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Haptical Sales Slut
Mar 15, 2010

Age 18 to 49
Stupid random question: why do car manufacturers, or consumers?, hate the color green? red grey white black and blue are always available, why not green?

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nitsuga
Jan 1, 2007

Amorphous Abode posted:

Hi again. Could I have some directions on what's the best way to sell a car I can't drive? I bought a good condition 2017 vehicle last year to get out of an older vehicle that was one of several possible things that's been making me very sick. Unfortunately the 2017 car slowly revealed itself to have it's own health risk, the cabin seems to be loaded with cleaners or something that burns my lungs and may have been making brain feel even worse. I did everything I could try to remove the problem outside of replacing the flooring, but at this point my health has gotten so bad that I can't physically afford to fool around with it anymore. Note that I do not believe this car on it's own is very dangerous, merely a complication to a health problem that I cannot be adding to. Much of the cleanser in the seats and flooring I was able to remove myself, and I also figured out the cabin air filter was installed backwards since before I bought it as well, lol.

Anyways, at this point I'm just going to go without a car for a while instead of trading it in, and need to get out from under this thing. How do people sell cars? Do I take it somewhere? Selling it myself seems like it would be a hard to do.

I'm sorry your situation has not improved. All the same, if you're in the USA, I'd recommend you see if a CarMax is in your area. They seem at least a little easier to work with than some, but if that doesn't pan out, you shouldn't have much to lose with Carvana. There are others, but these two are a good start and should give you a pretty fair price for your vehicle.

https://www.carmax.com/
https://www.carvana.com/

Nuts and Gum posted:

Stupid random question: why do car manufacturers, or consumers?, hate the color green? red grey white black and blue are always available, why not green?

They just don't sell as well is my guess. Some of my favorite cars are beautiful in (forest) green though.

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!
My E36 is Boston Green and I wouldn’t have it any other way

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009

Amorphous Abode posted:

Hi again. Could I have some directions on what's the best way to sell a car I can't drive? I bought a good condition 2017 vehicle last year to get out of an older vehicle that was one of several possible things that's been making me very sick. Unfortunately the 2017 car slowly revealed itself to have it's own health risk, the cabin seems to be loaded with cleaners or something that burns my lungs and may have been making brain feel even worse. I did everything I could try to remove the problem outside of replacing the flooring, but at this point my health has gotten so bad that I can't physically afford to fool around with it anymore. Note that I do not believe this car on it's own is very dangerous, merely a complication to a health problem that I cannot be adding to. Much of the cleanser in the seats and flooring I was able to remove myself, and I also figured out the cabin air filter was installed backwards since before I bought it as well, lol.

Anyways, at this point I'm just going to go without a car for a while instead of trading it in, and need to get out from under this thing. How do people sell cars? Do I take it somewhere? Selling it myself seems like it would be a hard to do.

You're the goon that thought their hood not being airtight was hurting them too right? I'm not trying to be mean but I suspect there's nothing wrong with the car and this is in your head.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

Nuts and Gum posted:

Stupid random question: why do car manufacturers, or consumers?, hate the color green? red grey white black and blue are always available, why not green?

Something like 99% of cars are bought off the lot and driven home that day. Average joe wants a silver or black or white car that they can park in their driveway that day. These sell best/fastest. They are inoffensive neutral colors and 99% of buyers might have a preferred color but they'll settle for a boring color to get off the lot that day

Basically nobody orders a car and is willing to wait 3-6 months for it to arrive new from the factory ordered to their exact specification. And even if you do, the sales guy is going to try and talk you out of it, because if you drive the car home today, he knows for sure he's getting his commission

The mustang for most years has offered green as a custom color, and bmw (and probably most other medium+ mfgs) offer a custom color option (pick anything), but you're going to pay a 3000+ dollars extra for the privlidge. Even an approved color is a ~$800 upcharge, and a 30-90 day wait. And once you pay $800+ for your special color you're less likely to sell it just a few years later

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


Hadlock posted:

Basically nobody orders a car and is willing to wait 3-6 months for it to arrive new from the factory ordered to their exact specification.

