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Killing something is good and all, but if you're a big margin behind the other DPS or, worse, behind the healer or tank, it might be a good way to figure out your might be doing something wrong.
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May 9, 2022 15:19
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Could they not just do the thing they do at the end of PvP matches when duties end and show how much damage and healing everyone did? I suppose it wouldn’t help in the moment but popping that up somewhere could at least be a way to show damage values.
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May 9, 2022 15:24
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Lord_Magmar posted:Right, but if you can do SSS then it becomes a matter of executing that rotation during mechanics. Which you don't need a dps meter to tell you whether you're able to do that or not. e: I guess when I'm referring to a dps meter I mean looking at my parses afterwards, not watching the number real-time. But still, I often have a vague or sometimes outright incorrect sense of how well I did from pull to pull. It is very helpful to see numbers that explain what I actually was doing rather than just knowing I can theoretically clear a target dummy. Martman fucked around with this message at 16:39 on May 9, 2022 |
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May 9, 2022 15:25
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What purpose would that have? It just means you have to sit around until the instance expires before you can see what is going on. It's just a lovely DPS meter with delay.
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May 9, 2022 15:27
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HackensackBackpack posted:Could they not just do the thing they do at the end of PvP matches when duties end and show how much damage and healing everyone did? I suppose it wouldn’t help in the moment but popping that up somewhere could at least be a way to show damage values. Possibly, but since different jobs have different personal dps contribution ranges the absolute damage values aren't that helpful to people who aren't already really used to reading them. Sure the sam did more total damage than the mch, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the sam was doing Good or that the mch was doing Bad. That also brings up the whole harassment concern again, since even if absolute damage isn't a good metric it still opens up an avenue for people to be lovely at each other. To be fair I basically never see that happen in Frontlines though.
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May 9, 2022 15:30
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To combat toxicity I vow to compliment two people for good dps for every person who is bm'd for bad dps.
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May 9, 2022 15:33
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WoW absolutely had slide casting back in the day. You'd have to use a cast interrupt macro, which would tell your client to knock it off early, but the spell would complete anyways. Being able to clear content is a terrible way to gauge your dps, because you can clear most stuff competently with 6 or 7 players. Someone can be absolutely dead weight and still think they're contributing a relevant amount. I honestly wouldn't expect any sort of relative feedback and I'm surprised pvp has it. Someone running casual content and seeing they're doing 10% of the damage others in their job do is going to either ignore or just feel bad and stop playing. The latter's probably someone someone with too much edge is going to say is a good thing, but we're not 13 here. Anyone that even remotely cares about how they're doing has probably stumbled on the information needed to have a decent rotation, or has checked out if they have logs uploaded by someone else.
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May 9, 2022 15:34
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I definitely look over the scoreboard at the end of frontlines and wonder what the gently caress my team was doing, but i don't say anything because a) it's against the rules and b) it's cringe. The same is true for dungeons as well. Although i do give my commendation to the player who was the most competent i guess.
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May 9, 2022 15:35
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Anyone that even remotely cares about how they're doing has probably stumbled on the information needed to have a decent rotation, or has checked out if they have logs uploaded by someone else.
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May 9, 2022 15:39
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Yeah, they're probably going to be lovely regardless, even if you point out they're parsing grey. It's easy to blame the group or rng despite neither of those making sense. I honestly think Yoship's earlier stance on ACT is good enough. He doesn't care if people parse at all. Just don't be lovely, for any reason.
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May 9, 2022 15:43
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I honestly think Yoship's earlier stance on ACT is good enough. He doesn't care if people parse at all. Just don't be lovely, for any reason. Yup. Hopefully this post is just a warning and they're not going to start anything more in-depth because some people whined about content they'll never do.
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May 9, 2022 15:46
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If anyone wants something lighter to peruse, someone organized for a bunch of FFXIV fanart: https://twitter.com/sabattons/status/1523671068371984384?t=mQepQPnnO9l4uJpquk85sw&s=19
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May 9, 2022 15:47
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I think the main reason to add a parser in game is that people are a lot more willing to install Triggernometry if they already broke the mental barrier of using third party tools and have ACT ready to go to install it. You're not going to stop the people dedicated to gaining every advantage but you would curb it.
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May 9, 2022 15:48
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Just let me turn off right click targeting in combat or even entirely gdi. Every other plugin I use is a QoL thing I can live without 
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May 9, 2022 15:54
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you don't need ACT to tell which dps in your party is doing less damage than the healers, and there's nothing you can say to them about it anyway
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May 9, 2022 15:56
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FuturePastNow posted:you don't need ACT to tell which dps in your party is doing less damage than the healers, and there's nothing you can say to them about it anyway Yes you do. More damage than healers isn't a reasonably high bar anyways.
