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TCD posted:Ukraine said Russia tried to cross the river again. 
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May 17, 2022 15:43
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Soylent Pudding posted:I guess if you get enough tank hulks in the river you have a bridge to cross? that is unironically one of the ways to cross   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_Ramp_Carrier PookBear fucked around with this message at 15:54 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 17, 2022 15:51
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PookBear posted:that is unironically one of the ways to cross "Stack em up!"
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May 17, 2022 16:11
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Mikhail Khodarenok is the sanest man in Russia, and possess the clearest vision. As near as I can tell, everything he says here is simply fact. So it's not like the Russians can't know what's happening or what is going to happen, they just don't want to believe it. https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCSteveR/status/1526329765065539592 It's 6 minutes of subtitle reading, but it's a worthwhile 6 minutes. It also reflects the difficulties of trying to speak truth to someone who is thoroughly invested in the party line. A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 19:29 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 17, 2022 19:24
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Has anyone seen Gerasimov since that command post strike?
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May 17, 2022 19:32
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A.o.D. posted:Mikhail Khodarenok is the sanest man in Russia, and possess the clearest vision. As near as I can tell, everything he says here is simply fact. So it's not like the Russians can't know what's happening or what is going to happen, they just don't want to believe it. This is kinda scary how a military man presents the facts as they are and the host just goes "they were gonna erase us, we have no choice, fight to the death hurah"
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May 17, 2022 19:57
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WaltherFeng posted:This is kinda scary how a military man presents the facts as they are and the host just goes "they were gonna erase us, we have no choice, fight to the death hurah" Didn't this happen on Newsmax not too long ago?
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May 17, 2022 20:17
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A.o.D. posted:Mikhail Khodarenok is the sanest man in Russia, and possess the clearest vision. As near as I can tell, everything he says here is simply fact. So it's not like the Russians can't know what's happening or what is going to happen, they just don't want to believe it. Nice reference to Rand Paul there.
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May 17, 2022 20:22
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Saw Swedish IFVs en route to UKR. Headlines are saying Switzerland is floating the idea of joining NATO. For not wanting more NATO, Russia sure is making more NATO.
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May 17, 2022 20:49
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Stultus Maximus posted:Nice reference to Rand Paul there. You can easily see in his eyes and body language how carefully he's choosing his words. He knows the official line and knows just how far he can push it, but is also desperate to get the truth out there because he sees a looming disaster. I was a little shocked that he dared to call out how ridiculous and futile threatening Finland with nukes was.
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May 17, 2022 20:57
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A.o.D. posted:You can easily see in his eyes and body language how carefully he's choosing his words. He knows the official line and knows just how far he can push it, but is also desperate to get the truth out there because he sees a looming disaster. His article in Novaya Gazeta before the war was very forceful and didn't mince any words,if you think this was shocking you should read it. It's a really good read in hindsight because all of his predictions came true pretty much, I think you can find it by googling his name Ultimately theres no risk of them putting this guy away. Regimes whether democratic or authoritorian have to keep up the appearance of legitimacy and this guy is a patriot just stating his opinion, if it was an issue they would just stop having him on tv and tell him to stop writing articles. If anything its good to have dissenters on to temper expectations in case the government decides to change course. OctaMurk fucked around with this message at 21:05 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 17, 2022 21:03
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OctaMurk posted:His article in Novaya Gazeta before the war was very forceful and didn't mince any words,if you think this was shocking you should read it. It's a really good read in hindsight because all of his predictions came true pretty much, I think you can find it by googling his name I've recently read it. I think the difference is that in the February article he was speaking alone and for himself. In the car deo, he is opposed by someone speaking the official State account. He cannot openly contradict her, because to do that would be to publicly oppose Putin. Particularly when she starts ranting about how Russia has to fight this war for survival, the only thing Mikhail can do is shut up and look very unhappy. Edit: for those of you playing at home, here's the article in question. Google does a fair job of translation. https://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2022-02-03/3_1175_donbass.html A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 21:10 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 17, 2022 21:05
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To quote from another thread, Mikhail Khodarenok is strangely grounded in reality for a Russian propagandist, but he is part of the propaganda machine. He was and continues to be a writer for Russia Today. He largely serves to be the other side in these "debates". Normally places like Fox and Co only bring on the most pathetic token liberal to show off the other side in their "debates." But Khodarenok is actually able to debate and analyze unlike the "opposition" that Fox and Co bring on.Herstory Begins Now posted:Few things cuz people are wondering: if they were going to throw him out of a window there would've been a lot of previous opportunities. Idk the full backstory to why he is clearly freer than a lot of other people to be critical, although you'll notice he never really breaks from analysis of military matters to actually get into politics and that's probably why, but he's been saying poo poo like this for the better part of a decade. Probably longer, but I haven't looked that far back.
