewrite was make the beginning a smoother experience for new readers and spend more time establishing the world and the characters before the plot kicks into high gear. But the million references and plot threads and characters is The Authentic MotF Experience™. It's a big, big story about a bunch of immortal assholes layering schemes over counter-schemes and trying to outplay each other across millennia. It's like a xianxia Malazan Book of the Fallen and the first book was definitely the Gardens of the Moon of that comparison. If that doesn't put you off, my advice would be not to worry too much about any term you don't recognise. My approach was to assume that anything that was actually worth remembering would be reintroduced and exposited whenever it became relevant- and that bore out basically every time IIRC.
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May 7, 2022 21:58
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Actually, lemme see if I can lay out MotF's (initial) political context for you. It'll be fun to see how much I remember. None of this should be a spoiler, but I'll tag it anyway. Let's start with some cosmology. The story starts on Eastern Azure, which is what is known as a "great world". "Great" here meaning that it is more refined and spiritually richer than a typical xianxia setting ("mortal" worlds). Basically, it's the sort of plane that your typical xianxia protagonist ascends to after they achieve immortality. That doesn't mean that it's populated entirely by immortals- it has a native population, who are born mortal and in the vast majority remain mortal for their entire (short) lives. It is however much easier to achieve immortality in this world and anyone of consequence is to expected to do so before the age of a hundred. It's so easy, in fact, that there's advice commonly given against crossing the threshold too young- achieving immortality as a hormonal idiot teen will lock you into thinking like a hormonal idiot teen for many thousands of years. Consequently, while immortals aren't everywhere, they are extremely common, and the average immortal is not particularly important. Most of them spend their days as bottom rung thugs for the real movers and shakers. Eastern Azure is one of several such worlds in the greater context of the Martial Axial Starfield, which is like... well, an arm of a galaxy in a space opera setting I guess, but swap star systems for planes and space for... interplanar space. Whatever. The current dominant political force on Eastern Azure is the Second Dun Dynasty, who are subjects of the Kong Heavenly Clan, which is one of fifty such heavenly clans who are the primary movers and shakers of the Martial Axial Starfield, subordinate only to the four queen-mothers of the cardinal directions and their courts (North Star Grotto, Vast Obscurity Grove, Turquoise Pond and, everybody's favourite, God-Slaughtering Hall), the Three Pure Ones and... any other primordial deities that might be rolling around. Prior to the Dun Dynasty, Eastern Azure was controlled by the Shan Dynasty, who were backed by the Azure Astral Authority (headquartered out of Shan Lai, another world close to Eastern Azure), and through them the Tang Heavenly Clan. The Authority remains a significant force on EA despite the fall of the Shan, though their influence is in retreat. Also relevant are the Shu Heavenly Clan, present in the form of the Shu Pavillion, and the Huang Heavenly Clan, who I think are allied with or at least usually act in concord with the Kong? And previously were at war with the Mo Heavenly Clan, who aren't particularly relevant to the story at present but have bad blood with basically everyone and a nebulous relationship to the shadowy God-Slaughtering Hall. Within Eastern Azure, the story focuses on the region of Yin Eclipse, which exists within the Dun Dynasty as a colonial periphery region, inhabited by native peoples ethnically distinct from those in the imperial core and run by a settler aristocracy focused on resource extraction to the exclusion of all else. Yin Eclipse is made economically important to the global powers of Eastern Azure by the presence of the Yin Eclipse Mountain Range, a large upland wilderness region that is thick with rare and powerful spiritual herbs, monsters and ancient ruins filled with treasure- all hugely valuable to the cultivator society that runs the universe. The catch is that the mountains are subject to extremely power realm suppression- i.e. everyone inside it is levelled down by very many rungs on the power scale- and more rungs the further up the ladder you are. Even cultivators as far above the common immortal as an immortal is above a mortal are rendered vulnerable to the extremely dangerous flora and fauna of the region. Now, the natives of Yin Eclipse traditionally practice a form of cultivation known as physical cultivation, which... well, I won't go into the specifics of here, but it's considered a flawed and incomplete method by the people of the imperial core (who practice standard spiritual cultivation), because it's extremely