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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:She is correct in the attack she is making. I understand that you consider her motives for making her attack suspect, and I share your suspicion. She will gladly give more money to the MIC as long as they leave her best Russian friend alone. There's absolutely nothing in her statement worth defending. This is especially true as we get more and more live documented evidence of Russian military war crimes and genocide. Give Ukraine whatever it needs, hell if you want to call out the MIC call out our support of the Saudis and Israel, at least that makes sense given the hypocrisy, but hot takes about giving Ukraine weapons and money to fight Russia are not it.
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May 13, 2022 23:03
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Jaxyon posted:Voter enthusiasm is the only game in town right now, if there ever was a different one before. Agree with all this and well put. Thing is, like you said, they don't have to lie. The truth and the policies that are the most popular are (ostensibly anyway) on their side of the aisle and in their wheelhouse. Is this how Republicans felt about Romney, McCain and Bush Sr? I suspect it might be, except in their case they were frustrated that none of their candidates were large enough assholes. Well, they are now and nobody on the side of the aisle I tend to vote for seems interested in doing a single god damned thing about it beyond asking me for donations. I don't know if they just don't give a gently caress, lack the political will, are old cowards or what but like you said, none of what they're doing is going to drive turnout. Obama had a charisma about him and at least said the right things, along with obviously being able to motivate the black vote, and Trump scared enough people to hold their nose and vote for anyone else so we have Biden now but, yeesh. Is this really the best this country has to offer by way of leadership or vision?
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May 13, 2022 23:09
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We can figure this out guys. What's the carbon footprint of the materiel we're providing Ukraine, and what's the carbon footprint of the materiel Russia is using to invade it? What would it be if they successfully occupy the country (we may have to use historical data for this and extrapolate), what was Ukraine's prior to invasion, and what is it likely to be after if they successfully repel the invaders? What is the carbon footprint and ecological impact of the damage to the environment caused by the invasion? Once we've answered these questions we'll know who to support from an ecological perspective. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 23:14 on May 13, 2022 |
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May 13, 2022 23:10
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golden bubble posted:Meanwhile, left-wing voter turnout is sad, and regularly gives up after one candidate disappoints them. Do you know how many politicians disappointed the anti-abortion groups for not being evil enough? Hundreds! Do you know how many Dem politicians were part of the evil ones proposing, supporting & voting for anti-choice measures from those enshrined in Casey to the so-called "fetal protection laws" passed federally and in four out of every five states to the Hyde Amendment? Hundreds! Including those now shedding crocodile tears over the erosion women's rights while exploiting the erosion for votes & money.
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May 13, 2022 23:27
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:She is correct in the attack she is making. I understand that you consider her motives for making her attack suspect, and I share your suspicion. I think it’s a good discussion but pointing out hypocrisy is not a useful skill in America as hypocrisy is a feature and not a bug. In other words, I personally feel framing the issue as “The military industrial complex does impact climate change” Instead of “Republicans who don’t care have a point that liberals are hypocrites”. Both liberals and republicans love being hypocrites so why pat them on the back?
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May 13, 2022 23:28
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BiggerBoat posted:Agree with all this and well put. They cannot come to terms with the fact their political project, the financialization and marketization of the world, failed to achieve a utopian DC wonkworld. Their political project delivered them all the power in the world and left them nothing they can possibly think of doing but defending a failed, broken model of the world. Certainly they can be driven to action by a threat to it like Russian imperialism or Chinese market manipulation, but they also are protecting it from the generations who grew up crushed by this failing system, who have had 20 years worth of wealth destroyed and yanked away to prop up banks that used the market as a casino, and a capitalist class so drowned in excess that they literally could not spend it all if they tried. And the majority of them have slid so effortlessly from or into the top tier of society they don't even realize theirs a problem. For them the whole system works. They even had a few cheats built in that juice them above what their nominal gross income would suggest. They survive because they have structured one of the only two games in town to be a closed machine.
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May 13, 2022 23:35
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Nucleic Acids posted:Joe Biden certainly is, which is why it's so strange that we have endless money for yet another quagmire but can't take care of people at home. All the poo poo we're sending to Ukraine is actually paid for via loans, basically unless they're forgiven Ukraine is going to be in debt peonage to the United States for like the next 30-50 years at a minimum, even if that poo poo is 0 interest 1 billion a year is going to be a significant portion of the taxes Ukraine collects for quite a while e: if the United States really wanted to see Ukraine succeed instead of primarily caring about hurting Russia they would be buying 90% of Ukraine's sovereign debt and forgiving it but that might get like 5 votes in favor in the Senate at best rscott fucked around with this message at 23:39 on May 13, 2022 |
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May 13, 2022 23:37
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BiggerBoat posted:Agree with all this and well put. A lot of it is being bought and sold by the lobbyists and industries, but you'd imagine that "retaining power" should be a drive for most politicians and yet they are not doing that.