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May 9, 2022 16:03
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FuturePastNow posted:you don't need ACT to tell which dps in your party is doing less damage than the healers, and there's nothing you can say to them about it anyway Usually not, but sometimes there's that one guy who is absolutely in love with overhealing and jumps up the enmity list as a result.
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May 9, 2022 16:20
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DPS meters are already in the game for DPS (and tanks a little bit in some 8 man and 24 man content). For DPS, assuming no deaths, your spot on the aggro meter is your DPS relative to the other DPS. This doesn't work for healers, but it's a really good way to see how you're doing as a DPS. You shouldn't feel bad for being low on the DPS list if you're a bard and your co-dps is a dragoon in single target situations. You should feel bad if you're a dragoon lower on the aggro list than a bard in single target situations. e:f;b. would have been even funnier if I hadn't been freed from riker's island.
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May 9, 2022 16:29
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Enmity displays personal dps, not contributed dps, so as said above, it's a very very bad way of comparing greedy and non-greedy classes
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May 9, 2022 16:37
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Going off the threat meter only tells you the order. You can have 2 orange parsers next to two greys, and it'll merely show you that the bottom two are doing less than the top two, which is basically meaningless.
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May 9, 2022 16:37
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Mr. Nice! posted:DPS meters are already in the game for DPS (and tanks a little bit in some 8 man and 24 man content). For DPS, assuming no deaths, your spot on the aggro meter is your DPS relative to the other DPS. This doesn't work for healers, but it's a really good way to see how you're doing as a DPS. Nobody is particularly interested in Dungeon DPS in terms of what is being discussed, because your damage in Dungeons basically doesn't matter except for speed. The meters people want are for Savage etc, which is what my point about SSS was for. If you can complete SSS with your rotation, then the Savage is doable once you can apply that rotation whilst doing mechanics, anything extra is just gravy. Also all of this is in response to something completely separate from DPS meters, which is that the Japanese fanbase are apparently pissed about a mod that automatically applies markers to players for helping to solve mechanics. Which is literally just easing up the requirements to call poo poo out in raid chat, it does nothing for mechanical capability (and it feels a bit telling that they're complaining when it's a EU team that won). That's why the tone is more or less don't be lovely about the World First or we might have to just stop acknowledging it at all. If they actually were intent on punishing the people who used the marker application stuff they would do so. They have recorded proof of it happening via vidoes shared by that team.
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May 9, 2022 16:42
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I do think it's possible to implement am in game parser that minimizes the opportunity for toxicity but it'll have to be inconvenient to accomplish that. At the very least it'll have to be in high end duties only and only for yourself.
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May 9, 2022 16:43
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cheetah7071 posted:I do think it's possible to implement am in game parser that minimizes the opportunity for toxicity but it'll have to be inconvenient to accomplish that. At the very least it'll have to be in high end duties only and only for yourself. Yeah I think like, here's your DPS as a number wouldn't be an undue thing to put in game. Maybe tie it into SSS so you can see how much DPS you can theoretically do.
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May 9, 2022 16:44
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I think the "best" way to implement a parser with the goals the FFXIV team is aiming for would simply be to have it only active in premade PF groups (or in explicit Duty Completion DF groups) in Savage and Extreme content. Those are the game's sole areas where everyone performing at an average-or-above level mechanically is necessary for duty completion, and would isolate the overwhelming majority of the rest of the game away from any potential toxicity.
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May 9, 2022 16:50
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:and it'll merely show you that the bottom two are doing less than the top two, which is basically meaningless. What do you need to know other than that?
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May 9, 2022 16:52
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FuturePastNow posted:What do you need to know other than that?
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May 9, 2022 16:55
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FuturePastNow posted:What do you need to know other than that? Literally anything? If you're hitting enrage, knowing the dps order doesn't help, unless it's something egregious like a DNC on top and SAM on bottom. But seeing a DRG is doing more than a SAM is meaningless, or if all 4 are equally bad, you're still not getting any useful information.