When I picked mine up I got "huh, I've never seen one in that [factory-option] colour before". Yeah mate that's because it took 9 months to get the drat thing and that was 3 months earlier than estimated.

gvibes
Jan 18, 2010

Leading us to the promised land (i.e., one tournament win in five years)
Are there any recent year supercars that include a roof scoop? I saw one today and holy poo poo was it amazing looking.

GreenBuckanneer
Sep 15, 2007

Changed my shocks on my nissan. Whoever designed the wiper motor to be in the way of some strut mount bolts should be slapped

Also getting the wipers on and off is too much of a shitshow, my dad broke my front window trying to get it unstuck 😩

Sway bar bolts were completely rusted together so we had to sawsall the bar off the old struts. Car rides much better now

Amorphous Abode
Apr 2, 2010


We may have finally found unobtainium but I will never find eywa.

VelociBacon posted:

You're the goon that thought their hood not being airtight was hurting them too right? I'm not trying to be mean but I suspect there's nothing wrong with the car and this is in your head.

Look, just because I'm a moron who doesn't know anything about cars and also just in general doesn't mean I can't also be getting hosed up on poo poo. I was just asking for knowledge in a scary situation, but yeah the sensation of someone dragging a coat hanger up my lungs every time someone uses cleaning spray is something I made up in my head, along with a bunch of other poo poo that I would probably get at least probated for sharing that has been going on for two years since I got hit by a truck. Got into a car with a gas leak that made me feel worse. Got the second car with the chemical thing and felt worse still. Been fatigued and haven't felt like I've slept in two years. Music doesn't even sound good anymore. All of my emotions feel trapped under a sheet of plastic. I don't think I'll ever be the same. You weren't trying to be mean but your comment is false and needless and it's stressing me the gently caress out. Sorry.

Amorphous Abode fucked around with this message at 00:52 on May 23, 2022

bird with big dick
Oct 21, 2015

Maybe you have fibromyalgia

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal
I'd recommend the car buying thread (but also it's the car selling thread) here, as the thing I worry about services like Carvana is they've been overwhelmed getting titles out to people quickly and just laid off a bunch of staff, so might want to pick their brains for the latest recommendations of no-hassle selling services.
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3213538

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Kia Soul Enthusias posted:

I'd recommend the car buying thread (but also it's the car selling thread) here, as the thing I worry about services like Carvana is they've been overwhelmed getting titles out to people quickly and just laid off a bunch of staff, so might want to pick their brains for the latest recommendations of no-hassle selling services.
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3213538

Carvana is actively being investigated/sued and hemorrhaging value and imploding

People have waited for titles for over a year. Imagine what happens when (not if, when) Carvana finally goes bust and you still don’t have your title.

If you can get paid quick and get the deal done by all means sell your car to Carvana, but for the love of Dog do not buy a car from them

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal

Ok Comboomer posted:

Carvana is actively being investigated/sued and hemorrhaging value and imploding

People have waited for titles for over a year. Imagine what happens when (not if, when) Carvana finally goes bust and you still don’t have your title.

If you can get paid quick and get the deal done by all means sell your car to Carvana, but for the love of Dog do not buy a car from them

Yeah, that's why I recommend that thread, it's been discussed there a bit.

Head Bee Guy
Jun 12, 2011

Retarded for Busting
Grimey Drawer
I got a 2012 TSX Wagon with 100k on the odo. Overall it’s in great shape, just had the trans and power steering fluid done, fresh brakes, etc. I’ve noticed that at higher speeds, anything 70 or over, the steering input needed to change lines is tiny, and it of course gets smaller as you go faster. So by the time i’m going like 85, I only need to move the wheel a couple centimeters to turn. What exactly causes this? I don’t want “loose” steering, but it’s not exactly confidence inspiring to feel like a sneeze could throw me into the guard rail

e: i also had a wheel balancing and alignment done recently. so they’re not wildly off

Head Bee Guy fucked around with this message at 01:20 on May 23, 2022

Amorphous Abode
Apr 2, 2010


We may have finally found unobtainium but I will never find eywa.

bird with big dick posted:

Maybe you have fibromyalgia

I don't have much body pain, but I'll ask about it at my next doctor thing, thank you.

