|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:If the blood quanta of the settlers are your angle of attack, I'm pretty sure you've lost the plot somewhere. It's more that hearing a Scottish or Australian accent really drives home how hosed up it is in general. It's an entire step removed from the area.
|
#
?
May 17, 2022 13:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2024 23:21 |
|
|
A Canadian or an American or a Brit with a foreign accent is still a Canadian, American, or Brit, respectively. So it is with Israelis. The hosed up part is the settlements.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2022 13:35
|
|
|
Yes it'd be hosed up if they were all native-born Israelis - in the Theroux documentary they're doing some of the weirdest poo poo like living in terrible conditions in what amounts to a shack just to "claim" some bit of land - but when you hear some Scottish accent it really drives it home. It's like in the Empire Files interview with Israelis on the street where they all say they can do whatever to the "Arabs" and most of them are native-born to the point several can't speak English but the first two she talks to are Americans.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2022 13:47
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:If the blood quanta of the settlers are your angle of attack, I'm pretty sure you've lost the plot somewhere. I don't think anyone's really focusing on the blood quanta or skin color, so much as they're pointing out how the strongly colonialist nature of Israel is reinforced by the fact that the settler frontlines are largely made up of first-gen and second-gen immigrants. People flocking from all over the world (as far off as America and Australia) for the sake of a 21st-century Manifest Destiny. People are uprooting their entire lives and even undergoing religious conversion so they can go join in on stealing natives' land. It really highlights that this isn't just some age-old border dispute, as it's often portrayed.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2022 14:27
|
|
|
Thank you all for the informative posts about the fact that Europeans use Israel to roleplay as Afrikaners
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2022 15:07
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Thank you all for the informative posts about the fact that Europeans use Israel to roleplay as Afrikaners Excuse me please, my post was about how Afrikaners are using Israel to roleplay as Afrikaners from 30+ years ago.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2022 15:51
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:Yes it'd be hosed up if they were all native-born Israelis - in the Theroux documentary they're doing some of the weirdest poo poo like living in terrible conditions in what amounts to a shack just to "claim" some bit of land - but when you hear some Scottish accent it really drives it home. It's like in the Empire Files interview with Israelis on the street where they all say they can do whatever to the "Arabs" and most of them are native-born to the point several can't speak English but the first two she talks to are Americans.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2022 16:11
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:They're mostly immigrants too. In the aftermath of the Nakba and the various Arab-Israeli wars, much of the Jewish population of the Middle East and North Africa emigrated to Israel (not always by choice, though Israel heavily encouraged it regardless).
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2022 18:05
|
|
|
fat sassy jeshurun
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2022 01:48
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:I don't think anyone's really focusing on the blood quanta or skin color, so much as they're pointing out how the strongly colonialist nature of Israel is reinforced by the fact that the settler frontlines are largely made up of first-gen and second-gen immigrants. People flocking from all over the world (as far off as America and Australia) for the sake of a 21st-century Manifest Destiny. People are uprooting their entire lives and even undergoing religious conversion so they can go join in on stealing natives' land. It really highlights that this isn't just some age-old border dispute, as it's often portrayed. Do people convert solely to make aliyah? Thats really  and not something I have heard of before.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2022 02:09
|
|
|
jiffypop45 posted:Do people convert solely to make aliyah? Thats really I don't really mean that people are converting just to immigrate to Israel and be racist against Palestinians. However, ultra-Orthodox (or Haredi) Judaism has a lot of heavily regressive aspects that appeal to the global far-right, and national-religious schools of ultra-Orthodox thinking can be pretty blatantly political. If you strongly believe that things like theocracy, patriarchy, homophobia, or racial and religious segregation are unambiguously good things, it's easy to find a Haredi sect that might appeal to you. It's also very fundamentalist, so it appeals to the kinds of people who suddenly "find religion" one day and become ultra-religious. I'm not even going to go into the extremely weird and creepy perspective some strains of evangelical thought have toward Judaism, but I'm sure that plays a part for some of these people. So the kind of person who decides to convert to ultra-Orthodox Judaism (a very demanding flavor of Judaism which isn't very compatible with modern life), they're already probably someone with conservative sensibilities and a willingness to give up their existing life. For an American who believes strongly in theocracy and ethnic nationalism, it's