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May 13, 2022 23:56
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It feels weird to have to explain this to the regulars in a debate forum, but tu quoque is a fallacy, and just because Ms Marjorie Green is a hypocrite too, that doesn't mean that her point isn't correct. It is in fact true that doing nothing on climate change while voting for more money for the polluting military industrial complex is a betrayal. Just because MTG likes it when politicians betray their promises on climate doesn't mean it isn't happening. This isn't even necessarily an anti bombing Europe argument either, if you really just want to bomb some people you could do both, you could tie climate change legislation to it and make the whole thing carbon negative.
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May 14, 2022 00:08
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VitalSigns posted:This isn't even necessarily an anti bombing Europe argument either, if you really just want to bomb some people you could do both, you could tie climate change legislation to it and make the whole thing carbon negative. Shame she is anti-Green then, because then you might have a point. Really need to stop trying to defend MTG because she had a broken clock moment, and only because her party directly benefits from relations with Russia. There's much better sources for calling out our military emissions that Marjorie Taylor Green of QAnon and MAGA fame.
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May 14, 2022 00:11
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CommieGIR posted:Shame she is anti-Green then, because then you might have a point. I don't think anyone is defending her. The position is regarding the impact this message will have coming from her.
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May 14, 2022 00:20
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rscott posted:e: if the United States really wanted to see Ukraine succeed instead of primarily caring about hurting Russia they would be buying 90% of Ukraine's sovereign debt and forgiving it but that might get like 5 votes in favor in the Senate at best Buying debt doesn’t get you on the board at a Raytheon subsidiary.
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May 14, 2022 00:29
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VitalSigns posted:It feels weird to have to explain this to the regulars in a debate forum, but tu quoque is a fallacy, and just because Ms Marjorie Green is a hypocrite too, that doesn't mean that her point isn't correct. It is in fact true that doing nothing on climate change while voting for more money for the polluting military industrial complex is a betrayal. Yeah, but you could also make that point without including "MTG is actually right about this!!" since it both still gives her credit she doesn't deserve (because the attack is made in utterly bad faith, and you can find people making that criticism who *aren't* doing it in bad faith), and you know that it's going to make people dig in against that criticism, because you're being kind of pointlessly inflammatory by talking up a point made by an evil shithead Like, yeah, evil shitheads are right sometimes, that's not news
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May 14, 2022 00:32
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VitalSigns posted:It feels weird to have to explain this to the regulars in a debate forum, but tu quoque is a fallacy, and just because Ms Marjorie Green is a hypocrite too, that doesn't mean that her point isn't correct. It is in fact true that doing nothing on climate change while voting for more money for the polluting military industrial complex is a betrayal. You can just call out Democrats for being poo poo you know. You don't need her. It's OK.
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May 14, 2022 00:33
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Lemming posted:Yeah, but you could also make that point without including "MTG is actually right about this!!" since it both still gives her credit she doesn't deserve (because the attack is made in utterly bad faith, and you can find people making that criticism who *aren't* doing it in bad faith), and you know that it's going to make people dig in against that criticism, because you're being kind of pointlessly inflammatory by talking up a point made by an evil shithead I'm not giving her credit for being an environmentalist, I'm noting that the alt right is going to seize on this self-own by Democrats and AOC especially CommieGIR posted:
So is strawmanning not against the rules anymore, or is it like a rules for thee not for me thing
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May 14, 2022 00:46
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Harold Fjord posted:I don't think anyone is defending her. The position is regarding the impact this message will have coming from her. What impact will it have? Its projection. The same group that actively feels overfunding the military highlighting emissions because their friend is on the receiving end of it? There's nothing in what she said that is anything but her projecting. VitalSigns posted:I have said several times that MTG is a hypocrite. Its not strawmanning, you guys are presenting MTG as some sort of source of truth rather than a lovely broken clock angry that their chosen geopolitical ally is being attacked by the very same MIC they would use against others were they in power. Her mentioning emissions is nothing more than projection.