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May 17, 2022 21:46
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golden bubble posted:To quote from another thread, Mikhail Khodarenok is strangely grounded in reality for a Russian propagandist, but he is part of the propaganda machine. Absolutely. Someone called him the truth you have to mix in to the propaganda to make it not obviously entirely a pack of lies. That said, that's a hard headed analysis. Especially pointing out that just because Russian troops are contract soldiers doesn't make them professionals, and drafted troops can be totally professional. Even if he was actually totally in favor of the invasion his analysis would still stand: this was a bad idea, the Ukrainians are very motivated and trained and they have 42 countries arming and equipping them. Russia just doesn't have the resources to push Ukraine's poo poo in and the Ukrainians are getting stronger, not weaker. The US by itself sent enough howitzers to equip 5 artillery battalions. I bet Russia wishes they had a delivery of 5 fresh, fully equipped artillery battalions
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May 17, 2022 21:59
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Putin's Russia has generally struck a balance where as long as you don't cross generally understood red lines on challenging the regime and stick your arguments within the right ideological framing then you can have a reasonable debate over policy.
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May 17, 2022 22:07
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Alchenar posted:Putin's Russia has generally struck a balance where as long as you don't cross generally understood red lines on challenging the regime and stick your arguments within the right ideological framing then you can have a reasonable debate over policy. If you have to couch your arguments in ideaologically acceptable terms at the whim of a dictator you can not really have a reasonable debate.
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May 17, 2022 22:15
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Alchenar posted:Putin's Russia has generally struck a balance where as long as you don't cross generally understood red lines on challenging the regime and stick your arguments within the right ideological framing then you can have a reasonable debate over policy. They moved those red lines a lot at the start of the war though.
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May 17, 2022 22:19
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CainFortea posted:If you have to couch your arguments in ideaologically acceptable terms at the whim of a dictator you can not really have a reasonable debate. Nah it's not a free and fair debate obviously but it does mean you can have debates along the lines of "look we all agree that the Ukrainian regime is the result of a US coup and unfriendly and bad. Now, what should we do about it?" You can say that policy is ineffective while paying lip service to the motivations behind it being obviously correct. EasilyConfused posted:They moved those red lines a lot at the start of the war though. Oh yeah, whole bunch of Russian security think tanks suddenly found themselves on the wrong side of acceptable dissent when the line moved.
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May 17, 2022 22:51
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A.o.D. posted:Mikhail Khodarenok is the sanest man in Russia, and possess the clearest vision. As near as I can tell, everything he says here is simply fact. So it's not like the Russians can't know what's happening or what is going to happen, they just don't want to believe it. I have no idea what the guy's politics are but at least his eyes aren't painted on.
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May 17, 2022 22:59
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Carth Dookie posted:I have no idea what the guy's politics are but at least his eyes aren't painted on. 
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May 17, 2022 23:17
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Alchenar posted:Nah it's not a free and fair debate obviously but it does mean you can have debates along the lines of "look we all agree that the Ukrainian regime is the result of a US coup and unfriendly and bad. Now, what should we do about it?" You can say that policy is ineffective while paying lip service to the motivations behind it being obviously correct. I don't think "reasonable" in the sense that "no one is yelling and shouting". You can't claim a debate is reasonable when one side has to walk through a verbal landmine or be found dead of suicide with 3 shots to the back of the head. Well, I mean you can claim that but you're wrong and not being reasonable.
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May 17, 2022 23:43
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I do not get that sense that Khodarenok is merely playing a role. I mean, sure, the reason why he's on that program is to be the devil's advocate to give the propaganda a veneer of credibility, but I do not think his message is merely put upon. I do believe that he is trying to warn his nation off of an impending disaster.
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May 17, 2022 23:54
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Alan Smithee posted:surely crossing the bridge will be the Solution to All Their Problems A Bridge To Far, almost
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May 18, 2022 01:09
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It's state propaganda broadcasting. His belief, or lack thereof, in what he is saying is irrelevant. His function in that appearance was absolutely to play the role of a skittle to be knocked down by the state's messaging. Whether we agree with what he is saying is irrelevant to the narrative his appearance is a part of. We aren't the intended audience and it's probably unwise to read much of anything into that clip.