pretty easy to find plenty of appeal in national-religious sects of ultra-Orthodox Judaism - and for those sects, there's no separation between their religion and their politics. So it's not necessarily that they're converting just to make aliyah, but that far-right politics inspire them to convert to far-right strains of Judaism and make aliyah. Part of it is also that, like I said above, ultra-Orthodox Judaism isn't very compatible with modern life, which leads Haredi Jews to tend to gather into tight-knit communities where they can use social pressure to enforce those religious restrictions. If someone becomes a devout true believer, they pretty much have to move to uphold those new beliefs, especially if they live out in the suburbs or country - and since they're that dedicated, they might as well move to Israel. The article PT6A posted is full of people who claimed a pretty massive spiritual awakening and then moved to Israel within a few years. More than half of them straight-up changed their names to sound more Jewish. They don't really go into much detail about why they converted or what their political views are, but they squick me the gently caress out. For example, there's a 69-year-old pastor named Andre who quit the church he'd been pastoring at for two decades, then convinced his wife and two of his adult children to convert to Judaism, change their names, and immigrate to Israel. Freaky as hell, and the only explanation they give for it is that they realized that they needed to be "cleansed" by the Torah. Now their son attends three different synagogues in Israel and thanks the Lord that he can finally give his children a good Jewish education. Or there's the guy who converted to Judaism because he saw a video by a Youtube rabbi, and he describes himself as "politically far-right" and says the only reason he's not a settler is because he couldn't find a job in the settlements. And let's not forget Edward Taljaard, a minister who converted his entire family (his wife, kids, and his kids' wives) to Judaism in the mid-90s, and then they all made aliyah to an Israeli settlement, where he had frequent "violent clashes" with the Palestinians and told a reporter that apartheid was "the best thing in the world". And interestingly, an Edward Taljaard comes up again in the 2010s in an espionage case involving the theft of South African missile technology. It's not just a matter of conversion, though. There's plenty of Jews around the world who, due to their extreme-right leanings, moved to Israel to be at the forefront of a nationalist Jewish-supremacy movement. Famous mass-murderer Baruch Goldstein grew up in New York, and only immigrated to Israel in his late twenties. The leader who inspired him, Meir Kahane, was a fellow New Yorker who only made aliyah to Israel when his domestic terrorism convictions began to stack up in America (he was also an ardent anti-communist who arranged several bombings and attacks against Soviet officials in the US).
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2022 05:52
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:I don't really mean that people are converting just to immigrate to Israel Which is why they have to be very careful about granting the right of Aliyah to converts and (by total coincidence) accept only conversions made by a recognized list of hardline Orthodox rabbis.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2022 09:38
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/DemMaj4Israel/status/1526651357935161348?s=20&t=OWQTh2uw7cExS7DLFLpfxg
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2022 15:07
|
|
|
What are progressive values in the context of Israel? Do they believe in total enslavement of Palestinians instead of the standard absolute genocide of Palestinians?
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2022 15:33
|
|
|
Terminal autist posted:What are progressive values in the context of Israel? Do they believe in total enslavement of Palestinians instead of the standard absolute genocide of Palestinians? You know, this is actually pretty offensive. There are plenty of people in Israel who *are* calling out their government's actions and *do* recognize that Israel's treatment of Palestine is tantamount to genocide. And, frankly, they are doing more than anyone here is doing to actually attempt to make change. Read about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27Tselem for a start.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2022 15:39
|
|
|
jiffypop45 posted:Do people convert solely to make aliyah? Thats really I remember seeing an article not too long ago about white South Africans that are converting to Judaism and immigrating.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2022 16:24
|
|
|
PT6A posted:You know, this is actually pretty offensive. There are plenty of people in Israel who *are* calling out their government's actions and *do* recognize that Israel's treatment of Palestine is tantamount to genocide. And, frankly, they are doing more than anyone here is doing to actually attempt to make change. Yeah but I don't really think the Dem majority for Israel are a big fan of these guys and I think that's what the poster was responding to
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2022 17:08
|
|
|
While Israel banned Nakba day, probably citing antisemitic demonstrations or violence, it has instead approved a far-right march that calls for the death of Arabs. Israel approves far-right march in occupied East Jerusalem 
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2022 21:22
|
|
|