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May 14, 2022 00:49
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VitalSigns posted:I'm not giving her credit for being an environmentalist, I'm noting that the alt right is going to seize on this self-own by Democrats and AOC especially I belong to a facebook group that is just conservatives being upset about AOC and if you think they have any idea what her actual stances are on anything, just LOL Mostly they're just sharing caricatures of her saying things she never even remotely said. It detached from anything within 3 standard deviations of a thing she actually did said years ago. I can not overstate enough how much what you just said doesn't affect reality at all. That train has left the station and is on Pluto.
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May 14, 2022 00:50
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CommieGIR posted:
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May 14, 2022 00:53
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VitalSigns posted:I'm not giving her credit for being an environmentalist, I'm noting that the alt right is going to seize on this self-own by Democrats and AOC especially I'm responding to this: VitalSigns posted:It feels weird to have to explain this to the regulars in a debate forum, but tu quoque is a fallacy, and just because Ms Marjorie Green is a hypocrite too, that doesn't mean that her point isn't correct. It is in fact true that doing nothing on climate change while voting for more money for the polluting military industrial complex is a betrayal. Again, yeah, the attack is true. It's also true that right wingers will sometimes find true reasons to attack liberals on. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. My point is that one of the easiest ways to turn a legitimate criticism of Democrats that is very hard to disagree with is to say "... and here's a Republican who agrees with this criticism!" since now all anyone is going to focus on is the stupid slapfight over how "right" the evil shithead is. All it's doing is bogging down the discussion and making your legitimate point more obfuscated and controversial than it needs to be.
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May 14, 2022 00:55
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VitalSigns posted:No I called her a hypocrite so I am in fact saying that she is a broken clock with this one statement, please quote where anyone said she is a source of truth You called her a hypocrite, fine, you are still going "There's a kernel of truth worth respecting here", and while you are not wrong, that kernel of truth is already easily found elsewhere than MTG. MTG is the same one who rebukes reducing our emissions, attacks green energy programs, and bemoans environmentalism. She can say whatever hypocritical thing she wants, she's only doing it to defend Putin and Russia.
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May 14, 2022 00:56
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The only people who a MTG quote talking about AOC being a hypocrite will play to, is internet leftists mad at AOC and the democrats. Which, I mean, they should be, but that's the only real audience beyond the MTG fanbase. They already are screaming for AOCs blood, it doesn't have anything to do with her being a hypocrite.
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May 14, 2022 01:02
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Jaxyon posted:I belong to a facebook group that is just conservatives being upset about AOC and if you think they have any idea what her actual stances are on anything, just LOL Well yeah of course it doesn't matter what she does if we're only talking about the opinions of people who believe every conservative facebook meme, I was operating under the assumption that we both believe there are people out there who could be convinced of the importance of carbon emissions, and when Democrats blatantly aren't caring now it makes it harder to build trust on that later. There's only so much carbon we can put into the air: you have to eat less hamburgers but politicians can have a war? There's people out there who get turned off by stuff like that imo. If you disagree that there's persuadable people then maybe you're right but then we don't have anything to talk about. Seems weird to me idk. I've seen Facebook groups where the people believe Nancy Pelosi scoops the brains out of living children to suck down their adrenochrome, does that mean it'd be politically fine if she did it for real on live TV because Republicans already believed it anyways? Because there might be more people out there we'd be forgetting about in that analysis! Lemming posted:Again, yeah, the attack is true. It's also true that right wingers will sometimes find true reasons to attack liberals on. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. My point is that one of the easiest ways to turn a legitimate criticism of Democrats that is very hard to disagree with is to say "... and here's a Republican who agrees with this criticism!" since now all anyone is going to focus on is the stupid slapfight over how "right" the evil shithead is. All it's doing is bogging down the discussion and making your legitimate point more obfuscated and controversial than it needs to be.
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May 14, 2022 01:15
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CommieGIR posted:You called her a hypocrite, fine, you are still going "There's a kernel of truth worth respecting here", and while you are not wrong, that kernel of truth is already easily found elsewhere than MTG. Nobody is saying that MTG is arguing in good faith or is a good person. Is the problem here really "you can make this argument but I'd best not hear it from MTG" ?
