|
The Rape of Persephone is actually where the modern definition of “rape” comes from. It used to be synonymous with “abduction”.
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 00:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 21:33 |
|
|
Platystemon posted:The Rape of Persephone is actually where the modern definition of “rape” comes from. Actually the "Rape of Persephone" is also an example of the older meaning of the term. The story hinges on Hades' abduction of Persephone to the underworld.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 01:06
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:Actually the "Rape of Persephone" is also an example of the older meaning of the term. The story hinges on Hades' abduction of Persephone to the underworld. That sounds exactly like what Platystemon was saying
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 01:15
|
|
|
Soul Dentist posted:That sounds exactly like what Platystemon was saying He implied the modern definition came from the story of Persephone. Not the older definition that means "abduction".
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 02:50
|
|
|
People misunderstood which aspect of the story the verb related to, in the title of the myth and in certain other fossilized uses such as the Rape of the Sabine women. Hope that helps. You can see the original meaning in many English words today. Raptors seize their prey. The audience listens in rapt attention because the speaker has seized their interest. The rapture will abduct the faithful and spirit them to Heaven.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 03:14
|
|
|
See also the rape of the lock
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 03:23
|
|
|
Platystemon posted:People misunderstood which aspect of the story the verb related to, in the title of the myth and in certain other fossilized uses such as the Rape of the Sabine women. Yes it does. Your previous post was kinda ambiguously worded.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 05:47
|
|
|
A common term for boy children/adolescents in Portuguese (rapaz) has the same root. Comes from the Latin adjective of the word meaning rapacious. It is so ingrained for that everyday use that few make the connection unless they really reflect on it being similar to related words, e.g “raptar” (=kidnap). Can’t speak for all Romance languages but at least in the Iberian ones, words derived from rap*didn’t really gain the secondary sex crime meaning as it did in English.
Falukorv has a new favorite as of 06:18 on May 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 06:11
|
|
|
In french the crime is called "viol," akin to "violation." If french doesn't have it, I dare say the rap* to sexual assault usage is an anglophone thing. And possibly old norman in origin cuz that's where all the weird english terminology comes from, yeah? The chicken becomes poultry, the cattle become beef, etc.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 06:28
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:Yes it does. Your previous post was kinda ambiguously worded. get they rear end
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 06:35
|
|
|
There actually were Zeus worshiping places who'd be all 'What are you talking about, you weird pervert, Zeus is faithful to his wife' iirc.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 13:27
|
|
|
oscarthewilde posted:but isn’t it incredibly reductive to describe Disney commercializing Greek myth as just another reinterpretation? Anyways, I stand by 'Gilgamesh is a gay love story if you want it to be', on the grounds of Death of the Author, and that precise authorial intent, even if it did matter, was lost to time thousands of years ago. We'll never understand all the subtext of a particular interpretation. Pop culture references, sly nods to groups or slogans, blatant parodies of contemporary politicians who've long since been forgotten, translation error, translator bias, changes in what gender and sexual orientation even mean, there are countless touches of nuance that make absolutely goddamn certain that we'll never know exactly what any particular Babylonian meant. With no way to prove intent, what matters is applicability, and holy hell yes is there applicability there for anyone who wants to look for it. girl dick energy has a new favorite as of 13:47 on May 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 13:39
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:There actually were Zeus worshiping places who'd be all 'What are you talking about, you weird pervert, Zeus is faithful to his wife' iirc. As I understand it a lot of the "Zeus gets around" myths were the result of people trying to insert local deities/mythical ancestors into the Olympian mythos, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if most of them were largely unknown outside of the place they originated.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 13:39
|
|
|
Fun fact: Zeus, Deus, Jupiter, and Deva are all descended from the same indo-european word for "sky daddy"
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 13:43
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Fun fact: Zeus, Deus, Jupiter, and Deva are all descended from the same indo-european word for "sky daddy" smite me harder sky dadd user was banned for this post
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 13:48
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Fun fact: Zeus, Deus, Jupiter, and Deva are all descended from the same indo-european word for "sky daddy" But "Jupiter"? How does that one fit?
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 15:16
|
|
|
Wipfmetz posted:Okay, "Zeus", "Deus", "Deva" i get. It's a mutation of "deu(s) pater".
