|
Fidel Cuckstro posted:Agreed. I agree very much with all of this. I will also throw in a slight counter to your earlier displeasure with Pike’s “hi”. Did it push the boundaries of believability in terms of a seasoned professional diplomat? Yes. But my mind kinda just accepted it because we’re still in the TOS Wild West years. It’s super jarring if compared to uber-corporate 90s Trek, but it feels okay here to me. e: though weirdly I could see Janeway beaming into space congress with a “hi”.
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 18:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 21:09 |
|
|
HD DAD posted:I agree very much with all of this. I will also throw in a slight counter to your earlier displeasure with Pike’s “hi”. Did it push the boundaries of believability in terms of a seasoned professional diplomat? Yes. But my mind kinda just accepted it because we’re still in the TOS Wild West years. It’s super jarring if compared to uber-corporate 90s Trek, but it feels okay here to me. She wouldn't beam in, but she would absolutely say it while seated on her chair and holding a cup of coffee, grinning in a sinister manner.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 18:37
|
|
|
HD DAD posted:I agree very much with all of this. I will also throw in a slight counter to your earlier displeasure with Pike’s “hi”. Did it push the boundaries of believability in terms of a seasoned professional diplomat? Yes. But my mind kinda just accepted it because we’re still in the TOS Wild West years. It’s super jarring if compared to uber-corporate 90s Trek, but it feels okay here to me. I could see Janeway doing that too, but I don't think anyone's ever said Janeway was known for her consistency 
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 18:37
|
|
|
Plotac 75 posted:"Space . . . the Shiny Frontier." Sales of the Starfleet Skirt plummet as the floors get shinier Trying to roll out the Starfleet Skant at the same time and failing, can't figure why
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 18:48
|
|
|
Anyone consider that every ship probably has a "gift shop" replimat
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 18:52
|
|
|
"Check out this Excelsior paperweight model I got on the Excelsior tour. It has a transponder certificate of authenticity. You can only get this model replicated there."
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 18:53
|
|
|
Drink-Mix Man posted:Well gee, I suppose with the whole subplot about Q doing something "nice" for Picard before he dies ... That's what I'm asking. I didn't watch it. You're not obliged to answer of course.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 18:59
|
|
|
Lizard Combatant posted:... That's what I'm asking. I didn't watch it. You're not obliged to answer of course. Ah, my apologies, thought you were being a smartass. Yeah, it turns out... well, what I said earlier. Q is dying and is trying to redeem himself before he goes, that's the gist of it.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 19:05
|
|
|
While we're on the topic of "how the SNW characters act" and likely the reason why "I want to get to know them all" I am just gonna point out some probably-inaccurate character comparisons. Can you guess who I'm comparing people to? Uhura saying "cool" is not "gently caress yeah science!" Pike saying "...hi..." is not "oh my, I'm terribly sorry for the interruption that I have just incurred upon you all here in this fine establishment, please excuse me and what I'm doing to you all, I know I seem like I'm imposing but I must insist it is terribly important that I make a case..." Chapel spunkily saying "I'm gonna mess with your genome!" is not "Yeah uhhh I'm going to mess with your genome and break down the nucleotides which, hah, it's so funny, nucleotides, that's such a funny word, you know one time when I was at a therapy session... oh wait, I'm sorry, I'm rambling again, I need to get a move on and put this needle in you so, uhh, yeah, sorry! I'm sorry! I'm bad at being quiet." Realistic, succinct, and with brevity. These are the characters in the first episode of Strange New Worlds. These are the qualities of characters I like to see, regularly, as bridge crew in Star Trek, if not most entertainment in general. I'm not saying I'm against characters devoid of quirks, mannerisms, and personal problems; I'm just saying being bombarded by quirks, mannerisms, and personal problems in entertainment gets really tiring. Also, random note: Spock says it's "fascinating" that the USS Archer only carried a crew compliment of 3 people so I really do take back that being a canon error; Spock found it fascinating. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 19:32 on May 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 19:08
|
|
|
Brawnfire posted:Anyone consider that every ship probably has a "gift shop" replimat If a dinky little Cali-class like the Cerritos has one, than any Starfleet ship should have one.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 19:17
|
|
|
they're gonna do a SNW episode about jomny sun
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 19:36
|
|
|
The awkward "hi" to me was partially because it was an unprecedented situation (these people were not ready for first contact by the standard set of rules) partially because it was pretty awkward that he was talking to the leader that was about to have him imprisoned a little while ago, and partly to just appear non-threatening rather than coming in and taking charge. It seemed fine to me, and I wouldn't expect him to act the same way in a normal, pre-arranged diplomatic summit
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 19:49
|
|
|
After Pike's big speech, during the montage, can someone explain what the deal was the paper enterprise cut outs in the candle lit room? It was weirdly like a religious ceremony or something?