PT6A posted:You know, this is actually pretty offensive. There are plenty of people in Israel who *are* calling out their government's actions and *do* recognize that Israel's treatment of Palestine is tantamount to genocide. And, frankly, they are doing more than anyone here is doing to actually attempt to make change. Do you get this precious when someone criticizes the US in harsh terms? We're talking about the great Satan and Satan Jr., here. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2022 01:28
|
|
|
WorkerThread posted:Do you get this precious when someone criticizes the US in harsh terms? We're talking about the great Satan and Satan Jr., here. No, I criticize the US all the time. Also I criticize Israel all the time. But I think it's important to draw a distinction between Israel and Israelis, just as it's important to draw a distinction between the USA and Americans, or Russia and Russians. Are there a lot of bad people in all of the above countries who support their insane government's antics? Yes, but there's also a lot of people who do their best to work against those things, and we need to recognize that if we want to have a hope of building bridges and actually fixing problems.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2022 01:42
|
|
|
mpf, are there any haredi communities in israel that welcome converts? my impression was those communities aren't all that open to outsiders even from other streams of orthodoxy. a convert from a non-jewish background trying to fit in sounds like a recipe for tragicomedy
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2022 02:48
|
|
|
That perception is quite narrow, plenty of communities are very open to new converts. Some of them are even nice people, but we're not talking about them ITT.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2022 09:04
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1527122140410941440 lmao
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2022 11:09
|
|
|
This is actually better than expected because the standard procedure is to hold a probe and then (badly) cover it up and say "we're innocent" which every news outlet in the world will parrot.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2022 11:39
|
|
|
In other news, looks like the Bennett\Lapid government might unexpectedly collapse as Meretz MK Rinawie Zoabi quits the coalition, stating that the government keeps shifting to the right and acting in a manner hostile to Israeli arabs and palestinians. The government was already very shaky, this could send it over the edge. https://www.timesofisrael.com/meretz-mk-rinawie-zoabi-quits-coalition-putting-it-in-minority/
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2022 13:13
|
|
|
Terminal autist posted:What are progressive values in the context of Israel? Do they believe in total enslavement of Palestinians instead of the standard absolute genocide of Palestinians? This: https://jstreet.org/ (IIRC Obama met with them so, it's Obama-level progressive at least) This might be of more interest to you: https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/ PT6A posted:No, I criticize the US all the time. Also I criticize Israel all the time. I agree with all of the above. Dans Macabre fucked around with this message at 15:01 on May 20, 2022 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2022 14:58
|
|
|
mahershalalhashbaz posted:mpf, are there any haredi communities in israel that welcome converts? my impression was those communities aren't all that open to outsiders even from other streams of orthodoxy. a convert from a non-jewish background trying to fit in sounds like a recipe for tragicomedy I haven't heard of any issues with Haredi converts getting into the community. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, of course, but the usual narrative is that converts who consider themselves Haredi are quite devoted to the Haredi lifestyle, and that Haredi communities will be reasonably welcoming to anyone who's sufficiently devoted to Haredi teachings. There's also the fact that conversion authorities in Israel are fairly strict - the average born-and-raised American Jew would not qualify as legally Jewish while in Israel (though they do qualify as legally Jewish for the purpose of immigrating to Israel). It's hard for me to believe, though, just because Haredi life is so out of sync with modern lifestyles, and it's so easy to be shunned. People can get straight-up shunned out of the community for something as simple as not having the special phone number prefix that indicates that your phone usage is controlled by a private board of rabbis that block you from calling phone numbers considered to be too secular. And even the immigrants described in PT6A's story don't really line up with the typical Israeli Haredi. There wasn't much detail about what they considered to be a Jewish lifestyle, but one thing that stuck out to me is that all the men found work in Israel or intended to do so. In Israel, Haredi men are unlikely to seek secular employment for various reasons, and this is actually one of the biggest cultural differences between Israelis who grew up Haredi and foreigners who converted. Another possibility, of course, is that they might not be integrating into normal Haredi communities. It's traditionally been rare for the ultra-Orthodox to have strong feelings on Zionism, so seeing those converts talk positively about the settlements kinda makes me wonder if they're really affiliated more with the national-religious groups, rather than the traditional Haredi. Those types will happily call themselves ultra-Orthodox, but while I don't know much about their day-to-day lifestyles, there's no way the realities of living on the settlement frontlines and engaging in terrorism can mesh perfectly with the mainstream Haredi lifestyle. emanresu tnuocca posted:In other news, looks like the Bennett\Lapid government might unexpectedly collapse as Meretz MK Rinawie Zoabi quits the coalition, stating that the government keeps shifting to the right and acting in a manner hostile to Israeli arabs and palestinians. Whoa, it's pretty rare to see pressure from the left in the Knesset. But also, I will laugh my rear end off if there's new elections
