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DarkCrawler posted:Yes, it does amount to not inviting fascists to dinner. Radical for Americans, I know, and part of the reason why you have such a problem with fascism. I’m going to go ahead and say that severing does nothing more than make someone feel good about themselves while not actually resolving underlying issues.
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May 15, 2022 15:27
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DarkCrawler posted:"This guy" being Donald Trump? Don't play stupid here. You know who I'm talking about as you invoked them in the first place only to pretend you're talking about Trump now, and you're ignoring the actual argument I made as to why you trying to use this as an excuse to kickstart your favorite subject makes no sense. You had your own thread to argue it how you like and apparently convinced nobody, move on or move elsewhere with this.
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May 15, 2022 15:28
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Nucleic Acids posted:I’m going to go ahead and say that severing does nothing more than make someone feel good about themselves while not actually resolving underlying issues. It resolves the underlying issue of fascists being accepted everywhere they go. Epic High Five posted:Don't play stupid here. You know who I'm talking about as you invoked them in the first place only to pretend you're talking about Trump now, and you're ignoring the actual argument I made as to why you trying to use this as an excuse to kickstart your favorite subject makes no sense. You had your own thread to argue it how you like and apparently convinced nobody, move on or move elsewhere with this. I truly have no idea who you are talking about. I quoted a post where "this guy" was Trump. I was referring to his supporters and hapless leftists in general, if that is where you got confused. I believe that thread was closed, despite plenty of activity. Re-hashed arguments aren't clearly thread closers so I am not sure why. Anyone here managed to convince anyone opposing of anything? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 15:33 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 15:29
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Christ, it is ghoulish to use the shooting to pop off on your pet theory about how if they just hadn't invited him to dinner.
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May 15, 2022 15:32
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Gumball Gumption posted:Christ it is ghoulish to use the shooting to pop off on your pet theory about how if they just hadn't invited him to dinner. Yeah, that's not what I said, but feel free to invent things I said out of your own rear end in a top hat. Again.
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May 15, 2022 15:33
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DarkCrawler posted:It resolves the underlying issue of fascists being accepted everywhere they go. The appearance of fascism is a symptom, and focusing on treating it like a social malady does nothing to prevent its spread. Underlying material conditions and political paralysis need addressing. Social methods are just self-soothing with no actual impact on the growth of fascism.
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May 15, 2022 15:34
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DarkCrawler posted:It resolves the underlying issue of fascists being accepted everywhere they go. So, in other words, nothing material, just how an individual might feel about something.
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May 15, 2022 15:35
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Jesus gently caress there was another shooting yesterday too https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/14/us/milwaukee-shooting-deer-district.html 17 shot Total hell country
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May 15, 2022 15:36
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The friends and family of this guy did exactly what you said, congratulations! Your ideology of individual action as cure all now has a bodycount, maybe you should turn it into an NGO pitch now instead of rehashing it here where you're clearly convincing nobody. If you're going to venture down this path, I'd be more interested in hearing why your contact list culling stratagem failed in this case
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May 15, 2022 15:37
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Nucleic Acids posted:So, in other words, nothing material, just how an individual might feel about something. The number of people associating with fascists goes down. Plenty material. Tell me, what material actions the people who think you should hang out, normalize and associate with fascists in order to hope to convince them to become socialist allies achieve? Because it doesn't achieve them becoming socialist allies. selec posted:The appearance of fascism is a symptom, and focusing on treating it like a social malady does nothing to prevent its spread. Underlying material conditions and political paralysis need addressing. Social methods are just self-soothing with no actual impact on the growth of fascism. The fascists won't go anywhere if you address their "underlying material conditions", because that is not why most fascists are fascists, nor are the poor the driving force of fascism. It is a myth, usually employed by fascist-adjacent in order to fault someone else. And American fascists also love said political paralysis as well and are a large reason why it exists. Not everything is the fault of rich liberals. Epic High Five posted:The friends and family of this guy did exactly what you said, congratulations! Your ideology of individual action as cure all now has a bodycount, maybe you should turn it into an NGO pitch now instead of rehashing it here where you're clearly convincing nobody. If you're going to venture down this path, I'd be more interested in hearing why your contact list culling stratagem failed in this case Because any nutjob can get a gun in United States? Probably should do something about that. Oh yeah, the fascists won't let you. Probably should do something about that? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 15:44 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 15:41
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DarkCrawler posted:
Now you’ve gone too far.
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May 15, 2022 15:44
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The brunch/dinner divide between liberals and leftists only continues to grow.
