|
Sir John Falstaff posted:The Washington Post had an article a while ago that included a graphic about what a BTG might look like (at full strength, which current Russian BTGs may not be): Awesome - hadn't seen that before. Also, that means Russia lost a good chunk (if not the whole thing) of a BTG at that crossing
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 18:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 23:01 |
|
|
A.o.D. posted:The Russians quite literally have colonels and possibly even generals screaming at privates to set up a bridge HERE and drive THOSE tanks across the bridge to occupy THIS grid point. The level of micromanaging and indifference to troop risk results in what we're seeing here. Meanwhile, in a US Army multi-role bridge company, a single E6 commands a bridging section that can completely assemble an assault float bridge independently of the rest of the platoon. There are typically 2-3 bridging sections in each platoon.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 18:55
|
|
|
A.o.D. posted:The Russians quite literally have colonels and possibly even generals screaming at privates to set up a bridge HERE and drive THOSE tanks across the bridge to occupy THIS grid point. The level of micromanaging and indifference to troop risk results in what we're seeing here. There are certain advantages to this structure. To the side trying to kill their generals, I mean
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 19:01
|
|
|
fknlo posted:Seems like an effective way to target continued support from certain elements of the American political right. Like some kind of secret, hidden fascists...
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 19:03
|
|
|
psydude posted:Judging by the results from Gulf War I and II, the American approach to tank design clearly won. Gulf war 1 and 2 Were not about tank design in Any other meaningful way than ”are they reliable enoigh to drive to baghdad” and ”do they have GPS” - by the time the ground war started Iraqi army had zero command and communications remaining, their Air Force did not exist, and their AA was gone. Americans could have pulled of the thunder runs in t-62s and still won, granted they would have taken some more casualties. The only exception would be 73 easting, where the thermals were very much a wall hack. Edit yes a hyperbolic take but I’m trying to emphasize that GW1 and 2 stomps are very much product of pre-emotive dismantling of iraqi organized defenses by other means to the level where it was a boxing match where one opponent is blindfolded, deaf and has a 45 pound gym ball taped to his left leg. Valtonen fucked around with this message at 19:28 on May 11, 2022 |
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 19:24
|
|
|
Earlster posted:Thanks for this, been finding it hard to track down a good example. Yeah, I've found it useful. It's important to be careful about the numbers, though--this is just one example; a tank BTG might have more tanks, less IFVs or whatever. Also, apparently some BTGs were deployed understrength, but also there have been reinforcements. And the separatist forces, etc. probably complicate things further. Point is, it's not really possible to say that Russia deployed X number of BTGs, each BTG has about Y number of troops/tanks/etc., therefore Russia had Z total troops/tanks/etc. (Not directing this at you personally, to be clear; just that people have tried using these kinds of figures in the past to estimate Russian troop strength and it doesn't really work that way.) Sir John Falstaff fucked around with this message at 02:30 on May 12, 2022 |
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 19:43
|
|
|
Valtonen posted:Gulf war 1 and 2 Were not about tank design in Any other meaningful way than ”are they reliable enoigh to drive to baghdad” and ”do they have GPS” - by the time the ground war started Iraqi army had zero command and communications remaining, their Air Force did not exist, and their AA was gone. Americans could have pulled of the thunder runs in t-62s and still won, granted they would have taken some more casualties. The only exception would be 73 easting, where the thermals were very much a wall hack. Everyone also ignores that anyone remotely C2 capable was either dead, dying, or retired. GW1- Iraq had just come out of the devastating Iraq Iraq War. Many of their capable leaders were killed or purged before Desert Shield. What was left was destroyed piece by piece with the allies. Iraq expected a WW2 set piece battle, and had prepared for that. They just didn't expect to be Japan '44 in the analogy; and they were hoping to bog down the big offense with dug in troops and Insurgent activity in supply lines (which was no uneffective in GW2 [which should be Gulf War 3]). Their RG units fought hard with equipment that was far out of date in comparison to the US. GW2 was similar. During the Invasion, the most comprehensive and effective resistance was almost always either foreign fighters, or Republican Guard. The biggest way to slow down the push was to hit the supply units. 