Kia Soul Enthusias posted:

I'd recommend the car buying thread (but also it's the car selling thread) here, as the thing I worry about services like Carvana is they've been overwhelmed getting titles out to people quickly and just laid off a bunch of staff, so might want to pick their brains for the latest recommendations of no-hassle selling services.
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3213538

Didn't know there was a thread for this, thanks very much.

And sorry everyone for having a small meltdown in the thread. I'm doing what I can to feel better, and there are things to look forwards to. I hope everyone has a good day/evening.

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal

Amorphous Abode posted:

I don't have much body pain, but I'll ask about it at my next doctor thing, thank you.

Didn't know there was a thread for this, thanks very much.

And sorry everyone for having a small meltdown in the thread. I'm doing what I can to feel better, and there are things to look forwards to. I hope everyone has a good day/evening.

Health is something that can really take away from your happiness, I wish you the best, I know the struggle.

GWBBQ
Jan 2, 2005


There's lots of advice out there on tire pressure for non-OEM rims and tires, and like most advice on the internet I assume it's mostly terrible and aggressively wrong. Is there a good guide for finding the proper tire pressure for aftermarket tires and wheels?

Amorphous Abode posted:

Look, just because I'm a moron who doesn't know anything about cars and also just in general doesn't mean I can't also be getting hosed up on poo poo. I was just asking for knowledge in a scary situation, but yeah the sensation of someone dragging a coat hanger up my lungs every time someone uses cleaning spray is something I made up in my head, along with a bunch of other poo poo that I would probably get at least probated for sharing that has been going on for two years since I got hit by a truck. Got into a car with a gas leak that made me feel worse. Got the second car with the chemical thing and felt worse still. Been fatigued and haven't felt like I've slept in two years. Music doesn't even sound good anymore. All of my emotions feel trapped under a sheet of plastic. I don't think I'll ever be the same. You weren't trying to be mean but your comment is false and needless and it's stressing me the gently caress out. Sorry.
I mean this in a kind, helpful way, I'm not just throwing a one-liner at you and being dismissive. Your symptoms and what you're going through are something you need to seriously discuss with your doctor (and probably an allergist, too) rather than the AI stupid question thread. The vast majority of us are not in any way qualified to give medical advice.

Inner Light
Jan 2, 2020



Amorphous Abode posted:

Look, just because I'm a moron who doesn't know anything about cars and also just in general doesn't mean I can't also be getting hosed up on poo poo. I was just asking for knowledge in a scary situation, but yeah the sensation of someone dragging a coat hanger up my lungs every time someone uses cleaning spray is something I made up in my head, along with a bunch of other poo poo that I would probably get at least probated for sharing that has been going on for two years since I got hit by a truck. Got into a car with a gas leak that made me feel worse. Got the second car with the chemical thing and felt worse still. Been fatigued and haven't felt like I've slept in two years. Music doesn't even sound good anymore. All of my emotions feel trapped under a sheet of plastic. I don't think I'll ever be the same. You weren't trying to be mean but your comment is false and needless and it's stressing me the gently caress out. Sorry.

Why would you get probated for sharing that stuff? You could possibly make an E/N thread if you are interested in sharing, might get some helpful opinions there and replies being intentionally hurtful doesn't happen much since it's not allowed in the subforum rules.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=214

NitroSpazzz
Dec 9, 2006

You don't need style when you've got strength!


GWBBQ posted:

There's lots of advice out there on tire pressure for non-OEM rims and tires, and like most advice on the internet I assume it's mostly terrible and aggressively wrong. Is there a good guide for finding the proper tire pressure for aftermarket tires and wheels?

Find the sticker, usually on the driver or passenger door frame, that lists the manufacturer recommended tire pressures and use that. Unless you're running some crazy track rubber or something very specialized that will get you close enough and is a good starting point.

