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What is the progression for Kult? The scenarios you’ve presented make it feel like it’s all a haunted house where you watch all the spooky poo poo fly by and at the end if you didn’t decide to eat the children, you win. How does this benefit humanity being in a prison planet! Also, how does one ally with orangutans. They are literal apes.
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May 9, 2022 19:00
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Everyone posted:Honestly Kult seems more like some deeply frustrated novelist's setting for a horror/despair book/series and you'd be better off playing Unknown Armies which is a little that kind of setting but still playable as a real game. Dawgstar posted:Kult was one of those games where I always kind of just wondered what the PCs do exactly. I think I'm good now. Bogart posted:Someone remind me what Kult is again. Wasn’t it the game where you torture your friends into apotheosis? I gave up hope on K:DL when I saw how badly they handled the rules. As a PBTA game, it reminds me of Tremulus and Last One Standing and other early PBTA games, where the designers were clearly jazzed about the resolution system and the idea of playbooks but really didn't understand the things that made Apocalypse World such a game-changer. They saw the rules for being Cool Under Fire, and somehow their takeaway was that every attack should involve multiple rolls. There's a big list of Advantages that work like skills, and a big list of Disadvantages that invite the GM to mess with you at random. They don't understand GM Moves, period. All in all, they don't understand the interplay of player-driven narrative and GM-driven narrative that makes PBTA work. It also reminds me of the way Monte Cook took stuff from Fate and bolted it onto D20. They took PBTA and bolted them onto a very 90s game. The kind of games where there are traits like "Status" and you can spend points on them, but what they actually do is totally vague. Anyway. For comparison, look at Call of Cthulhu. I wouldn't say that Lovecraft's Yog-Sothothery is a playable setting either, mostly because the stories often feature a single protagonist who doesn't really do anything or just gets killed by a monster. But Chaosium did a lot of work to wedge it into a playable game, even if it took them awhile to find their feet. There's a group of PCs, you have clear goals. There are threads of investigation that you can follow. There is often a wealth of information providing social context for a given scenario, and so on. But imagine if CoC just gave you the rules for characters and a setting bible, and said "Here. Set a roleplaying game somewhere in this mess." That's what Kult does with its Gnostic Clive Barker inspired setting. My impression from the Kult fanbase, though, is that this is what they want. I've seen some Kult fanpages and fanzines over the years, and it seems like if you're playing Kult, you're on board with cramming as much edgy content into a game as you can, without regard for whether or not it adds up to a story. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:16 on May 9, 2022 |
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May 9, 2022 19:06
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Bogart posted:Also, how does one ally with orangutans. They are literal apes. According to the adventure, give them food or save them from being tortured by the natives. I'm not going to ask more questions than that because an Orangutan owning a demon would rule. Hell, let the Orangutan pick up the enchanted sword.
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May 9, 2022 19:06
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You know what game Kult makes look amazing by comparison? SLA Industries. I'm kinder to SLA than some around here (although I get why they don't like it) BUT they both set out to do the same thing with having a nebulous 'truth'* with even more nebulous things surrounding what happens when you figure it out, there's a lot of violence and attempts at shock value (although SLA to its credit does not, I believe, go for attempts at edgy sexiness) and they're even both about how people don't realize they're in a created world but SLA Industries at least has the decency to give you a constructed method of doing things in the world, a reason for doing so, a reason for the PCs to interact with the world and perhaps even learn it's truths and paths for advancement. *Yes, or Truth, but to be fair 2E's messed with that enough already it's hard to say what it is.
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May 9, 2022 19:16
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Kult is kinda the inverse of SLA in some ways. Like, SLA has a clear gameplay loop where you're going on missions to get cash, fame, and increased rank. It runs into problems when you want to "level up" your game to a scale where all that stuff going on with Slayer, Senti, Braceface, Taarnish, Digger, Slarbmax, etc. actually matters to your game and you can engage with the Big Secret. Kult, meanwhile, drowns you in information about the Big Secret and the named NPCs, but you hit a wall as soon as you want to do anything with it besides seeing a bunch of gross stuff and dying. Edit: I think the game Purple wants to play, where PCs get to be the badass cosmic jailers, is The Whispering Vault. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:57 on May 9, 2022 |
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May 9, 2022 19:34
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PurpleXVI posted:
Which Kult is not. PurpleXVI posted:
PurpleXVI posted:
 PurpleXVI posted:
 one of those things is not like the others!