3ID had a massive problem with be allowed to transit nearly unmolested, only to have their Log Runs decimated by effective fighters. Having talked with vets of the Iraq Iran War on both sides, from Jundi to Generals, and I can't believe they stood at all. That poo poo was a modernized WW1 horrowshow, and it is ignored by the West.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 19:48
|
|
|
bulletsponge13 posted:Everyone also ignores that anyone remotely C2 capable was either dead, dying, or retired. Hey, I'm not going to debate you on any of that, but it sure looks like Russia is finding themselves in a similar situation at the moment, albeit as the invader instead of the defender. e: Honestly, the Iraqi Army in 1990-91 probably performed better than the Russian Army is today, all things considered. e2: And obviously my post was hyperbole.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 19:53
|
|
|
Sir John Falstaff posted:The Washington Post had an article a while ago that included a graphic about what a BTG might look like (at full strength, which current Russian BTGs may not be): They must have separate logistics units to push supply forward because that seems like a really low number of food trucks and I don't see any ammo trucks at all. So I guess that means the BTG commanders don't have much direct control over their logistics once their initial supplies run out (assuming they had a full 10 days' worth to begin with). I'm sure that's been working out just fine for them! I was curious about their EW equipment (neutralizing spy satellites,  Washington Post, really?) so I did a quick Google search and found this article written by a former Compass Call EWO. TL;DR summary of the article, the Russians seem to have completely given up on using their EW equipment early in the war for a variety of reasons that can be summarized as "complete incompetence".
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 19:58
|
|
|
bees everywhere posted:They must have separate logistics units to push supply forward because that seems like a really low number of food trucks and I don't see any ammo trucks at all. So I guess that means the BTG commanders don't have much direct control over their logistics once their initial supplies run out (assuming they had a full 10 days' worth to begin with). I'm sure that's been working out just fine for them! There was a post sometime earlier in the thread during the 40 mile convoy of
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:03
|
|
|
psydude posted:Hey, I'm not going to debate you on any of that, but it sure looks like Russia is finding themselves in a similar situation at the moment, albeit as the invader instead of the defender. It wasn't really directed at anyone, just brain diarrhea. I have no place to use the 30+ years of intense academic study I did. I have no place to use the martial knowledge, so I spray poo poo, and leave.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:04
|
|
|
psydude posted:Yeah, I don't think Ukraine gains much from invading Russia. Being within artillery range of their MSRs gives them a substantial strategic advantage, and threatening to invade will ensure that Russian forces have to remain committed to protecting the border. welp AFP posted:1 dead, 3 wounded in Russia after Ukraine attack: Belgorod governor
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:04
|
|
|
Welp what? It's not new that Ukraine has potentially been launching attacks on Belgorod. It's not an invasion, though.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:06
|
|
|
Oh I thought them using artillery on them was new?
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:07
|
|
|
Oh, I wasn't actually sure which part of the quoted post you were "welp"ing about
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:12
|
|
|
Sir John Falstaff posted:The Washington Post had an article a while ago that included a graphic about what a BTG might look like (at full strength, which current Russian BTGs may not be): And all of it tied together with a dozen fuel trucks.  