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May 15, 2022 15:48
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I'm just glad the world still has Medieval christian determinists applying that flawless logic to modern day politics. It is a little weird to see that argument being made by people whos parents grew up in a multi family single room hut with wild animals though.
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May 15, 2022 15:57
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DarkCrawler posted:The fascists won't go anywhere if you address their "underlying material conditions", because that is not why most fascists are fascists, nor are the poor the driving force of fascism. It is a myth, usually employed by fascist-adjacent in order to fault someone else. And American fascists also love said political paralysis as well and are a large reason why it exists. in this theology, do people just become fascists spontaneously due to some sickness of the soul you're right that the poor aren't the driving force of fascism, though: it's the downwardly mobile middle. the kind of person who sees the world getting worse, from a still-objectively-comfortable position, and says with either glee or affected sorrow 'it looks like we're going to have to sacrifice yet another set of minorities to keep me in the lifestyle I'm accustomed to, drat shame, no alternative'
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May 15, 2022 15:58
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RBA Starblade posted:The brunch/dinner divide between liberals and leftists only continues to grow.
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May 15, 2022 15:58
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DarkCrawler posted:Because any nutjob can get a gun in United States? Probably should do something about that. Oh so then the problem is one of gun control and not maintaining a contact list that passes sufficiently rigorous examination then? Pretty brave of you to undercut your own argument like that. When people make fun of you for being completely poisoned by liberal performative ideology as cure all it's this sort of thing that they're talking about. It's not something you're sneaking by anybody when you focus entirely on "the left" in a place you don't even live in for not doing enough while also saying that what they ARE doing is basically fascism because it might involve people you personally do not like. You had your chance to make this argument a convincing one and failed, move on.
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May 15, 2022 16:00
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Nucleic Acids posted:I’m going to go ahead and say that severing does nothing more than make someone feel good about themselves while not actually resolving underlying issues. It can give a serious reality check that can make people change course at some point if they value empathy or family. This is also one of the many reasons why empathy is devalued and slandered amongst white supremacists as part of the radicalization process.
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May 15, 2022 16:01
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Literally entire industries, government departments and aspects of American mythos exist specifically to indoctrinate, radicalise, arm and train fascists and give them a target-rich environment.
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May 15, 2022 16:02
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DarkCrawler posted:The number of people associating with fascists goes down. Plenty material. You're looking at a broad societal problem through an individualist lens. Nobody wakes up one morning and says "welp I guess I'm going to be a fascist". It's a long process of radicalization that doesn't really have any discrete steps but one of the root causes is deteriorating material conditions. Likewise, no fascist is going to wake up one morning and say "welp my material needs are met, guess I'll stop being a fascist", and nobody is actually arguing this (this is entirely a strawman you invented). But what does happen is that broadly speaking, fewer and fewer people are impacted by that root cause that causes radicalization into fascism. You know, kind of like how if you want to reduce crime you also have to address the root causes that cause people to commit crime. It's not as personally satisfying as your disassociation theory, but neither is your theory going to magically make fascists stop being fascists.
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May 15, 2022 16:02
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cat botherer posted:There seems to be a definite uptick in liberal hostility towards leftists (not just D&D) since the SCOTUS leak. I guess its just a normal impulse to circle the wagons and try to maintain ideological unity and group cohesion when closely-held beliefs are shown to be false. Punching left is pretty much the default response from liberals whenever something they don't like happens at this point.
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May 15, 2022 16:03
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Punching left is pretty much the default response from liberals whenever something they don't like happens at this point. I mean, it makes sense, if youre busily despairing, you want to see the party you've attached your ego to do something, anything, in response, and as Build Back Better's ignominious death taught us, the list of things the modern democratic party can do is 1. Ask for money 2. Punch left people feeling impotent lash out at something they feel like they can hurt, to assuage their egos. this is why DarkCrawler tries to convince people fascism can be defeated by not talking to Grandma anymore, a spree shooter just killed a bunch of people in Buffalo, and the United States is currently sending billions of dollars in arms to people wearing the spree shooter's insignia. wreaking indiscriminate destruction, no real endgame in mind, for the sake of feeling like they still have some kind of control.
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May 15, 2022 16:13
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Willa Rogers posted:Kind of stunned at almost one out of every four Democrats being stone-cold racists according to that poll. I'm curious as to why you're surprised? At least half of those respondents have to be "I'm not racist BUT" types and with a little bit of the old Chris Rock N-word/black people routine mixed in as justification. There's also the thing where a lot of black people (who lean heavily democratic) still hate Hispanics or Koreans and poo poo like that.