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May 18, 2022 01:13
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absolutely love how we are still in awe of Russian chess brain Russian media: "we are getting owned. Like completely loving corncobbed in the cornhole we are so hosed" "no you see this is part of Russian chess brain"
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May 18, 2022 01:23
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It's not "chess brain". It's acknowledging that a state propaganda system probably isn't going to let someone get up and say "we're hosed, poo poo's hosed" unless it serves a purpose for them. It's not CNN or the BBC, or even Fox, it's a very directly controlled system of disseminating the state's narrative. If he's saying that stuff and it is broadcast then it fits into the intended messaging. Whether it's indicative of another change in what the narrative is would be interesting, but we aren't shown enough to tell.
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May 18, 2022 01:28
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Right but you're in the world where Russia's priorities are rational and achievable. Russian leadership and military bungled the entire invasion, stepping on rakes on every step. Why do you think their propaganda apparatus is going to be any more effective or consistent?
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May 18, 2022 01:50
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LRADIKAL posted:Why do you think their propaganda apparatus is going to be any more effective or consistent? Probably because Russia's propaganda machine has been so effective in the United States.
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May 18, 2022 01:55
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cruft posted:Probably because Russia's propaganda machine has been so effective in the United States. Russia's military was super effective against 2014 Ukraine. Just because Russia was good at deploying propaganda at the US doesn't mean all of it is effective, or even pursuing the same goals.
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May 18, 2022 02:01
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cruft posted:Probably because Russia's propaganda machine has been so effective in the United States. Too bad they threw that all away.
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May 18, 2022 02:03
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CommieGIR posted:Too bad they threw that all away. Actually starting a war was enough to wake up some of the terminal leftists who were happy to laugh along when they thought Putin was just trolling the west, and then the enthusiastic war crimes that followed were too much for some of the ones who really did think Putin had a right to defend himself from the specter of NATO expansion, but I'm sad to say he hasn't quite managed to squander all of it...
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May 18, 2022 02:14
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Voyager I posted:Actually starting a war was enough to wake up some of the terminal leftists who were happy to laugh along when they thought Putin was just trolling the west, and then the enthusiastic war crimes that followed were too much for some of the ones who really did think Putin had a right to defend himself from the specter of NATO expansion, but I'm sad to say he hasn't quite managed to squander all of it... I’m sure the numbers are dwindling but yes you do still see “leftists” claiming that Russian war crimes are actually Ukrainian, if they’re not justified.
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May 18, 2022 02:16
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Tiny Timbs posted:I’m sure the numbers are dwindling but yes you do still see “leftists” claiming that Russian war crimes are actually Ukrainian, if they’re not justified. If you watch the rear end in a top hat I posted last night, he argues that there can't be any war crimes because you need independent investigators.
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May 18, 2022 02:27
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I mean I unironicly make that argument all the time. It's only a war crime if you're on the losing side and there are people who want to prosecute. Otherwise it's just sparkling being-an-awful-human-being
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May 18, 2022 02:34
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I should clarify that that is not to lesson the horror of any of those actions. Just that calling stuff war crimes is mostly meaningless until the dust has settles and you've got one side bent over the barrel to prosecute "crimes" It's to the detriment of the world that the only way to prevent atrocities is to be better armed and better trained than the foes attempting to perform said atrocities.
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May 18, 2022 02:40
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M_Gargantua posted:I should clarify that that is not to lesson the horror of any of those actions. Just that calling stuff war crimes is mostly meaningless until the dust has settles and you've got one side bent over the barrel to prosecute "crimes" I think this is pretty well recognized. Even Curtis LeMay said that had the US lost WWII, he probably would have been tried for war crimes for ordering the firebombing of Tokyo.
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May 18, 2022 02:57
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M_Gargantua posted:I mean I unironicly make that argument all the time. Excuse me, my lawyer advised me that they are to be referred to as war faux pas.
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May 18, 2022 03:01
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Shooting Blanks posted:I think this is pretty well recognized. Even Curtis LeMay said that had the US lost WWII, he probably would have been tried for war crimes for ordering the firebombing of Tokyo. If Japan had somehow won, they would have executed every American that had in their control for the crime of resisting the will of the Emperor, so whatever.
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May 18, 2022 03:15
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cruft posted:Probably because Russia's propaganda machine has been so effective in the United States.
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May 18, 2022 03:35
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Russia did a hell of a job of picking the marks that were a) Swiss cheese brain stupid as hell, b) rich as hell, and c) at least somewhat pro-Russian (oft because of past Russian business investments) and then doing whatever they could to bump those people up into positions of power. With trump, they didn’t want to control America or steal its secrets or anything. They just wanted to destroy it from within, and they did a pretty bang up job with the damage.
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May 18, 2022 04:20
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