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:25
|
|
|
bees everywhere posted:They must have separate logistics units to push supply forward because that seems like a really low number of food trucks and I don't see any ammo trucks at all. So I guess that means the BTG commanders don't have much direct control over their logistics once their initial supplies run out (assuming they had a full 10 days' worth to begin with). I'm sure that's been working out just fine for them! The US primarily used a "pull" logistics system where the unit in the field makes orders for supplies and those items are delivered on demand by they supply system. It operates under the assumption that each unit commander is the most knowledgeable person to make decisions about their supply needs. The Russians is a "Push" system where supply needs are calculated in advance based off of experience, training exercises, and the application of military theory. Supplies are pushed from the army/brigade level down to the individual units. Unit commanders don't order supplies because it's already known what a unit will need for x number of days of maneuver/combat/occupation/whatever. Neither system was designed by idiots, and neither system would work under the conditions we saw in the assault of Kiev. The two main differences are that the Russians system tends to expend resources more efficiency than the American one (when done right) and the US system allows for greater flexibility while placing a greater demand on the number of personnel solely dedicated to logistical support. vvv Yes A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 20:42 on May 11, 2022 |
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:35
|
|
|
The US system also requires a logistical tracking system that knows what you have and where you have at all times, which means strong inventory controls.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:37
|
|
|
I'm not a logistics guy- but it seemed in practice that the US system in war prioritized combat material- bullets, beans, bandaids- rather than comfort items. We couldn't get cold/wet weather crap, but we always had what we needed to start a fight (note- start, not necessarily finish/win). I never got food that expired under Carter, and even when water was an issue, it's was a solvable issue. I'm seeing reports of Russians expecting ammo, and getting coats. Food expired when Dubya was still running things. The total lack of modern combat multipliers- Thermals, NODs, optics, lasers- among even the VDV- was shocking to me. Saw a war trophy VAL that the caption said was found with no ammo, not a single round- on the guy. He could have expended them all, but considering the reports of Russian ammo shortages, seems realistic.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:47
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Guderian_Xaba/status/1524352792089010177
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:50
|
|
|
That cloud looks consistent with a fertilizer explosion rather than a chemical attack, but who the gently caress is moving trainloads of ammonium nitrate in a combat zone??
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:53
|
|
|
it's not all combat zone and it is growing season
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:54
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:it's not all combat zone and it is growing season Novomykolaivka is in a combat zone. It's within artillery range of the front lines of the southern front.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 20:57
|
|
|
A.o.D. posted:Novomykolaivka is in a combat zone. It's within artillery range of the front lines of the southern front. People still need to eat and earn money. Otherwise Europe is getting a lot more refugees and less wheat.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 21:04
|
|
|
Marshal Prolapse posted:Going up zoux posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut3I6gFmlls One hell of a shot/chaser combo. Look at all those missing turrets, jfc  (e: I know this is separate incidents)
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 21:05
|
|
|
A.o.D. posted:Novomykolaivka is in a combat zone. It's within artillery range of the front lines of the southern front. I mean yeah it's all combat zone, but it's still full of farmers who have to make a livelihood and the degree of combat:zone for some random field that doesn't have a military unit living in it is a lot lower. Based off of the amount of sewn fields(which almost every single video takes place in) the farmers appear to be planting everything that shells are not currently landing in.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 21:06
|
|
|
Seems like there'd be lots of cost savings possible if they just left the turrets off in the first place
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 21:06
|
|
|
A.o.D. posted:The US primarily used a "pull" logistics system where the unit in the field makes orders for supplies and those items are delivered on demand by they supply system. It operates under the assumption that each unit commander is the most knowledgeable person to make decisions about their supply needs. That all makes sense, though I'm sure it's still a complete clusterfuck for them. If I was a BTG commander I would probably want the ability to hold my logistics people accountable for their failures. As it is I'm imagining if you're in a BTG that needs resupply then you have to: A) Hope the logistics commander didn't siphon off X% of your supplies for money B) Hope that the ammo trucks don't just dump their poo poo on the side of the road rather than drive the extra 10km into hostile territory. "I delivered the ammo, boss, see? Nothing left in my truck!" C) Hope the untrained conscripts driving the trucks can actually find you since they probably can't communicate with you at all (and that's assuming the troops needing resupply actually know where they are at) D) Hope your units get resupplied somewhat evenly and you don't end up with Company A oversupplied while Company C starves for one reason or another
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 21:07
|
|
|
Are other Russian tankers seeing these images of tanks exploding and vaulting turrets 100 ft in the sky? Piles of drowned IFVs? Seems like that would be crushing for morale, and I'd imagine that political officers are spending a lot of time censoring stuff, but is it even possible to hide this from your own troops?