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 20:23
|
|
|
Penitent posted:After Pike's big speech, during the montage, can someone explain what the deal was the paper enterprise cut outs in the candle lit room? First contact with aliens became a cultural force around the planet that impacted everything from who kids idolized, to how religions are structured. Thus, the symbol of the Enterprise took on a deeper meaning on the planet.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 20:25
|
|
|
Nichael posted:First contact with aliens became a cultural force around the planet that impacted everything from who kids idolized, to how religions are structured. Thus, the symbol of the Enterprise took on a deeper meaning on the planet. That makes more sense. I went back and watched the scene again and there is a paper cutout of an angelic figure as well, almost like they are making alien "Christmas" ornaments or something.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 20:28
|
|
|
I do wonder if they'll let SNW gradually morph into TOS.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 21:05
|
|
|
Congratulations to the Picard writers on removing everything that drew viewers into the Borg. It took a long time to make sure nobody wants to ever see them again but y’all did it. Like after the initial shock value of the Borg (robot men! Hilariously no -aerodynamic flying squares!) what made them interesting was how they desire even more harmony than the Federation but get it through some horribly nightmarish methods. They’re both an allegory and a body horror story all in one. But now being assimilated is… a gift? And Jurarti is going to find species who want to volunteer for the collective? Do they still lose individual agency beyond their identity or what? This is probably the last appearance of the Borg in the timeline, as any future appearances will probably be before this point, so what a way to go out.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 21:19
|
|
|
If they ever go beyond this point in the future I'd bet good money they'll ignore this entire thing and still have the Borg be soulless destroyers
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 21:21
|
|
|
Craptacular! posted:Congratulations to the Picard writers on removing everything that drew viewers into the Borg. It took a long time to make sure nobody wants to ever see them again but y’all did it. I don't think it removed anything about prior Borg stories because Jurati is clearly making a Borg hivemind separate from the antagonistic one, like a different nation. The bigger problem is that this is an interesting idea that is barely explored, and will be jettisoned because season three will have nothing to do with it. Charity Porno posted:If they ever go beyond this point in the future I'd bet good money they'll ignore this entire thing and still have the Borg be soulless destroyers
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 21:25
|
|
|
Drink-Mix Man posted:Ah, my apologies, thought you were being a smartass. All good! I really didn't enjoy watching what I did see enough to continue, but if a good idea managed to come out of it somewhere I don't mind hearing about it second hand at least. It does sound... muddled, from what I'm piecing together. Like the situation Q's engineered seems pretty arbitrary and there could have been a more personal way to teach Picard his lesson rather than just fixing some random change to the past that Q himself made when that change (or the solution to fixing it) doesn't seem to have anything to do with the flaw in Picard he's trying to help with. And once Picard had identified the problem in the past, why is Q then further hindering him? Did he solve it too fast? Not in the right way? Yknow? I'd love to see SNW and enjoy it (or be an insufferable smart arse about it) but I'm in the UK for work and can't be assed resorting to files on my phone.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 21:38
|
|
|
I wonder if the Jurati storyline was an attempt to explain the borg-student in the far future learning about the Boimler Effect / Greatest person in Starfleet.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 21:44
|
|
|
Lizard Combatant posted:It does sound... muddled, from what I'm piecing together. Like the situation Q's engineered seems pretty arbitrary and there could have been a more personal way to teach Picard his lesson rather than just fixing some random change to the past that Q himself made when that change (or the solution to fixing it) doesn't seem to have anything to do with the flaw in Picard he's trying to help with. And once Picard had identified the problem in the past, why is Q then further hindering him? Did he solve it too fast? Not in the right way? Yknow? It's still not entirely clear to me whether or not the only stakes this season actually had the whole time, was the "galactic event" that appeared in the last 10 mins, and (presumably) would have destroyed the Federation. Otherwise I can't really tell if saving the Europa mission, and all the 2024 bullshit was Q just doing a round-about way of teaching Picard to love, much like his Robin Hood scenario in TNG. Even if the whole thing was a pre-destination paradox (which would explain away how dozens of deaths this season didn't have any impact on the timeline at all) it had to still had to be caused by Q in the first place, right? To let Q do something nice for Picard?