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal
Is there a good guide on the tire chalk method? Would that apply here?

randomidiot
May 12, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

Anytime tire pressure or handling is questionable, tire chalk is a valid exercise.

I used it recently. The door sticker on my car calls for 35 PSI all the way around. My front tires were wearing fine, while my rears were wearing the middle faster. Chalk method over a few days showed 31-32 PSI is better for my rear tires.

Bit of a note to follow up though - I drive an ex police vehicle. I suspect the original tire pressure was partly determined by how much weight Ford expected there to be in the trunk. The only things in my trunk are a single 12" subwoofer, an amplifier, and a spare tire (so less than 100 lbs). Cop cars typically have all the radio gear in the trunk, along with a bunch of other stuff (several hundred pounds). The civilian version of my car calls for 32 all the way around - but that results in the outside edges of my front tires wearing faster. So I run 35 front, 32 rear. Stock tire sizes. :iiam:

Most of the articles you'll find are for lifted trucks running non-stock tire sizes, but this is valid for every 4 wheeled vehicle:

https://fourwheeltrends.com/what-is-the-chalk-test-for-tire-pressure/

powderific
May 13, 2004

Grimey Drawer
I think my GX470 has a cracked exhaust manifold. It’s a common problem, so I’m thinking the ticking I hear on startup is that (and my dad had a Tahoe that cracked the manifold and it sounds similar to me.)

I’ve heard that if it goes away once the truck heats up you can just leave it, but if/when it gets worse, what am I risking by holding off on a repair? Not something I want to take on myself and apparently it’s a pain to get at them so it’s a lot of labor and the parts aren’t cheap. I don’t want drop several thousand in repairs on a $7000 truck that I’d like to replace in the next couple years. But also not sure I wanna try replacing it just now given the current market and I don’t want to break it more / die of CO.

Haptical Sales Slut
Mar 15, 2010

Age 18 to 49

Ok Comboomer posted:

My E36 is Boston Green and I wouldn’t have it any other way
Hell yeah!

Hadlock posted:

Something like 99% of cars are bought off the lot and driven home that day. Average joe wants a silver or black or white car that they can park in their driveway that day. These sell best/fastest. They are inoffensive neutral colors and 99% of buyers might have a preferred color but they'll settle for a boring color to get off the lot that day

Basically nobody orders a car and is willing to wait 3-6 months for it to arrive new from the factory ordered to their exact specification. And even if you do, the sales guy is going to try and talk you out of it, because if you drive the car home today, he knows for sure he's getting his commission

The mustang for most years has offered green as a custom color, and bmw (and probably most other medium+ mfgs) offer a custom color option (pick anything), but you're going to pay a 3000+ dollars extra for the privlidge. Even an approved color is a ~$800 upcharge, and a 30-90 day wait. And once you pay $800+ for your special color you're less likely to sell it just a few years later

That makes sense. For some reason I feel like Subaru was one of the few that offered green as a ‘standard color’ but I may be making that up.

Jaded Burnout posted:

When I picked mine up I got "huh, I've never seen one in that [factory-option] colour before". Yeah mate that's because it took 9 months to get the drat thing and that was 3 months earlier than estimated.

When I was shopping for my ‘19 golf R I almost went with a custom green, but that would have added like a year to the wait :classiclol:

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal
I want an Ioniq 5 in Digital Teal.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

Subaru isn't in the same league as Jeep Wrangler or Corvette, where the dealer might have a race yellow or electric blue model on the lot, but they're still closer to "toy purchase" territory than say a Toyota Camry, also people expect Subarus to be green, like you would a red mustang convertible

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Hadlock posted:

Subaru isn't in the same league as Jeep Wrangler or Corvette, where the dealer might have a race yellow or electric blue model on the lot, but they're still closer to "toy purchase" territory than say a Toyota Camry, also people expect Subarus to be green, like you would a red mustang convertible

what? Any enthusiast Subaru worth a drat is going to be WRC Blue (or whatever the BRZ version of that color is).