difficult to progress in and caps out very early- it's considered a practical impossibility to achieve immortality via physical cultivation, and few make it even as far as Mantra Seed (the Golden Core-equivalent). Despite that, it has one major virtue in the context of the Yin Eclipse: it is less affected by the realm suppression than other forms of cultivation. This makes the spiritual-cultivating imperial aristocracy dependent on the physical-cultivating natives to harvest the wealth of Yin Eclipse- and particularly on the Hunter Bureau. This is important because the Bureau was formed by the Azure Astral Authority during their period of ascendency and retains close ties to it despite the region's takeover by the Dun Dynasty. That makes the Bureau politically suspect in the eyes of the Dynasty, but its monopoly on the physical cultivators and its accumulated institutional expertise in safely and effectively harvesting the suppression zone make it too valuable to dispense with. Which leads us to, finally, the protagonists, Jun Arai and Jun Sana. Twin sisters, junior members of the Hunter Bureau with an immortal father and a dead mother, and complex relationships to all the many factions vying for influence with Yin Eclipse because of the political situation outlined above. I don't know if that was helpful, but it definitely helped me organise my thoughts. 
KOGAHAZAN!! fucked around with this message at 00:25 on May 8, 2022 |
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May 8, 2022 00:19
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That was all more or less stuff I'd managed to pick up, but thanks. At the very least it reassured me having trouble parsing what was going on wasn't the fault of the rewrite.
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May 8, 2022 02:43
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Arkendrythist Patreon spoilers. Does anyone else feel it's real bad news that the red dot mage died offscreen with no resolution to why he attacked Mesalina out of nowhere? Or how he developed such a powerful particle magic spell so soon after particle magic was introduced? Hard to imagine that doesn't come back to bite Erick in the rear end. With Erick pushing into soul magic, Nergal unexplored, and Quintalap and Rats as open threads, I think things will get nasty. At least Goldie should find out what was up with whatever rogue duplication effect was making radioactive ore and soul spears for the anti darkness fanatics.
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May 9, 2022 15:32
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Wittgen posted:Arkendrythist Patreon spoilers. it's mysterious and it would have been better if we knew how but the red dot mage is a Slayer and those guys are all insane. plus, he was a mercenary so he either got hired to wipe out the Lifebinders village or he thought it would be some sick xp. also, as you know, he was a cursed dragon and therefore also capable of Wizardry and manual magic so that's probably why he was able to make particle magic- as long as he understood what he was doing, he could do whatever he wanted. until it was fully integrated into the script it didn't need a class for script assistance, and the red dot mage should have been talented and old enough to not need the script to make magic anyway.
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May 9, 2022 18:58
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Larry Parrish posted:also, as you know, he was a cursed dragon and therefore also capable of Wizardry and manual magic so that's probably why he was able to make particle magic... What the hell you talking about? Just because you can build a core doesn't mean you're a Wizard. Or are you talking about Eric?
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May 9, 2022 19:09
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I guess the red dot could be an act of minor wizardry. it was established that anyone who can save up enough of their own personal mana can use it to accomplish minor wizardry. Really that's only dragons and wizards who can accrete, but hm. On the meta level, I hope there is more to red dot mage because it would be kind of disappointing if the mysterious archmage who glasses the farms of Spur was just some nobody dragon. Not unrealistic, but narratively a bit unsatisfying.
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May 9, 2022 19:16
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Mulozon Empuri posted:What the hell you talking about? Just because you can build a core doesn't mean you're a Wizard. Or are you talking about Eric? That's true for regular core-mages, but it's not true for dragons- they produce a poo poo ton more mana than regular people, and everyone can do low Wizardry if they're at the pinnacle of skill and mastery- which the red dot mage probably was. dragons can reach this height both faster and without dying of old age since they're immortal
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May 9, 2022 19:19
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