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May 9, 2022 20:43
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I mean yeah I think 3 of those concepts are alright for urban fantasy game - does not have to be kult. They might not fit a single group of characters, but I could imagine them in a mortal party for Wod/Cofd or CoC no problem. Child killing lady is just a pizza cutter.
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May 9, 2022 20:47
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PurpleXVI posted:Kult: Divinity Lost Maybe I missed it, since when it comes to Kult pre-gens my eyes protectively glaze over, but are players supposed to be aware of the 'dark secret' or is the GM supposed to just drop 'by the by, your PC loves murdering kids, and yes, you have killed one or two already' into a session?
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May 9, 2022 20:52
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Pakxos posted:Maybe I missed it, since when it comes to Kult pre-gens my eyes protectively glaze over, but are players supposed to be aware of the 'dark secret' or is the GM supposed to just drop 'by the by, your PC loves murdering kids, and yes, you have killed one or two already' into a session? Unless they also have the Repressed Memory trait, they're aware of their Dark Secret, is my understanding. So imagine starting up that scenario, being given the four sheets and having to fight over who gets stuck playing a child murderer on racism island.
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May 9, 2022 20:55
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A lot of these "gritty horror" games seem to assume players will just want to be terrible people and commit atrocities in the same way that other games assume the players will want to explore and go on adventures.
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May 9, 2022 20:55
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It seems like they had three writers for that one: serious guy did the first two, the lovable goofball wrote the ghost buddy kid. And the distinctly unloveable goofball just wanted to be edgy.
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May 9, 2022 20:58
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PurpleXVI posted:Dark-skinned natives that are out of the wildest racist fantasies of right-wingers, as they're literally running around naked(except of course that we are told they have "wooden penis sheaths") and sacrifice palefaced whities to the boar god Yes, that seems to be a little racist. OTOH given the history of what has always happened when white people encounter a less technologically militarized (not less advanced) indigenous people, sacrificing (or otherwise killing) the white people ASAP with extreme prejudice is absolutely the smartest, most prudent thing thing the indigenous folks can do.
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May 10, 2022 00:42
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If anything, Kult is proof that the North Sentinelese are right to shoot at Christian missionaries. Get that Manichaean bullshit outta here!
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May 10, 2022 01:44
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Halloween Jack posted:If anything, Kult is proof that the North Sentinelese are right to shoot at Christian missionaries. Get that Manichaean bullshit outta here! Oh, now, I'm sure there's some Archon Proper Noun who oversees them with the purview of tribalism or something so they're probably still devoted to The Illusion.
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May 10, 2022 02:31
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megane posted:A lot of these "gritty horror" games seem to assume players will just want to be terrible people and commit atrocities in the same way that other games assume the players will want to explore and go on adventures. I don't even think "our prospective players want to play as all the horrible people in an off-brand Clive Barker novel" is an unacceptable goal. You just need to build your game with much more craft and player/GM advice than this edition of Kult does. Also, you either need to make adventures that are actually playable, or you need to go full Bluebeard's Bride and make the whole game some kind of rigid mystery play. You can't just split the difference and have all your adventures laid out like a straight-to-video Hellraiser sequel.
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May 10, 2022 02:41
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megane posted:A lot of these "gritty horror" games seem to assume players will just want to be terrible people and commit atrocities in the same way that other games assume the players will want to explore and go on adventures. Which means the games have problems coming and going in the actual real world where the roleplay happens. Because going with the above scenario, you'll either have no one wanting to play the child killer lady in which case whoever gets stuck with her is going to have an unfun time (and roleplaying games are supposed to be some version of fun). Or, even worse, you'll have somebody who wants to play the child killer lady. In which case that player is going to expect the GM to provide them with an opportunity to rape/torture/murder a child. And make every one else in group endure that scene. If it was me as a player in this scenario, I'd play the child killer lady. But my take on her would be that she struggled with these awful impulses and after she succumbed, she felt horribly guilty and checked herself into a mental health clinic until they used everything up to a pre-frontal lobotomy to carve those urges right out of her brain. So gently caress you, scenario. I'm sanding all the "edginess" right off of this character and playing the way I want to which won't be jerk-off bait for the dude who wrote this character.