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May 15, 2022 16:18
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:in this theology, do people just become fascists spontaneously due to some sickness of the soul No? quote:you're right that the poor aren't the driving force of fascism, though: it's the downwardly mobile middle. Pretty much, yeah. The idea that these people will become nice after years or decades of hanging out with them if you find the magic words and you're not actually convincing them that being fascist is just fine is pretty funny. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:I mean, it makes sense, if youre busily despairing, you want to see the party you've attached your ego to do something, anything, in response, and as Build Back Better's ignominious death taught us, the list of things the modern democratic party can do is People grab into the grandma thing because it pisses them off and they have no actual argument against anything I am saying because I am coming at them from being more leftist and uncompromising then they are but no, that is not the only thing that is required to defeat fascism. It's required though. Fister Roboto posted:You're looking at a broad societal problem through an individualist lens. Nobody wakes up one morning and says "welp I guess I'm going to be a fascist". It's a long process of radicalization that doesn't really have any discrete steps but one of the root causes is deteriorating material conditions. Likewise, no fascist is going to wake up one morning and say "welp my material needs are met, guess I'll stop being a fascist", and nobody is actually arguing this (this is entirely a strawman you invented). But what does happen is that broadly speaking, fewer and fewer people are impacted by that root cause that causes radicalization into fascism. You know, kind of like how if you want to reduce crime you also have to address the root causes that cause people to commit crime. It's not as personally satisfying as your disassociation theory, but neither is your theory going to magically make fascists stop being fascists. And again, the point is not to stop fascists from being fascists, and it never is because fascists don't, for the most part, stop being fascists. The point is to make (enough of) society hostile to them and utilize that hostility for political gain. They're currently standing in the way or any larger societal solutions. The goal is to rally enough people on the opposing side, and for decades and decades the radical left's answer is love and helping people if you only vote for us because we are not in a position to do poo poo and the radical right's was and is hate. Which one is more effective, looking at the results? In gaining control of one of the two American parties? Which one has been more effective for specifically leftist movements in the past? Do you really think you will ever have an equal political vehicle of just giving no poo poo about decorum and using every dirty and available political trick in existence without equal amount of hating the enemy as the GOP throws out? Equally persistent and reliable electorate? You really think you're going to win primaries by being nice? Didn't work last time. Biden may have been an eunuch Hindenburg after being elected, but he won because he played on the hate of Trump. Ghost Leviathan posted:Literally entire industries, government departments and aspects of American mythos exist specifically to indoctrinate, radicalise, arm and train fascists and give them a target-rich environment. There is a literal fascist political party currently being supported by 40%. So no poo poo. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:33 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 16:25
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DarkCrawler posted:And again, the point is not to stop fascists from being fascists, and it never is because fascists don't, for the most part, stop being fascists. The point is to make society hostile to them and utilize that hostility for political hane. individuals cutting fascists out of their lives might possibly make their own spaces safer but are powerless alone to affect the indoctrination pipeline and support system that has been built to facilitate and accommodate fascism and the large-scale suppression of the fascist's natural predator (communists and anarchists). the point isn't that it shouldn't be done so much as it's a myopic and extremely insufficient "solution".
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May 15, 2022 16:32
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https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1525580947290193921 The Buffalo shooter had a sonnerud (black sun) in his manifesto, a common Nazi symbol used by the neo-nazi Azov battalion. Above is a liberal who supports the Azov battalion and claims their usage is not fascist, despite all observable evidence. Should she be invited to brunch? These lines are fuzzy, and people hold incoherent beliefs - especially people whose worldview is not moored by materialism.
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May 15, 2022 16:32
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BiggerBoat posted:I'm curious as to why you're surprised? At least half of those respondents have to be "I'm not racist BUT" types and with a little bit of the old Chris Rock N-word/black people routine mixed in as justification. There's also the thing where a lot of black people (who lean heavily democratic) still hate Hispanics or Koreans and poo poo like that. Ugh, I'm not going to blame people of color for the long tradition of white racism, even when it's among white liberals. But I'd think that a political group that falls back on "it's the other guys who are racists" to the extent it does these days, and to the exclusion of just about any other political ideology, would focus more on eradicating the fascist planks from its own eyes. Then again, this is the big-tent party we're talking about, in which it's perfectly fine to reject bodily autonomy as an elected official & then have party leadership come campaign for you. (After 50 years of watching this poo poo I think I can't get more cynical but then something like this poll comes along & shocks me.)