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May 14, 2022 01:16
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VitalSigns posted:Tbh it feels like you guys are bogging down the discussion by kneejerking to "but Republicans are BAD", yeah they are, but my point isn't whether they are good or not. A bad person with a true talking point can nevertheless be effective at using it for bad ends. Dog, you knew what the result was gonna be when you linked that tweet, and that exact thing happened. If you're more interested in having the fight about it, then go nuts, but if you wanted to address the underlying criticism, it was the worst way of doing it. That's all I'm pointing out.
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May 14, 2022 01:21
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VitalSigns posted:Well yeah of course it doesn't matter what she does if we're only talking about the opinions of people who believe every conservative facebook meme, I was operating under the assumption that we both believe there are people out there who could be convinced of the importance of carbon emissions, and when Democrats blatantly aren't caring now it makes it harder to build trust on that later. There's only so much carbon we can put into the air: you have to eat less hamburgers but politicians can have a war? There's people out there who get turned off by stuff like that imo. If you disagree that there's persuadable people then maybe you're right but then we don't have anything to talk about. The people who follow MTG aren't the 'reachable' people. You can just talk about her without MTG, because MTG adds nothing. MTG will be mad at AOC for every single things he does and will use every single thing she does as ammunition because the game here is feeding red meat to people already convinced, and to be get clicks by mentioning a popular Dem. The rest of your argument is about reaching people who can be convinced. Who definitely do exist. And do not follow MTG. To simplify, you're doubling down on the MTG quote for stupid reasons when you're actually just mad about AOC and how it hurts her with reachable people, as you should be. But what the gently caress do reachable people have to do with MTG followers? quote:Seems weird to me idk. I've seen Facebook groups where the people believe Nancy Pelosi scoops the brains out of living children to suck down their adrenochrome, does that mean it'd be politically fine if she did it for real on live TV because Republicans already believed it anyways? Because there might be more people out there we'd be forgetting about in that analysis! If Pelosi started sucking blood out of infants and I was like "oh god the people who already thought she was doing that now will continue to say she is doing that" you'd look at me like an idiot.
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May 14, 2022 01:23
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Lemming posted:Dog, you knew what the result was gonna be when you linked that tweet, and that exact thing happened. If you're more interested in having the fight about it, then go nuts, but if you wanted to address the underlying criticism, it was the worst way of doing it. That's all I'm pointing out. Maybe I can explain my point another way. If Nancy Pelosi really did eat human baby brains on live TV, Marjorie Green would definitely tweet about it! Should we be saying "hm Nancy should have thought about that, giving MTG that kind of ammo was not a good move", or should we be saying "oh well MTG is only saying that because she hates Democrats, if Matt Gaetz did it she'd defend it, so stop posting MTG it's bogging down the conversation" E: Jaxyon posted:The people who follow MTG aren't the 'reachable' people. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 01:27 on May 14, 2022 |
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May 14, 2022 01:25
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Bishyaler posted:Nobody is saying that MTG is arguing in good faith or is a good person. Is the problem here really "you can make this argument but I'd best not hear it from MTG" ? No it's that the argument makes no sense if you use MTG. The venn diagram of "MTG follows" and "reachable voters" is two circles 3 miles away from each other. VS's argument is better made if it gives almost literally anyone else ammunition. If Romney is tweeting that poo poo? Sure. She absolutely is being a hypocrite and you can just go ahead and criticizer her without promoting MTG, and it makes a lot more sense to do that. Lemming posted:Dog, you knew what the result was gonna be when you linked that tweet, and that exact thing happened. If you're more interested in having the fight about it, then go nuts, but if you wanted to address the underlying criticism, it was the worst way of doing it. That's all I'm pointing out. Also this
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May 14, 2022 01:25
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Has anyone had any luck getting some of those hard numbers? We'll crack this yet!
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May 14, 2022 01:26
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VitalSigns posted:Well sure I don't think they directly follow her, but the talking points from right-wing shock jocks get laundered and filtered into the conversation. I've had plenty of conversations with people, even liberals, who didn't realize they were repeating talking points that started with Tucker Carlson. Someone was promoting quotes from a far-right personality? My goodness!
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May 14, 2022 01:30
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Bishyaler posted:Nobody is saying that MTG is arguing in good faith or is a good person. Is the problem here really "you can make this argument but I'd best not hear it from MTG" ? Does anybody seriously need to be promoting or upholding MTG as a source of truth and knowledge? Seriously?