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May 10, 2022 03:26
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A person struggling with urges so terrible that a Faustian bargain might be the only choice would actually be great for a proper psychological horror game. Which again, Kult is not.
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May 10, 2022 04:18
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Boar god and orangutan bros are really cool and I'd play the hell out of the game about just those things together. But that's like the remaining half a pretty decent sandwich buried in a pile of used medical sharps in this particular instance. This poo poo is nominally a PbtA game????? How the gently caress does that work? I've been reading this assuming it was some kind of semi-groggy simulationist garbage that talks up its deep psychological gameplay but actually has detailed rules for full-auto gunfire and a weapon damage chart with a separate entry for katanas.
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May 10, 2022 05:40
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I so want an actual good PBTA gnostic horror game but maybe DREAD is more suited and DRYH may be the easiest to adapt chunks of the game universe for.
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May 10, 2022 05:55
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By popular demand posted:I so want an actual good PBTA gnostic horror game but maybe DREAD is more suited and DRYH may be the easiest to adapt chunks of the game universe for. I've been yearning for a proper narrative horror game for ages. Something that actually has mechanics for the interface between player agency and powerlessness as a theme of horror, rather than blandly simulating how much damage a wood axe does with a little note to GM's saying, "Make it spoopy!"
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May 10, 2022 06:09
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ITT: everyone studiously ignoring wooden penis sheaths
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May 10, 2022 06:44
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JcDent posted:ITT: everyone studiously ignoring wooden penis sheaths Well yeah. What're you gonna use, ivory? That'd be totally inhumane.
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May 10, 2022 06:45
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Those actually are in use by certain tribes in Africa. The hosed up thing was fetishising tribal cultures and putting them up as villains in that mess.
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May 10, 2022 06:47
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Amazon rainforest too, iirc.
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May 10, 2022 06:54
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The power of the phallus truly transcends all cultural boundaries and unites the whole human race.
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May 10, 2022 06:56
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i still can't get over how bad that font is
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May 10, 2022 07:06
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Usually when a terrible game gets written up in F&F there is a lot of effort to try and "fix" or "salvage" it. Nobody seems to be putting in any kind of work along those lines for Kult. It's just that bad.
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May 10, 2022 07:11
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FMguru posted:Usually when a terrible game gets written up in F&F there is a lot of effort to try and "fix" or "salvage" it. Gnostic horror isn't an inherently bad idea, but with Kult it's just blatantly obvious that there's nothing salvagable at all. It is 100% junk.
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May 10, 2022 07:13
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Angrymog posted:Amazon rainforest too, iirc. Also New Guinea and some parts of Indonesia - so it's actually plausible for a culture that lives on an island with orangutans! It's like they briefly did some research before going back to throwing in edgy bullshit!
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May 10, 2022 07:16
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I mean you can salvage cult by taking basic concepts of setting - humans being ancient evil demigods jailed in na illusion, factions working to bust them out and ones trying to keep them in. But this is just base idea and you are reinventing the whole thing because the material made for the game is just garbage
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May 10, 2022 07:22
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Angry Salami posted:Also New Guinea and some parts of Indonesia - so it's actually plausible for a culture that lives on an island with orangutans! It's like they briefly did some research before going back to throwing in edgy bullshit! I did five minutes of googling before posting, and the closest to wooden sheaths are made from gourds, unless wiki failed me.
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May 10, 2022 10:28
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FMguru posted:Usually when a terrible game gets written up in F&F there is a lot of effort to try and "fix" or "salvage" it. I already have a lighter.
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May 10, 2022 23:46
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Really want to play Voidheart Symphony, the excelle t rpg by Minerva McJanda that is essentially a Persona 5 but actually honed in on representation and community change themes but I'm finding it hard to motivate when world building a modern setting involving screwed up pols when the world is already so demoralizing. It's not exactly escapism when you're rping the positive change in the world that FEELS like you need superpowers to actually enable. Anyway, whinging mode off.