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2022 17:00
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Another possibility, of course, is that they might not be integrating into normal Haredi communities. It's traditionally been rare for the ultra-Orthodox to have strong feelings on Zionism, so seeing those converts talk positively about the settlements kinda makes me wonder if they're really affiliated more with the national-religious groups, rather than the traditional Haredi. Those types will happily call themselves ultra-Orthodox, but while I don't know much about their day-to-day lifestyles, there's no way the realities of living on the settlement frontlines and engaging in terrorism can mesh perfectly with the mainstream Haredi lifestyle. In my experience it's usually this. The lifestyle is more lax in the settlements in many ways compared to the Haredi communities and they're 100% the driving force behind the religious-nationalist bullshit Israel is up to. There are a fair few immigrants among that crowd, but the vast majority of them were born and raised in Israel. I don't have statisics, but anecdotally it feels like jewish immigrants are far more likely to settle in Ra'anana or Tel Aviv / Jerusalem than the west bank.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2022 17:46
|
|
|
It's could be just that they're normal Orthodox, not Haredi. Some of the bigger Haredi groups, notably the Satmar Hasidic dynasty, are actually vocally against the state of Israel and probably unlikely to settle in the West Bank.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2022 18:06
|
|
|
Yeah haredi communities are not known for Zionism. In fact I was at an aipac conference and there were maybe two black hats seen there. Neturei karta were protesting outside. (I’m not an aipac fan obviously, [ask] me about the conference, it was terrible)
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2022 18:35
|
|
|
What happened at the conference? Were the any particular presentations/discussions you're dying to [tell] people about?
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2022 18:55
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:What happened at the conference? Were the any particular presentations/discussions you're dying to [tell] people about? There was a panel called something like "how to be zionist with liberal values" or something like that... leon wieseltier was the main guy and in the intro talked about how he voted for reagan. My favorite panel was one with some Israeli MPs and one guy came up and said "why does Israel ask all the american jews for support when you completely poo poo on the reform and conservative/masorti movements" (which is something I ask myself every day personally) and the MPs were like "yeah it's hosed up,  "What else.... nikki haley got a longer standing ovation than anyone else who was there. (this was when she was the un person) Food sucked more than normal conference food. Dans Macabre fucked around with this message at 20:29 on May 20, 2022 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2022 20:26
|
|
|
were you doing reporting or something
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2022 21:02
|
|
|
I forgot you have to be orthodox to do aliyah as a convert. Actually I forget how seriously religious some of the israeli status quo is. My main non-apartheid image of Israel is like, Tel Aviv nightclubs. At the bare minimum you'd think they'd be happy for any white dude with a slip from a rabbi and a desire to murder arabs.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2022 21:27
|
|
|
nvrgrls posted:My favorite panel was one with some Israeli MPs and one guy came up and said "why does Israel ask all the american jews for support when you completely poo poo on the reform and conservative/masorti movements" (which is something I ask myself every day personally) and the MPs were like "yeah it's hosed up, Any day now.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2022 22:31
|
|
|
paul_soccer12 posted:were you doing reporting or something I was escorting my grandfather Xander77 posted:"Let's all pretend there aren't any non-Orthodox Jews outside Israel, and if there are, they're all about to conveniently disappear thanks to Yeah you’re either chiloni or dossi and that’s it. It’s super annoying. Dans Macabre fucked around with this message at 23:34 on May 20, 2022 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2022 23:32
|
|
|
thanks so much, i know so little about those communities and they are kind of important, so i really appreciate this kind of insight
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2022 09:36
|
|
|
nvrgrls posted:There was a panel called something like "how to be zionist with liberal values" or something like that... leon wieseltier was the main guy and in the intro talked about how he voted for reagan. lmao both of those are far more honest than I expected, so uh credit for that
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2022 10:47
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/MazMHussain/status/1529168468117016578?s=20&t=AU0pT9RBUNi75lh1MLIMqA
Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 20:06 on May 24, 2022 |
|
#
?
May 24, 2022 13:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2024 23:21 |
|
|
please stop murdering people and focus your energy on fine-tuning the emmer and the awassi sheep for our global desert future
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2022 01:54
|
|