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 21:58
|
|
|
The impact of those deaths on the timeline were cancelled out by the extra people Rios had helped save with his new family.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 22:04
|
|
|
DaveKap posted:While we're on the topic of "how the SNW characters act" and likely the reason why "I want to get to know them all" I am just gonna point out some probably-inaccurate character comparisons. Can you guess who I'm comparing people to? It is to me, I dunno if it's just a cultural thing but the idea of a person just shouting out cool out of nowhere like that is utter anathema to me It's like when americans cheer and clap in cinemas
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 22:05
|
|
|
So Samuel Kirk dies in an episode of TOS? His introduction in SNW should be the start of a gag where every named crew member who dies in an episode of TOS is introduced at the end of every episode of SNW. Maybe give Pike some residual effect of the Klingon crystal thing where he sees visions of their deaths and just keeps it to himself.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 22:21
|
|
|
Detective No. 27 posted:So Samuel Kirk dies in an episode of TOS? His introduction in SNW should be the start of a gag where every named crew member who dies in an episode of TOS is introduced at the end of every episode of SNW. Maybe give Pike some residual effect of the Klingon crystal thing where he sees visions of their deaths and just keeps it to himself. that’s gonna be a lot of beefy Irishmen
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 22:39
|
|
|
Because he knows where and when they die, he knows he can put them on the most dangerous missions. This bolsters his reputation as a brilliant captain.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 22:46
|
|
|
Craptacular! posted:Congratulations to the Picard writers on removing everything that drew viewers into the Borg. It took a long time to make sure nobody wants to ever see them again but y’all did it. no, this development by the borg was the one thing they got right and the most obvious and long-time coming thing to do with the borg from the moment they introduced them. the irony of the body horror is that it's just a horror-movie style twist on a cultural anxiety, coming from a pathologically selfish and individualistic culture deeply fearful of any kind of behaviour, altruistic or otherwise, without clear, immediate, personal benefit. The notion of collectivism isn't scary enough on it's own, it's enticing, so they need to dress it up like the boogeyman, make it look all scary and painful ooo tubes and poo poo wow what monsters! nobody could ever want to be like this now! the greater fear from the individualist is the rejecting of selfishness, if too many people were swayed into collectivism, selfishness and it's destructive methodologies lose effectiveness, it starts to fail, it cannot outcompete the strength of so many selflessly working collectively for their mutual benefit. the borg don't need to be obtusely vilified anymore, i was just a kid back then not sure what was up folks craw back then, but today we definitely don't media arguing for collective bargaining and cooperation to be made out to be evil and scary. the nuBorg are potentially one of the most positive things to come out of all of nuTrek. the notion of welcoming diverse arrays of people with open arms, accepting them for their individual, cultural, technological, empathic uniqueness - assimilating the positive qualities of everyone and shedding the malicious and negative parts that drag folks down, while having a true sense of unity, community, connectedness, and a shared vision for the future and progress. the most interesting idea about the borg was always buried under kickass biohorror designs and dire threats that set our beloved crews into fear overdrive. but we got our horror plots out of that, we got more than enough of that, there was nothing left to do with that. now we got plenty more to do, newer questions to examine, better answers to give.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 22:50
|
|
|
Uhura going "cool" honestly didn't bother me that much. She's explicitly said to be a cadet, with the implication that her first posting is on the bridge of the flagship of Starfleet. I'd say it's pretty fair to get a little bit excited under those circumstances.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 22:54
|
|
|
the other cool thing about BetterBorg is they have assimilated art appreciation and demonstrated a talent for performance
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 23:00
|
|
|
Just thought of a good name for Queen Jurati: Five of Head
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 23:36
|
|
|
Khanstant posted:no, this development by the borg was the one thing they got right and the most obvious and long-time coming thing to do with the borg from the moment they introduced them. This is a great post, and I totally agree! I think, for me, this development would have been a lot more satisfying if turning the Borg good was done in a way where the entire aggressive Borg collective was able to negotiate a peace with the federation, through something Picard did more intentionally. It was why I was so interested when Q described the altered timeline as a "penance". I thought the lesson would be that Picard gave into fear and hatred when he self destructed the Stargazer despite the Borg showing signs of being more peaceful, and asking for understanding. Picard winning over his mortal enemy and turning them into a friend is the perfect Star Trek ideal to define his character. But in the end they didn't go that route. Juratti did everything of importance, and the Borg could only be trusted at the end because they had 100% certainty that the Borg were friends. A real missed opportunity in my mind.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 23:47
|
|
|
Everything about it was lazy and terrible. We went from 'resistance is futile' to 'actually in every timeline the Borg are destroyed' just like that. Jurati tells the Queen 'hey have you tried not being evil?' and it's done, just like that. Nothing about it is earned, there is no message, the story didn't mean anything.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2022 23:59
|
|
|