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May 11, 2022 00:04
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Kult: Divinity Lost  The Leftovers  The remainder of Taroticum and Other Tales is pretty uninspiring and just blandly bad. There's a short scenario where a girl disappears and it turns out a SEX ANGEL has made her a DISCIPLE OF HORNY and anyone she touches doesn't want to do anything other than orgies and I guess the players have to kill her. The other one is about how a mass murderer claims to have lost his memory, so the cops just go: "hey, jeff, joe, john and jackson, go take the mass murderer for a walk to all sorts of shady sites he could easily escape from and see if it jogs his memory" and then it turns out that it does jog his memory and also a demon tries to eat all of them. Just bland and stupid poo poo. The Black Madonna  What's less bland, but no less stupid, is The Black Madonna. It absolutely takes the cake in terms of pointless detail about the past that never matters to the game, being railroady and just being... kind of incomprehensible. The other scenarios I always had 99% of an idea of what was going on, but reading the Black Madonna I repeatedly had to go back for things like "wait, why are the players going here?" or "wait, I thought they already won the scenario, why is it still happening?" It's probably the scenario that contains the least objectionably gross poo poo, in terms of sexual violence, racism and authorial horniness, but clocking in at 176 pages and having its own .PDF I think it's definitely the scenario that wastes my time the most. I will try to summarize it as best as I can, please bear with me. It's also worth noting this is apparently an updated version of a scenario originally released for the first edition of Kult, so that may explain why it's less gross and horny. Part 1 Having already gotten their greasy loving fingers on just about everything else, this time the Kult devs decide it's time to breathe heavily over the Cold War(sort of). We still start during World War 2, though. We're in Leningrad, and cutting out a ton of tiresome bullshit, the city's under siege, so an old dude whips out the ol' blood-drinking grimoire and summons a Death Angel for help, but its price is turning his entire family into maddened Nepharites(apparently he was only expecting to have to give it a few children or peasants) and then the angel... doesn't actually help. It just sets up an orphanage where the children are tortured and turned into insane cannibals that swarm out at night and chew Russian soldiers to the bone. Of course, where there's a Death Angel, Metropolis responds, and an Archon, Binah, takes a personal hand to turn a human priest in the city into a Lictor so he can liberate the children and destroy the Death Angel's human host body. It succeeds, but the Death Angel decides to plant parts of himself in three of the freed children so that if said children are ever killed, he'll pop back on to the mortal plane again(albeit as a trinity rather than one whole being) and be once more allowed to gently caress around. Considering that Kult seems to have no end of moron cultists, it seems like it would be smarter to just wait for another idiot to poke at the grimoire, but what do I know, I'm not a death angel. Fast forward to the 1990's shortly after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. The PC's are a bunch of randos who meet one of the freed children(now no longer a cannibal monster and also no longer a child) at a party where she touches them and that makes them get her strange supernatural disease. It turns out that Chagidiel, the Death Angel, rather than doing any of a thousand more intelligent things, has decided to use dreams to convince the three orphans with his shards inside them, that the PC's are out to kill them. The plan is that the orphans will try to kill the PC's first(they just have, by shoving another orphan with a magic disease at them), and thus the PC's will respond with vicious force and... look. Every other scenario has established that there are thousands of willing cultists and general morons everywhere. Why not just get a cultist to do it? Or a Razide? Or a Nepharite or... nyaaaaaaaaargh. The ostensible explanation is that "it'll be less likely to alert the archons if some random PC's kill them" but how the gently caress are the archons not already aware of these guys? Or at least some Lictors? The three orphans are at this point already cultist wizards who sacrifice industrial amounts of people every month for extremely vague reasons. Whatever, gently caress it, whatever. The lady who infects the PC's then croaks in the next day or so, so they can't just ask her what the gently caress is up once they start being covered in buboes filled with worm demons that sing, but they can either go to her apartment or just ask around and they'll find out that she hung around with three bad dudes, who are also wizards. Going to any of their homes invariably results in their executing some ninja escape, so they can't just be killed or interrogated, but if the PC's poke at enough pixels or try to infiltrate the wizards' cult(just the casual one, not the blood sacrifice one), they can find false clues that they've been put under a "dream curse" and need to do a reverse curse to kill the wizards, which