Non-enthusiast Subarus are like “Desert Grey” or “Midnight Blue Pearl” or whatever boring dealer lot color. Maybe you’ll get the odd fun Zesty Orange car.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

There are a lot of "Subaru enthusiasts" whose day job is college english professor, and go glamping once a year and really proud of their awd green forester

But yeah 16 it year old me absolutely wants a blue bug eye sti with gold rims

Toyota recently released an awd blue with gold rims trim package for their Camry and that stirred up... Mixed emotions in me

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/pictures/2023-toyota-camry-nightshade-is-a-bronzeworthy-family-sedan/

E: enjoy some b roll
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wu9fCAjAAQ

Hadlock fucked around with this message at 04:31 on May 24, 2022

PainterofCrap
Oct 17, 2002

hey bebe



This one's getting re-painted in either Nissan Rogue or Honda Element metallic orange

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Hadlock posted:

There are a lot of "Subaru enthusiasts" whose day job is college english professor, and go glamping once a year and really proud of their awd green forester

But yeah 16 it year old me absolutely wants a blue bug eye sti with gold rims

Toyota recently released an awd blue with gold rims trim package for their Camry and that stirred up... Mixed emotions in me

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/pictures/2023-toyota-camry-nightshade-is-a-bronzeworthy-family-sedan/

E: enjoy some b roll
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wu9fCAjAAQ

lol getting some real “Ramsay Bolton and Theon Greyjoy” vibes about Toyota’s 20% ownership stake in Subaru

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008






PainterofCrap posted:

This one's getting re-painted in either Nissan Rogue or Honda Element metallic orange



I kinda like the look as is

randomidiot
May 12, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

It's already been repainted who knows how many times, it's far from the original color.

I like patina as much as the next guy, but not bare primer. And he has a lot of rust repair ahead of him.

PainterofCrap posted:

This one's getting re-painted in either Nissan Rogue or Honda Element metallic orange



Gonna vote for the Nissan version. It should look really nice on that.

GreenBuckanneer
Sep 15, 2007

PainterofCrap posted:

This one's getting re-painted in either Nissan Rogue or Honda Element metallic orange



I like it as is, orange is a fine color

Also where do you find cars like this and is this a project to get it working?

randomidiot
May 12, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

GreenBuckanneer posted:

Also where do you find cars like this and is this a project to get it working?

He has a project thread here.

honda whisperer
Mar 29, 2009

My cousins 2013 kia forte ex just blew up. Looks like a common issue, and the dealers quoting 7k for a 85k mile engine installed.

Anyone have a good source for used kia engines or remans that aren't horrible? I know where to go for say honda engines but kias aren't my area.

Elmnt80
Dec 30, 2012


Amorphous Abode posted:

Look, just because I'm a moron who doesn't know anything about cars and also just in general doesn't mean I can't also be getting hosed up on poo poo. I was just asking for knowledge in a scary situation, but yeah the sensation of someone dragging a coat hanger up my lungs every time someone uses cleaning spray is something I made up in my head, along with a bunch of other poo poo that I would probably get at least probated for sharing that has been going on for two years since I got hit by a truck. Got into a car with a gas leak that made me feel worse. Got the second car with the chemical thing and felt worse still. Been fatigued and haven't felt like I've slept in two years. Music doesn't even sound good anymore. All of my emotions feel trapped under a sheet of plastic. I don't think I'll ever be the same. You weren't trying to be mean but your comment is false and needless and it's stressing me the gently caress out. Sorry.

Unless you include inline gore, post long diatribes about how you are now sexually attracted to children, post about how you want to murder random people off the street or dumb poo poo like that, I'm not probing or banning you for going through a rough patch. I may ask you to take it to a more relevant thread, but the mods here aren't generally looking to kick someone when they are down.

