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I mean there is also the opposite case where dense individuals will treat any representation of these characters as protagonists as endorsement of their actions, which is pretty dumb too.
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May 16, 2022 01:55
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Mooseontheloose posted:I know we've discussed this before but it's the this cool and awesome guy who gets whatever he wants and faces little consequences is a cautionary tale so loving rarely works it feels. Didn't that happen with the show Dallas and J.R.? As in some communist country (Romania I think?) showed episodes where J.R. was a total scumbag, but people saw how rich and powerful he was, and, even without the government making your life hell, it's a good escape fantasy. I thought I read that after that government fell, the country's new leaders invited that actor over and held parades and poo poo for him. edit: To be fair, I think it was pretty cool a drat TV drama helped overthrow a dictatorship. Cowslips Warren has a new favorite as of 02:05 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 01:56
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CJacobs posted:I mean there is also the opposite case where dense individuals will treat any representation of these characters as protagonists as endorsement of their actions, which is pretty dumb too. You see this a lot with the book banning types. "Oh, this book contains depictions of violence and murder." Well, yes, by the bad characters and it uses those themes to highlight why they are bad. Which leads to the inevitable (and hilarious) consequence of people using those same criteria to try and ban the bible.
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May 16, 2022 05:16
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Book banners know exactly what they’re doing when they pull that, though. Nobody wanted Maus removed from English class because it depicts murder. They’re dumb, but they know what they want.
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May 16, 2022 05:26
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'Depiction equals endorsement' has become a thing with tumblr progressive idiots too unfortunately. Still pops up on places like YA twitter.
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May 16, 2022 05:29
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Ghost Leviathan posted:'Depiction equals endorsement' has become a thing with tumblr progressive idiots too unfortunately. Still pops up on places like YA twitter. “Explaining things is supporting those things” is literally a thing we’ve had people say here on the forums.
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May 16, 2022 05:42
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There was a famous meltdown about that on the forums somewhere, where someone kept trying to clarify how explaining something necessarily entailed supporting it, but they could never clarify what they meant and got progressively angrier at everyone making fun of them. It was linked in the old SA sagas thread, but I don’t remember which iteration.
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May 16, 2022 05:48
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I AM GRANDO posted:There was a famous meltdown about that on the forums somewhere, where someone kept trying to clarify how explaining something necessarily entailed supporting it, but they could never clarify what they meant and got progressively angrier at everyone making fun of them. It was linked in the old SA sagas thread, but I don’t remember which iteration. Someone started a QCS thread that wanted to address the issue around the Cosby conviction getting overturned and ending their wall of text with "the explanation of an unjust system can be seen as endorsement of it" Fister Roboto posted:And yes, for the record, explaining the process of an unjust system can be seen as tacit support for that injustice. Discuss that instead of probating people.
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May 16, 2022 06:07
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What, how? Can somebody explain what kinds of botched socialization leads to this line of thinking?
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May 16, 2022 06:11
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The problem is that people are dumb as gently caress and anything more nuanced than Goofus and Gallant will be misinterpreted by somebody. I remember walking out of Starship Troopers in the theater 25 years ago and my friend saying he wanted to be mobile infantry. Even my tweenage got that he missed the point. Or maybe the shower had more of an effect on him.
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May 16, 2022 06:21
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The funniest scene in that movie is the coed naked shower scene, because Heinlein would have never allowed it. The idea of women actually fighting in the military he found abhorrent. Although I'm sure he would have enjoyed the shower scene on a more prurient level.
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May 16, 2022 06:27
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The whole Cosby verdict overturning was 100% bullshit from any angle really, though certainly possible to explain things in a condescending enough way that it sounds like excusing it in a 'This is how it's SUPPOSED to work, you idiot' tone.
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May 16, 2022 06:27
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Kwyndig posted:What, how? Can somebody explain what kinds of botched socialization leads to this line of thinking? 