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May 9, 2022 16:57
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I honestly don't see the opportunity to be toxic about DPS. When you are progging a fight DPS doesn't matter. Whether you fail mechanics and die or get a damage down is much more relevant and more apparent. If there's someone dying to something over and over that they shouldn't be then they are going to be removed from the group regardless of their DPS. The only time DPS actually matters is if you're dying to a damage check or enrage. Generally people know their rotation well enough to know where they can improve their damage, and if they can't then they need to be removed from the group because they are hindering progress. That's an extremely rare occurrence though, and is no different from not being able to perform in terms of avoiding mechanics. DPS mainly just make the game more fun. It's a good feeling to have a good pull and see the number go up. It's why ffxivlogs gives you a percentile and a chart to see your improvement over time. It's gratifying.
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May 9, 2022 16:59
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CJ posted:Generally people know their rotation well enough to know where they can improve their damage, and if they can't then they need to be removed from the group because they are hindering progress.
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May 9, 2022 17:01
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Yeah, they should never implement or enable parsing, ever. This is a rather chillax game and I'd like to keep it that way instead of being yelled at by some gently caress head because I dropped my blm cycle once or twice in a normal panda raid or some dumb poo poo. Most players are terrible and have no idea wtf they're doing (including me). Even if it's wrong.
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May 9, 2022 17:04
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I can't remember the last time i was way off an enrage where nobody messed up a mechanic and we were way off the DPS check because some guy was doing 50% of the damage he should have. At most we're a couple of % off. But i also don't try to clear the entire tier week 1 so i could see it being a different situation there or in an ultimate.
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May 9, 2022 17:05
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Why does it have to be a case where no one messed up mechanics? Doing terrible DPS specifically makes it harder to recover from any mistakes.
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May 9, 2022 17:07
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I don't see Yoship putting in anything that would make people feel bad. When you officially start acknowledging parsing that starts parsing numbers being required for party finder teams and a lot of other bullshit. I don't think the team is down for that kind of atmosphere.
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May 9, 2022 17:11
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I don't get how you tell if someone's low damage is due to rotation issues or if it's due to them getting damage downs and dying when those are factored in. I just can't really imagine a scenario where you die to enrage and then kick the guy for doing 90% of his potential DPS when one other guy died and another took a damage down. EDIT: Also apparently they copyright claimed the world first vid with the callouts in it. Good abuse of youtube's copyright system.
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May 9, 2022 17:13
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TheWorldsaStage posted:I don't see Yoship putting in anything that would make people feel bad. I dunno, look how the housing system was implemented  ha cha cha
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May 9, 2022 17:16
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CJ posted:I don't get how you tell if someone's low damage is due to rotation issues or if it's due to them getting damage downs and dying when those are factored in. You tell the difference...... by parsing. And you don't kick someone for doing 90% of reasonable DPS, you kick them for doing I dunno let's say half. Lots of people are very bad at doing DPS while doing mechanics, and don't realize it. Martman fucked around with this message at 17:20 on May 9, 2022 |
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May 9, 2022 17:17
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Martman posted:You tell the difference...... by parsing. See that's the thing, even super bad 25% dps should be allowed to progress without being booted, FF14 was cultivated a very relaxed community for an MMO by excluding tools like DPS metres, don't want to see that change even if it does mean enduring a donkey brained DPS every once in a while
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May 9, 2022 17:20
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Are you actually getting savage PF groups where people are doing 25% of their damage? If you are then fair enough, but i can't say it's something i've ever seen.No Dignity posted:See that's the thing, even super bad 25% dps should be allowed to progress without being booted, FF14 was cultivated a very relaxed community for an MMO by excluding tools like DPS metres, don't want to see that change even if it does mean enduring a donkey brained DPS every once in a while If you aren't capable of performing to a level where you are capable of clearing a fight then you need to leave and come back when you are capable of doing so. You can learn your rotation on a target dummy or in normal modes. There is no reason for you to be in content with an enrage timer if you can't output the required DPS, you're just wasting 7 other people's time. CJ fucked around with this message at 17:24 on May 9, 2022 |
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May 9, 2022 17:22
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No Dignity posted:See that's the thing, even super bad 25% dps should be allowed to progress without being booted, FF14 was cultivated a very relaxed community for an MMO by excluding tools like DPS metres, don't want to see that change even if it does mean enduring a donkey brained DPS every once in a while E: 25% was an exaggeration, but grey parsing people are frequently doing drastically less than they should be, let alone how far below optimal.
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May 9, 2022 17:22
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No Dignity posted:See that's the thing, even super bad 25% dps should be allowed to progress without being booted, FF14 was cultivated a very relaxed community for an MMO by excluding tools like DPS metres, don't want to see that change even if it does mean enduring a donkey brained DPS every once in a while The point being made is related to Savage/Extreme/Ultimates not normal content, where enrages actually exist.
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May 9, 2022 17:22
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