Khanstant posted:the other cool thing about BetterBorg is they have assimilated art appreciation and demonstrated a talent for performance Only a small mind would care about art and a talent for performance.  But seriously... this version of "BetterBorg" really isn't interesting. It's in the realm of someone like Data but there isn't nothing truely alien anymore. What would have been interesting is a true good COLLECTIVE, not an individualized hive with a queen at the top. And while it is correct that it is challenging to continue with the "evil" Borg I still think you could do good stories with them and that there would be something to explore it you went in the other direction and reversed some decissions, go back to a more collective expression of the Borg. You could still have a Borg "avatar" as character to interact with but let the Borg hivemind actually be the character like every Borg you'd talk to would be that same mind that responds. You could also still do very much with the whole horror aspect of the Borg. Just imagine episodes from the point of view of the Borg collective. We got some small attempts in Voyager but imo you could do a lot with that. Also what I would have preferred as "conclusion" to the Borg isn't a complete turn from "evil" to "good" but a slow and forced "evolution" towards something more neutral that could coexist with others while still being so alien that it wouldn't be compatible with something like the Federation. The Borg would basically turn inwards to work on their own "perfection", they technically don't need to assimilate, we have seen that they can create new bodies (ie baby borg and I'm sure they can just clone too) so in that way it would at least remove the brutality of destroying existing lives through assimilation and all future Borg would always have been Borg (no preexisting "mind" that is enslaved) so that the biological part really isn't more than a "suit" for the hivemind. All the Borg need is an incentive that steers them towards a more "efficient" path and you could come up with different ideas that bring them to the conclusion that they will never achieve "perfection" through assimilation of (flawed) biological beings. That way you could even keep them around as potential threat (you better don't screw with any of their stuff or plans) but you could add new dimensions to them and thus get different stories out of them. That's something "good Borg" don't offer because a good version of the Borg is so powerful that it's just too overwhelming which is the reason why this new version of the Borg will be quickly forgotten. So let the Borg be a "force of nature" that is neither good or bad and doesn't intentionally go out of its way to cause despair and destruction, let it be the scorpion... Imagine the Romulans or Klingons going into Borg space to steal technology and then we have an episode where our crew needs to investigate what they are up to but try to carefully tread with the Borg as not to draw their attention etc. Or an episode where a derelict Borg ship was up to something and "we" have to figure out what happened to it. Or an episode where the Borg send a cryptic message and actually want to cooperate with the Federation on something because it could potentially be mutually benefical (maybe). There are enough possibilities. Use the Borg as backdrop, as an environment to tell stories in, they don't need to be the big bad at all times. They could be the horror space version of "Q" or other godlike beings in Star Trek.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2022 00:05
|
|
|
The Borg cube in S1 was a fantastic concept. The sci-fi haunted house. The dungeon that we send adventuring parties of scientists, engineers and security personnel into seeking mysterious and poorly-undersood treasures. And then they literally smashed it into a planet.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2022 00:10
|
|
|
Maybe the decades-long dedication to de-fang-ing the Borg was an intentional plan, by the creaters, to teach the Borg a lesson: "that if the only way to improve yourself is by assimilating technology from societies that must, by neccesity, be inferior to you technologically, you probably aren't going to grow much in the longterm". Other civilizations that can out-think and/or out-gun you will eventually be sick of your bullshit, and will destroy you!
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2022 00:25
|
|
|
In the initial draft of Picard S2 Picard's mansion in 2024 was haunted and there were Universal canon style monsters in there. A Wolfman, a Frankenstein's monster, a mummy. Jurati and the Borg Queen are running around scared of the monsters with a couple drones and they find an old pipe organ. Jurati accidentally pressed the keys and suddenly a Phantasm appears. Saying his name is Flabber and thanking them for freeing him he agrees to grant them collectively one wish. Before the Borg Queen can wish her evil wish, Jurati shouts that she wishes they were superheroes. Flabber waves his arms and they become the Big Bad Beetleborgs
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2022 00:28
|
|
|
CPColin posted:Just thought of a good name for Queen Jurati: Five of Head I got your back homey
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2022 00:30
|
|
|
Re: the past trauma in SNW, it's far far better that the characters talked about it in episode 1 instead of dropping obtuse hints and eventually revealing it in a big emotionaly moment right before the end of the season. Would anyone have really preferred Pike telling Spock "Yeah something happened but im not ready to talk about it" for nine episodes? It's really fascinating to me how much more these new shows need to be character driven in a way TOS had absolutely no interest in to the point Chekov or Sulu could be replaced by the other in any episode they play a prominent role. This episode really reminded me of a Taste of Armageddon in how the story revolved around the captain interceding to bring an end to a local conflcit during first contact through a show of starship force, but that episode had the space to throw in a whole episodes worth of details about who the combatants were and how they were fighting
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2022 00:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 21:09 |
|
|
big bad betterborgs
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2022 00:57
|
|