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May 16, 2022 06:43
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They say it's impossible to make an anti-war war movie, but a good starting point would be not writing the script from the villain's perspective (even if the villain is conflicted about the evils of war) I'm sure there are movies like that though
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May 16, 2022 06:47
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Starship Troopers is a perfect movie with zero plot holes.
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May 16, 2022 06:56
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Starship Troopers is a perfect movie with zero plot holes. Well I guess maybe the galaxy is technically too big for the story that takes place but the accompanying visual gag is much too great to turn down
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May 16, 2022 06:59
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 "parody"
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May 16, 2022 07:04
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LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:They say it's impossible to make an anti-war war movie, but a good starting point would be not writing the script from the villain's perspective (even if the villain is conflicted about the evils of war) have you ever seen Come and See
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May 16, 2022 07:58
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Alaois posted:have you ever seen Come and See Or Paths Of Glory.
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May 16, 2022 08:06
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Kwyndig posted:The funniest scene in that movie is the coed naked shower scene, because Heinlein would have never allowed it. The idea of women actually fighting in the military he found abhorrent. Although I'm sure he would have enjoyed the shower scene on a more prurient level. On the other hand, women piloting the ships is straight out of the book. Heinlein's  had men as better infantry, but women as better pilots and space tacticians.
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May 16, 2022 08:11
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Mooseontheloose posted:I know we've discussed this before but it's the this cool and awesome guy who gets whatever he wants and faces little consequences is a cautionary tale so loving rarely works it feels. American History X: The Nazi Cut - it's just the flashback scenes leading up to the murder, and Ethan Suplee is edited out.
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May 16, 2022 08:53
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Kwyndig posted:What, how? Can somebody explain what kinds of botched socialization leads to this line of thinking? As an attempt to explain, but not endorse as it were. Essentially its the framing of the issue and why there is an awful lot of difference between someone saying "this is the reason X happened" or "X should not happen, but here is why it's been like this". The first frames things as an inescapable part of the world and beyond any human ken to argue against or effect. Like the formation of Mountains or Volcanic eruptions. Whereas the latter can be used for things that can be affected by human actions. Like defences put in place to prevent damage from Volcanoes. The person was probably arguing against someone who said "this is why the Cosby verdict was reached" and inferring, either correctly or incorrectly, that what they are saying is "this is a normal part of a system and should not be argued against or disliked".
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May 16, 2022 09:30
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It is the result of having a very childish view of the world, where things are only Perfectly Good or Perfectly Bad. Any system that ever produces <unwanted result> is therefore Perfectly Bad and must be obliterated. Anyone that does not immediately agree that obliteration is the only possible way is therefore also Perfectly Bad, and thus must also be destroyed.
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May 16, 2022 09:42
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Gnoman posted:It is the result of having a very childish view of the world, where things are only Perfectly Good or Perfectly Bad. Any system that ever produces <unwanted result> is therefore Perfectly Bad and must be obliterated. Anyone that does not immediately agree that obliteration is the only possible way is therefore also Perfectly Bad, and thus must also be destroyed. If a system consistently reproduces terrible results then yes. It's an individual thing to work out where that line is, but it is not childish to want things to be better, and sometimes the death of an older system is better than it's continuation.
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May 16, 2022 09:44
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I'm not talking about a desire to make things better. That's not childish at all, and is quite healthy. I'm talking about the sort of people who think that something is not worth doing if it is only a small step forward because only instant utopia is worth trying for. The sort of people who consider reforming a flawed setup impossible. Who take any disagreement as a declaration of war. THOSE are the people that spit out nonsense like "explaining is endorsing".
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May 16, 2022 09:50
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I mean a small step forward for you personally is usually good, great in fact! However all too often a "small step forward" as a society is nigh on worthless and will get rolled back if you don't fight even harder for it's expansion and continuation. Like, look at a huge number of different things that are now happening to stop and reverse even the small gains that have been made since the 1980's across the world. All that bargaining with society as it exists has lead us to this point, and I am personally unsure how much further we can get with it.