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 15:20
|
|
|
The piter comes from pater, father. The beginning is jyus shortened to just ju or iu, I guess
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 15:20
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:The piter comes from pater, father. The beginning is jyus shortened to just ju or iu, I guess Someone always blames the ju in the end
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 15:34
|
|
|
Tenebrais posted:Lore Olympus is probably a good one to bring up since it's about the myth of Persephone, and it's been in and out of fashion at various points in history whether the myth describes a loving relationship or an abduction and rape. It's had a fair few adaptations these last few years (Supergiant's Hades obviously being another notable one) and the consentual version is definitely the one that's in at the moment. The musical Hadestown has it played as a ‘they [Orpheus and Eurydice] remind me of when we were first getting together’ vibe from Persephone’s point of view, so this tracks.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 15:45
|
|
|
girl dick energy posted:Deliberately, comically so. It was setup for the 'Hades's advocate' gag. Very well said.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 15:54
|
|
|
I was reading up on the ATU folktale classification and this caught my eye:Wikipedia posted:According to author Pete Jordi Wood, Thompson intentionally omitted stories about positive homosexual characters from the catalogue, while including stories where they were either victims or aggressors. Similarly, folklorist Joseph P. Goodwin states that Thompson omitted "much of the extensive body of sexual and 'obscene' material", and that - as of 1995 - "topics like homosexuality are still largely excluded from the type and motif indexes."  folktales.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 21:28
|
|
|
I have a very interesting book "not in front of the grown-ups" which is about the survival of subversive folktales in unfriendly circumstances, and one of the things emphasised is how a vast array of European folktales was trimmed down in the 18th century to a much more limited array focusing on male heroes rescuing passive female victims. Prior to that, the balance was completely different . For pretty much every male hero, there had been a equivalent female heroine, just as resilient and brave. Girls saved their brothers just as much as brothers saved their sisters.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 21:39
|
|
|
historians and folklorists and etc: *deliberately exclude and erase all evidence of homosexuality/queer subjects, refuse to record it* normies: see, queer people are a modern invention, you can tell there were never any in history because we have no stories about them 
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 21:46
|
|
|
That doesn’t really work considering we have direct historical evidence of that that isn’t fiction. It varies by the period but there are tons of it out there
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 21:49
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:That doesn’t really work considering we have direct historical evidence of that that isn’t fiction.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 21:54
|
|
|
Zopotantor posted:I was reading up on the ATU folktale classification and this caught my eye: I just read a memoir (In the Dream House) about lesbian domestic abuse that played a lot with Aarne-Thompson classification in footnotes. I'd love to learn more! P.s. the memoir is a huge downer but unique and good and obviously the product of a MFA professor
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 21:56
|
|
|
A good website for people interested in this topic.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 22:02
|
|
|
InediblePenguin posted:I'm sorry, what exactly doesn't work? my complaint or that of the normies I'm complaining about? I guess both? Historians being up gay stuff when there are clear evidence of it, but depending on the era that evidence is hard to find. Though even then you do have theories floating around. Like there is no real hard evidence James I was gay but he was known to have male court favorites. So could they have been lovers? It’s very possible, but because of the era he lived in it’s hard to say definitively. But it’s definetly a theory that has real traction.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 22:03
|
|
|
Overall, the past was considerably gayer than what the surviving historical record indicates, because that record has been subject to various forms of censorship and exclusion. However, that doesn't make it easy, or even necessarily possible, to extrapolate from that principle to any specific case.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 22:07
|
|
|
Imagine if you were trying to reconstruct Christianity as a faith and all you had was the episode of Family Guy where Peter calls himself a god, the cover of Dante's Inferno (the game), three pages from Dante's Inferno (the book) and a unfinished Gamefaqs Dark Souls guide.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 22:13
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:Imagine if you were trying to reconstruct Christianity as a faith and all you had was the episode of Family Guy where Peter calls himself a god, the cover of Dante's Inferno (the game), three pages from Dante's Inferno (the book) and a unfinished Gamefaqs Dark Souls guide. Way to out yourself as a fake Dante's Inferno fan, real ones know the full text of inferno is in the game
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 22:14
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:Way to out yourself as a fake Dante's Inferno fan, real ones know the full text of inferno is in the game how are you supposed to read the full text when all you have is the cover of the game box
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 22:29
|
|
|
Alaois posted:how are you supposed to read the full text when all you have is the cover of the game box You climb a mountain and return with the
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 22:41
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:Imagine if you were trying to reconstruct Christianity as a faith and all you had was the episode of Family Guy where Peter calls himself a god, the cover of Dante's Inferno (the game), three pages from Dante's Inferno (the book) and a unfinished Gamefaqs Dark Souls guide. i would have made the sickest fuckin religion out of that, hell yeah
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 22:42
|
|
|
Trabant posted:You climb a mountain and return with the  P.S. I looked at the folklore directory under G for gay and didn't find anything  . I was hoping specifically for more info about Thompson's repressed archetypes. Although I do love reading through the classifications
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 22:48
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:I guess both? Historians being up gay stuff when there are clear evidence of it, but depending on the era that evidence is hard to find. Though even then you do have theories floating around. ok but like i was responding to a thing where folklorists actually literally purposefully excised content that would be read as queer today because it looked queer and they did not want to preserve it, as a lament against the fact that that's a thing people did, because that actual real-life thing that people did on purpose loving sucked, and i have no idea what you're arguing
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2022 23:45
|
|
|
InediblePenguin posted:ok but like i was responding to a thing where folklorists actually literally purposefully excised content that would be read as queer today because it looked queer and they did not want to preserve it, as a lament against the fact that that's a thing people did, because that actual real-life thing that people did on purpose loving sucked, and i have no idea what you're arguing I don’t know much about folklorists so I’m not commitenting on that
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 00:42
|
|
|
Or much else really
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 01:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 21:33 |
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:I don’t know much about folklorists so I’m not commitenting on that then why post in the first place
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 02:05
|
|