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May 15, 2022 16:33
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The war in Ukraine could simply have been avoided if putins babushka had never called him. To bad we didn't have this info months ago
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May 15, 2022 16:33
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cat botherer posted:https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1525580947290193921 Okay that's not even remotely what that post says, they are simply saying its not unique to Azov battalion. https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1525601523941748736?s=20&t=yNqaOngdN4ljC5S1zqtwuA
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May 15, 2022 16:34
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CYBEReris posted:individuals cutting fascists out of their lives might possibly make their own spaces safer but are powerless alone to affect the indoctrination pipeline and support system that has been built to facilitate and accommodate fascism and the large-scale suppression of the fascist's natural predator (communists and anarchists). the point isn't that it shouldn't be done so much as it's a myopic and extremely insufficient "solution". It is a necessary step towards the solution at a larger level. Not a solution on its' own.
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May 15, 2022 16:35
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DarkCrawler posted:Which one is more effective, looking at the results? In gaining control of one of the two American parties? Which one has been more effective for specifically leftist movements in the past? Neither deprogramming nor severing works effectively. The effective method has been large amounts of brutal violence.
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May 15, 2022 16:35
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cat botherer posted:There seems to be a definite uptick in liberal hostility towards leftists (not just D&D) since the SCOTUS leak. I guess its just a normal impulse to circle the wagons and try to maintain ideological unity and group cohesion when closely-held beliefs are shown to be false. Could you cite your metrics or source on this uptick?
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May 15, 2022 16:36
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CommieGIR posted:Okay that's not even remotely what that post says, they are simply saying its not unique to Azov battalion. How are u posted:Could you cite your metrics or source on this uptick?
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May 15, 2022 16:36
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cat botherer posted:Yes, and guess what the most prominent group using the sonnerud symbol is? Not even remotely true, again. Its an incredibly common White Supremacist symbol. And to sum this up: Not only did you purposefully misrepresent or fail to read the entirety of her post, you are now here doubling down on it? cat botherer posted:My observation. I think many others ITT would concur. The observation from a person who cannot even fully read a twitter post, what reliable source you are.
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May 15, 2022 16:39
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cat botherer posted:Yes, and guess what the most prominent group using the sonnerud symbol is? Ah OK. You said definite uptick, so I thought you were basing it off more than your feelings.
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May 15, 2022 16:40
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CommieGIR posted:Okay that's not even remotely what that post says, they are simply saying its not unique to Azov battalion. You’re missing that posters point: the shooter and the battalion are white supremacists and using white supremacist imagery. However the liberal tweeter supports one but not the other and is trying to distance the Ukraine group she supports from the shooter even though they both have the same ideology theCalamity fucked around with this message at 16:42 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 16:40
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"Azov battalion did a mass shooting" to do what exactly? Are they trying to court Rand Paul into unlocking aid by killing minorities?
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May 15, 2022 16:40
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theCalamity posted:You’re kissing that posters point: the shooter and the battalion are white supremacists and using white supremacist imagery. However the liberal tweeter supports one but not the other and is trying to distance the Ukraine group she supports from the shooter even though they both have the same ideology Demonstrate she supports the Azov battalion, or are you actually arguing anyone supporting Ukraine is supporting Azov battalion directly? Cat Botherer is arguing that she'd defending Azov battalion: she's not. She's saying the manifesto using it has nothing to do with Azov and Ukraine and everything to do with both being White Supremacist connected by the symbol.
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May 15, 2022 16:40
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cat botherer posted:Yes, and guess what the most prominent group using the sonnerud symbol is? It's called a sheriff's star CommieGIR posted:Demonstrate she supports the Azov battalion, or are you actually arguing anyone supporting Ukraine is supporting Azov battalion directly? It's the latter.
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May 15, 2022 16:41
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DarkCrawler posted:The idea that these people will become nice after years or decades of hanging out with them if you find the magic words and you're not actually convincing them that being fascist is just fine is pretty funny. if only there was some underlying force that produced these people, which could be opposed but unfortunately, no material conditions are producing them. they just wake up fascist one day, and it is the tragic duty of the Good Leftist to immediately initiate quarantine protocols for fear the contagion might spread. well, spread further than the 40% of America that's already fascist, at any rate. you have invented here a kind of Benedict Option of the left, a dream of virtuously withdrawing from society and trusting one day it will all work itself out. this is not a political program. it is the tantrum of the defeated.
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May 15, 2022 16:41
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CommieGIR posted:Not even remotely true, again. Its an incredibly common White Supremacist symbol. It's neo-nazi apologia, just like every other time liberals try to rationalize away Azov being Jew hating freaks.
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May 15, 2022 16:41
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