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 21:24
|
|
|
zoux posted:Are other Russian tankers seeing these images of tanks exploding and vaulting turrets 100 ft in the sky? Piles of drowned IFVs? Seems like that would be crushing for morale, and I'd imagine that political officers are spending a lot of time censoring stuff, but is it even possible to hide this from your own troops? Its easier to censor it from tank crew X when their turret heads skyward 30s after tank Y's did.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 21:26
|
|
|
zoux posted:Are other Russian tankers seeing these images of tanks exploding and vaulting turrets 100 ft in the sky? Piles of drowned IFVs? Seems like that would be crushing for morale, and I'd imagine that political officers are spending a lot of time censoring stuff, but is it even possible to hide this from your own troops? IIRC Russian troops are forbidden from possessing smartphones. Some have them smuggled in, but I'd guess that they're mostly relying on word of mouth to get information. So I don't know how many actually are aware of how bad their losses are.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 21:34
|
|
|
According to Russian Telegram, they are aware they are lacking, but completely unaware of how out classed they are. 50 year old tanks VS Best of Raytheon after 20 years of endless money.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 21:37
|
|
|
aphid_licker posted:Seems like there'd be lots of cost savings possible if they just left the turrets off in the first place The first tank gets the turret, the second tank gets the ammo.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 21:48
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:I mean yeah it's all combat zone, but it's still full of farmers who have to make a livelihood and the degree of combat:zone for some random field that doesn't have a military unit living in it is a lot lower. Based off of the amount of sewn fields(which almost every single video takes place in) the farmers appear to be planting everything that shells are not currently landing in. A lot of the fields we are seeing are winter wheat that was planted last fall and is just coming up now. It’s probably too soon for anything planted this spring to be sprouted yet, they’ll be just getting started as the mud dries up.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 21:57
|
|
|
Fornax Disaster posted:A lot of the fields we are seeing are winter wheat that was planted last fall and is just coming up now. It’s probably too soon for anything planted this spring to be sprouted yet, they’ll be just getting started as the mud dries up. they're at a comparable latitude to the dakotas, no? winter wheat at northern latitudes gets a big wave of N around the end of april, so seems not-unreasonable to have a bunch of fertilizer around, or it might be preparatory for the coming growing season. in any event, a train of nitrogen fertilizer in an agricultural region seems anything but weird
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 22:12
|
|
|
zoux posted:Are other Russian tankers seeing these images of tanks exploding and vaulting turrets 100 ft in the sky? Piles of drowned IFVs? Seems like that would be crushing for morale, and I'd imagine that political officers are spending a lot of time censoring stuff, but is it even possible to hide this from your own troops? Obviously those blown up tanks are ukrainian tanks.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 22:29
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:Obviously those blown up tanks are ukrainian tanks. This is unironically what is believed by many pro-Russians and "I'm not pro russia but I just keep sharing Russia Today and Russians with attitude" people
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 22:40
|
|
A.o.D. posted:Novomykolaivka is in a combat zone. It's within artillery range of the front lines of the southern front. Yeah but look at a lot of the recent dead tank photos. Many of them are sitting dead in a freshly planted field with new sprouts coming up. Tractors are doing their normal jobs while lying in wait for the enemy it seems.
|
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 22:59
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:they're at a comparable latitude to the dakotas, no? winter wheat at northern latitudes gets a big wave of N around the end of april, so seems not-unreasonable to have a bunch of fertilizer around, or it might be preparatory for the coming growing season. in any event, a train of nitrogen fertilizer in an agricultural region seems anything but weird Look, of course it isn't weird that there's a lot of fertilizer in farming country. All I'm saying is that giant orange toxic cloud might suggest that keeping a trainload of the stuff in range of enemy artillery and/or drones is a demonstrably bad idea. A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 23:26 on May 11, 2022 |
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 23:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 23:01 |
|
|
That Works posted:Yeah but look at a lot of the recent dead tank photos. Many of them are sitting dead in a freshly planted field with new sprouts coming up. Tractors are doing their normal jobs while lying in wait for the enemy it seems. I'm an expert on farms having watched Clarksons Farm and thats winter wheat which is usually planted in the fall.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2022 23:08
|
|