As for the suggestion that there may be a mental aspect to it, it is something worth considering. (coulda probably been phrased more tactfully tho. :v:) From your description, you suffered a severe accident which can be a big traumatic event. This trauma can manifest itself in many ways, especially when you place yourself in a similar situation. Even if it's not the cause of your issues, it may be worth talking to a professional just to make sure you don't have any other lingering issues from that accident. The mental aspect of accidents like that is often overlooked and can cause people some real issues. :shobon:

Another thing that may be worth having done is an allergy test focusing on environmental factors. It sounds weird, but it is possible to develop a very wide range of allergies very suddenly for seemingly no reason. My manager at my previous job had this happen to him. Any strong smells (cleaners, perfumes, scented candles, practically every spice, etc), almost all foods and even sunlight all caused him headaches, nausea, etc. It almost put him out of work until he started finding ways to combat it, stuff he could eat, etc. Something worth considering.

And hell, it may be a combination of the above or none of the above. Its always important to remember that we are dumb car nerds on the internet, not trained medical professionals. Mostly. I think we've had a few med goons in AI, but still, see a doctor that won't ask if you if you have stairs in your house.

And if you need a place to talk about in more length, E/N is always a good choice as suggested by another goon. If you have worries about the appropiateness of something, you can always PM the E/N mods first. I promise that they are genuinely some of the kindest people on this site.

In short, we just want you to be happy and healthy fellow goon so you can make us all laugh at your stories of making artisinal hand carved bespoke buttplugs for discerning clientele or whatever your deal is. :unsmith:

Elmnt80 fucked around with this message at 00:14 on May 25, 2022

Elmnt80
Dec 30, 2012


Head Bee Guy posted:

I got a 2012 TSX Wagon with 100k on the odo. Overall it’s in great shape, just had the trans and power steering fluid done, fresh brakes, etc. I’ve noticed that at higher speeds, anything 70 or over, the steering input needed to change lines is tiny, and it of course gets smaller as you go faster. So by the time i’m going like 85, I only need to move the wheel a couple centimeters to turn. What exactly causes this? I don’t want “loose” steering, but it’s not exactly confidence inspiring to feel like a sneeze could throw me into the guard rail

e: i also had a wheel balancing and alignment done recently. so they’re not wildly off

Oh hey, I know this one! So basically there are a couple different ways that cars can do this, but basically your car will adjust how much steering input you need to turn the wheels depending on your speed. Looking at the ad blurb for your car it has "Electric Power Steering (EPS) with torque-sensing, variable power-assisted rack-and-pinion steering". Basically, this is normal and is generally considered a safety measure. You only need small wheel movements to change lanes while at speed, you don't have to take your hands off the wheel for turns, etc. So long as the degree of assistance has remained constant, I would say everything is good and you should keep enjoying your very cool fancy wagon.

SpeedFreek
Jan 10, 2008
And Im Lobster Jesus!

PainterofCrap posted:

This one's getting re-painted in either Nissan Rogue or Honda Element metallic orange



I've been looking for a good shade of orange for my super beetle, I'll be interested in seeing how that turns out.

Boaz MacPhereson
Jul 11, 2006

Day 12045 Ht10hands 180lbs
No Name
No lumps No Bumps Full life Clean
Two good eyes No Busted Limbs
Piss OK Genitals intact
Multiple scars Heals fast
O NEGATIVE HI OCTANE
UNIVERSAL DONOR
Lone Road Warrior Rundown
on the Powder Lakes V8
No guzzoline No supplies
ISOLATE PSYCHOTIC
Keep muzzled...
Toyota's got an absolutely killer metallic brown that I saw on a new Sienna the other day. Sunset Bronze. As always, pictures don't do it justice, but it's drat nice.

BlackMK4
Aug 23, 2006

wat.
Megamarm
e: nevermind

BlackMK4 fucked around with this message at 03:54 on May 25, 2022

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bergeoisie
Aug 29, 2004
Apologies if there's a better thread for this.

I like cars, but am not SUPER into cars. My wife wants to buy me a open road supercar tour for a present which seems potentially super cool, but I am worried that I will die a fiery death. I'm not a reckless driver by any means (no accidents in the last 16 years) but my fast car experience tops out at a 380HP fake M BMW. Will I be cool? Or should I see if I can do a training course on a track first instead?

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