is most easily done when they're at their monthly mass sacrifice with the politicians, capitalists and mafiosos that also do this. Handily this happens at a spooky mansion in the woods. First the PC's have to run around it twice out in the woods to draw a ritual circle around it, for the reverse curse, then they have to sneak in and draw one just around the sacrificial temple that the three cursed adult orphans are in. They'll probably have to terrify or kill a bunch of murderer politicians to get that deep, but that's fine. Just roll with it. Anyway, PC's get in there, do the reverse curse and OH NO, IT WAS CHAGIDIEL'S TRAP. Instead of just having the PC's loving shoot the cursed adult orphans, this opens a gate to hell, the adult orphans melt, the chunks of Chagidiel come out of them and the Nepharites made from that rich guy's family in the intro drag their souls away. The chunks then fondle the party uncomfortably before disappearing, giving them magic tumors that mark them as allies of Chagidiel, as a distraction for the archons. Since this actually turns out to work, why not just tag a ton of people and then have a Nepharite brain the orphans? Why the gently caress not, Chagidiel? You fuckface? Part 2 The party is now double-cursed and also the cops are after them, oh and the orphans' wizard buddies, too. Sucks to be the PC's, I guess. What's a bunch of violent idiots to do in such a situation? Basically they're supposed to gently caress around like morons until a Lictor gets attracted by the mark the shards put on them. The Lictor will toss them around like rag dolls for a while, realize they're not demons, apologize and start grilling them about what's going on without offering much in return until they pick up on the cursed lady and the other cursed people all having passed through the same mental institution. If they go there, it turns out the basement is full of spiky demon people(and of course the requisite portal to Inferno), but the real reason to go there is so a random crazy person can hand them a random doll which now unlocks the rest of the plot. Next time they go to sleep, a dream wizard(the crazy guy who gave them the doll and who in the future is a mighty time wizard has teleported back in time into their dreams to help them) in their dreams teaches them dream magic. Sadly, they appear to have removed the part where you can superpower yourself in the dreamworld and then walk back into the real world, which is a shame, no bringing a Gundam to throw down with the Lictors, but while you're in the dream world you'll at least learn to pull up a console and gently caress with all the variables and summon stuff. Now you might ask: Isn't what the players are looking for actually in the real world? Yes. Yes they are. But apparently despite a bunch of the orphans wandering around in the world, some of Chagidiel's captives still have their dream selves stuck in Inferno? Anyway, after sufficient dreams and dream training montages, the party goes to dream Inferno where their dream magic still works, which is not how the setting works. Dream magic only works in the world of dreams, not anywhere else, unless you're summoning dream creatures or creating portals into the dream world and... no. No. gently caress it. Never mind. They go to the dream world and find the children's dream souls and have a dream anime battle with one third of Chagidiel, which they win because of the power of dreams, free the children and back to the real world. Part 3 Read some loving newspapers. No, seriously, the next plot point literally only pops up if the party reads the newspapers. Apparently according to the newspapers the three cursed orphan wizard murder cultists the party killed were also involved with German fascists in East Berlin. I've read this part over and over, and while I do love me some nazi-murdering, I have yet to understand how this actually leads to the next section of the scenario, except that it's literally the only way to get there. Because it turns out the nazis have coincidentally have contacts with one of the thirds of Chagidiel and they're buying drugs and guns from it. So they go to Moscow and the KGB, which is of course run by a Lictor, because everything is, offers to help them in exchange for the PC's infiltrating the drug lab supplying the nazis. Before the party can act on this help and information, though, the military arrests them and drives them right up to the door of the 1/3rd of Chagidiel who's near Moscow and sending magic meth to the nazis. They're captured but the GM is instructed to liberate them by any means, even going so far as to have KGB commandos bust them out if they don't do it themselves, raising questions about what the PC's are really needed for. So they go to the missile silo where the incarnate is hiding out, pretending to be a Russian general surrounded by undead children with guns. When he's killed they all turn into ghosts which the game decides to explicitly call out are naked. Why the gently caress, Kult? Why? Anyway, hooray, the party is now 2/3rds of the way to being uncursed. The KGB Lictor congratulates them and tells them to go to Leningrad because the Lictor that almost murdered them by accident earlier has stopped answering their phone calls. The Lictor's got himself stuck in a cathedral surrounded by zombies who are too stupid to