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May 16, 2022 09:53
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Luckily we still have plenty of time for small steps towards fixing things
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May 16, 2022 10:44
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LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:They say it's impossible to make an anti-war war movie, but a good starting point would be not writing the script from the villain's perspective (even if the villain is conflicted about the evils of war) Grave of the Firefiles
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May 16, 2022 15:10
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BaldDwarfOnPCP posted:Grave of the Firefiles That movie had to be a double bill with My Neighbor Totoro because otherwise it would've totally wrecked people.
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May 16, 2022 15:34
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LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:They say it's impossible to make an anti-war war movie, but a good starting point would be not writing the script from the villain's perspective (even if the villain is conflicted about the evils of war) Starship Troopers doesn't really have a "are we the baddies?" moment. the movie raises those issues, but our protagonists don't have that level of perspective. I think an important thing people need to learn about fascism is how it enthralls a whole population that would otherwise be compassionate people in different circumstances. Just having the bad guys be the fascists just says "Nazis are bad," which is such a simplistic lesson, it's barely worth saying. But, also I accept that Starship Troopers engages in fascist propaganda, mostly as farce, but also in the same way that is seen as normal and acceptable in other modern war movies. I don't think you can do both "hey look cool violence & gore" and also "war bad" and have the second hit harder than the first in an audience that is used to seeing pro war propaganda in the movie theatre. I think something that has soldiers for protagonists and also manages an anti-war message is Generation Kill. You empathize with the soldiers who are trying their best, but you can plainly see that the war is pointless and massively harmful to the people, even if those people aren't really depicted as characters.
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May 16, 2022 15:45
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There's an 80's OVA called Area 88 that I recommend. It's about a dude who gets involuntarily conscripted into a mercenary air force, so right off the bat he has no delusions about fighting for "honor and glory" or whatever. He just wants to do his time and get out of there. At the end of the series when he does finish his required service (several years), he finds out he's been there so long fighting just to survive that he literally can not function in normal society. He gets into fights because that's the only thing that gives him entertainment and a sense of purpose anymore and almost ends up an international criminal because of it. At the end he goes right back to the mercenary force and dies in a futile battle. It's pretty tragic.
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May 16, 2022 15:57
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Torquemada posted:Or Paths Of Glory. Truffaut wrote a review of Paths of Glory years before his "I've never seen an antiwar film" quote. He literally talks about it in the interview that quote is from. His point was that violence is ambiguous and can be read by the audience however they choose. Paths of Glory can be seen, and was seen as an indictment of the French government, not war itself by some people. The atrocities in Come and See can be viewed as the reason why war is necessary to fight that kind of evil. Steven Spielberg watched Come and See before filming Saving Private Ryan. Its the ambiguity of how people respond to depictions of violence, not the intentions of the filmmakers, that he was addressing.
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May 16, 2022 16:03
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So there's no such thing as an anti-war film because some people just like wars and think theyre good. Stunning insights lmao
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May 16, 2022 16:25
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I think the way to make an antiwar/cop film is to do it from the POV of the hapless victims, but that's a less compelling narrative than "good guys fight the bad guys and win!"
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May 16, 2022 17:04
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Gundam is probably the most successful 'anti-war war story' I can think of both in terms of monetary success and getting its point across to audiences, but... well, that 'War Is Bad/Wow Cool Robot' meme exists for a reason.
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May 16, 2022 17:06
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Maybe Catch-22 counts as an anti-war movie? Although even then the book never argues that the US shouldn't have been fighting WWII, so an argument can be made it's more a criticism of systems and processes rather than the concept of war itself.
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May 16, 2022 17:10
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You cannot make an anti-big monster movie
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May 16, 2022 17:17
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A "we're too stupid and silly to be trusted with something as serious as war" movie
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May 16, 2022 17:17
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endocriminologist posted:You cannot make an anti-big monster movie I dunno Pacific Rim was a pretty anti-big monster film but it was made by humans so I feel it's a little biased.
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May 16, 2022 17:18
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Well now I want to see a movie directed by Godzilla himself.
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May 16, 2022 18:30
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