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May 14, 2022 01:31
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VitalSigns posted:Well my point was that the right is seizing on it, which is bad and I think important, aside from the fact that the underlying criticism is also important on its own. I mean, it's a politics thread, the attacks that Republicans are making are going to come up, it's hard to discuss what the right's strategy is without mentioning it. My friend, the right already accuses Nancy Pelosi of eating human baby brains live on TV. If you want to convince a group of people that Democrats are being lovely, then priming them to disagree with you by holding up a picture of an evil fucker, then pointing at it and saying "see look, she also thinks the Democrats are being hosed up hypocrites. If you think rationally about the issue, then you'll come to the actually correct conclusion that in this case, she's right, and you'll have to feel weird about acknowledging that. Instead, you can have an emotional knee jerk reaction, and disagree!" Do you think you've primed your audience to act emotionally or rationally, in this case?
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May 14, 2022 01:33
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Best part is literally nobody is defending AOC here and I bet someone's going to take from this that "the liberals in the CE thread couldn't handle the truth about their yass kween"
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May 14, 2022 01:35
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CommieGIR posted:Does anybody seriously need to be promoting or upholding MTG as a source of truth and knowledge? Seriously? She isn't a source of truth and knowledge, we all know that and its part of the joke. There's comedy in one of the dumbest people in congress landing punches from the left on a self-righteous progressive hypocrite. There is additional comedy in people who insist they are nothing like conservatives foaming at the mouth about MTG the way conservatives do about AOC. Bishyaler fucked around with this message at 01:46 on May 14, 2022 |
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May 14, 2022 01:37
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golden bubble posted:And its honestly depressing how easy internet leftist can be persuaded not to do the bare minimum. For 50 years, those evil fucks in the anti-abortion movement showed up to vote for anyone who said they would ban abortion. When it seemed like Roe V Wade was settled law, they showed up to vote for their cruel cause. When even conservative justices made public statements that they would not support a total ban, they kept voting. And now, the money and the voting has allowed them to succeed in their evil. Meanwhile, left-wing voter turnout is sad, and regularly gives up after one candidate disappoints them. Do you know how many politicians disappointed the anti-abortion groups for not being evil enough? Hundreds! I challenged someone before to provide evidence that the left isn't the most docile dissenting bloc in US politics that falls in line more than any other to crickets, so now I challenge you. Prove it. I maintain that the left's idiotic loyalty is exactly the reason why the only thing they're served at the kiddie table is plates of poo poo.
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May 14, 2022 01:41
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Bishyaler posted:She isn't a source of truth and knowledge, we all know that and its part of the joke. There's comedy is in one of the dumbest people in congress landing punches from the left on a self-righteous progressive hypocrite. There is additional comedy in people who insist they are nothing like conservatives foaming at the mouth about MTG the way conservatives do about AOC. LOL there it is "foaming at the mouth" i was waiting for the characterization of the thread that positions you as the calm bearer of truth that people just don't want to hear
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May 14, 2022 01:47
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Jaxyon posted:i was waiting for the characterization of the thread that positions you as the calm bearer of truth that people just don't want to hear Leftists are reminded of that position every time our warnings go unheeded, which is.... often.
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May 14, 2022 01:48
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The notion that MTG has any more power or influence than AOC and that she's speaking truth to power is hilarious. Professional wrestling as politics lmao. People who think DSA forums are laughable but SA is Serious Business talking about MTG being some philosopher speaking truth to AOC's sobbing hysteria or whatever. Jesus Christ, do not become addicted to idpol and team politics, it will take hold of you and you will resent its absence.
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May 14, 2022 01:51
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Bishyaler posted:Leftists are reminded of that position every time our warnings go unheeded, which is.... often. LOL do you think I'm not a leftist and think AOC is not being a hypocrite do you think is about AOC and not about how stupid a rhetorical tactic VS picked to use was
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May 14, 2022 01:53
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https://twitter.com/MercurialMiss/status/1525198200054874114?s=20&t=AFnjl9XFWhMipK3oAm9PvA
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May 14, 2022 01:56
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Bishyaler posted:She isn't a source of truth and knowledge, we all know that and its part of the joke. There's comedy in one of the dumbest people in congress landing punches from the left on a self-righteous progressive hypocrite. There is additional comedy in people who insist they are nothing like conservatives foaming at the mouth about MTG the way conservatives do about AOC. You guys are the one quoting her tweets, then laughably comparing AOC to MTG. She's saying these things to defend Putin and his invasion. Nothing more. She wasn't trying to be right about emissions, she's shifting goal posts to defend a fellow fascist. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:08 on May 14, 2022 |
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May 14, 2022 02:00
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