stop the PCs, who walk in, get the latest plot dump: It turns out that the original orphanage somehow still exists but in a pocket dimension and the children are still there? Okay, whatever, the last incarnate is also there. And then the plot grabs one of the PC's by the throat and shoves Binah, yes, the Archon of near-godlike power, into their brain. Off they go to find the house in the pocket dimension, which they can't find, but then the dream ghost children from Inferno that they freed earlier show them the way and they enter. The house is like... 30 rooms that just have a gross thing in them, one that has a couple of NPC's to fight and the last one which holds the final incarnate. When the PC's enter, Binah jumps out of the brain she's hiding in, gets super huge, and the incarnate also gets super huge, and they have a kaiju battle. If they free the trapped children they then all turn out to have been tortured so hard they've partially Awakened and are little demigods that help Binah own Chagidiel with magic, but I feel like it's implied Binah wins anyway so, like, if you don't give a gently caress, just leave the children there and walk out. If you do that, though, the GM's notes says the PC's are dragged arbitrarily off to Inferno for eternal torture. And that's that, the PC's are cured of the demon plague and can now go do whatever stuff they'd normally have done. Now when reading this, imagine that every single noun or name is accompanied by two loving pages of history that don't matter. The loving lady that dies five minutes after the first scene the players actually play has half a page devoted to her life story. It's stupid and I hate it and I hope they never produce another Kult: Divinity Lost supplement because then I'll be drawn back into this miserable vortex of trash again.
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May 11, 2022 02:15
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1) Who is the Black Madonna? 2) Is this less confusing in the original Kult?
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May 11, 2022 06:49
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Well that is the most blendered-until-it-becomes-unrecognizable adventure I've seen for a long time, is it a contest to produce this poo poo among the writers?
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May 11, 2022 07:48
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If I'm being honest, Purple, I'm so far happy that you were soft on the GM Guide - it's pretty good - and am glad you're slaughtering these adventures because I read them when my Kickstarter package came a couple weeks ago and was originally gonna show my sister who's into the same grimdark black metal edgy poo poo as I am, and then I started getting deeper, and now I think it's under the bed. Actually I'm a little disappointed you didn't go harder on Island, and hope you continue to go as hard on Black Madonna. Those have both sucked for ages and tbh I'm glad to see someone actually saying that, the Kult community is a bit fawning.
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May 11, 2022 09:03
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Bogart posted:1) Who is the Black Madonna? Bogart posted:2) Is this less confusing in the original Kult? Yes, but only if you don't read Swedish because that way it's just incomprehensible but with well done art and you can pretend it's an RPG Voynich Manuscript. If you can read Swedish then the original is just as dumb/gross/confusing as it is now.
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May 11, 2022 10:59
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Degenesis had fans, so of course this garbage does as well.
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May 11, 2022 11:38
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Bogart posted:1) Who is the Black Madonna? 2) Is this less confusing in the original Kult? 1) The Black Madonna is Binah. 2) Hell if I know, haven't read it. It just sorely lacks like... a "flowchart," if that makes sense. Some of the adventures actually start with that sort of thing, a solid overview of how each part flows into the next. The other thing is just how painfully linear it is and how it has almost Dragonlance-esque "if the players don't behave, throw cops and cultists at them until they get back on track or they die" rather than acknowledgements of alternate approaches or anything of that sort. sasha_d3ath posted:Actually I'm a little disappointed you didn't go harder on Island, The main reason I didn't really tear into the island was that firstly, a lot of what's bad about it was already worse in some of the prior scenarios. By comparison it was actually less gross and edgy. Secondly, it was the first one I came across where it felt like it was actually playable with relatively minor changes(the main threat is the cultist sailors, so the racism can be toned down by removing the cultist natives entirely, for instance, and it's relatively easy to excise the child-murdering pre-gen character.). Plus it seemed to actually account for the players not just moving in a straight line and doing exactly what the GM wanted. PurpleXVI fucked around with this message at 12:45 on May 11, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 12:42
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