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It’s easier to kill people than it is to actually solve problems.
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May 23, 2022 16:36
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cat botherer posted:I really don't understand this conservative hard-on for executing/imprisoning the wrongfully accused. Just one of those situations where I can't put myself in their place well enough to understand their motivations. Is it really just to avoid making the justice system look weak? The arguments, in this case specifically, were: - There is a federal law (the AEDPA) that says that the federal government can only interfere in state death penalty cases in certain rare situations and with certain limitations. The constitution doesn't guarantee a right a new federal trial for a state case, so they are operating under the law as-is until congress changes it. - The AEDPA states that federal appeals can only consider the evidence presented at the original trial unless it is an issue that violates the constitution. - Having your legal counsel be negligent on one specific issue, but not overall, is not a constitutional violation when you yourself could have introduced or brought up the evidence at a following appeal. You can only get a total pass if your attorney is "constitutionally negligent." - Allowing new evidence at federal appeals that was not available at state appeals would essentially create a third trial for federal judges in all of these cases and isn't justified unless there is a constitutional violation. If new evidence is not 100% definitive and not a constitutional violation, then it is up to the state to drop the charges. The state has chosen not to in this case. The 3 liberal justices argument is basically just: "If your attorney was negligent enough to let this happen, then it is a violation of the 6th amendment right to effective counsel and all the other arguments are moot! It doesn't matter if the attorney did a good job with everything else." Sotomayor straight up says the majority are lying about being bound by the AEDPA and that they are interpreting it in a wild way without context or consideration for two other major cases that established precedent for situations like this.
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May 23, 2022 16:39
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I fully admit I'm talking rainbow farting unicorns and eternal puppies land so it'll never happen in real life because of self interest. That being said, when does it get so egregiously terrible that the liberal justices should just quit the courts and stop offering the proceedings the fig leaf of their completely irrelevant existence? They're not going to stop a single thing the Republicans want to happen by being there. All of that will happen, guaranteed. So why give it that cover? Just force everyone to admit what it is, a completely captured institution acting as an arm of one political party.
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May 23, 2022 16:47
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cat botherer posted:I really don't understand this conservative hard-on for executing/imprisoning the wrongfully accused. Just one of those situations where I can't put myself in their place well enough to understand their motivations. Is it really just to avoid making the justice system look weak? I don't even think it's about not making the justice system weak, it's that the justice system is set up so if that guy had a bad lawyer the system considers it his own drat fault. Reading through that the ruling seems to be that if the state proves you're guilty with the evidence on hand it's not an extreme failing of the court if later evidence that wasn't submitted suggests you're innocent. This does seem to conflict horribly with the whole "innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt" since the induction of new evidence casts suspicion on the idea the jury could rule beyond reasonable doubt. But the ruling seems to be that it works good enough and he's guilty enough to kill. But I'm neither a lawyer or a judge.
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May 23, 2022 16:48
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bird food bathtub posted:
I've got this question as well. It's very clear that this Supreme court is going to do everything it can to unwind every civil right it can get its hands on. Just saying "oh well, ok" isn't an option.
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May 23, 2022 16:52
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Is CPAC being in Hungary this year just a one-off, or is it permanently going to be there? Have they ditched Maryland for good?
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May 23, 2022 17:02
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Bar Ran Dun posted:As is language that equates the liberals and the fascists. Why? From what I've seen most liberal political parties and groups aren't against them. They consider them important and necessary parts of the political structure that exists. If they believed otherwise they would be doing more than simply saying that there is nothing that can legally be done. Power, ultimately, matters as much as the rule of law and sometimes one must grab the first to prevent the entire destruction of the second. What is the Liberal apparatus doing to prevent the end of various rights in the USA? What is the plan and how is it being implemented?
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May 23, 2022 17:11
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Interesting how AEDPA, a law that the current SCOTUS likes, is ironclad and has no holes in it, but other laws like the Civil Rights Act, not so much
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May 23, 2022 17:17
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Historical anachronism . We are burdened with an already existing system that carries the choices of the past in its structure. No, not simply a "historical anachronism" but a definining trait of the system. America wasn't a democracy when it was founded, when women couldn't vote, when black people couldn't vote, etc. It may have become more democratic by extending the franchise but "Hey, your vote is worth less than this guy's" still makes it very much Not A Democracy. quote:There’s a reason federalism went out of fashion and why it’s bad when other countries copy the US system. But it isn’t arbitrary, it still functions within its own rules (though just barely now.) I didn't claim it was arbitrary. I claimed it wasn't representative, which it isn't, and I claimed it was not a democracy, which it also isn't. It's own rules make it so. It was never intended to be either.
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May 23, 2022 17:17
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Zwabu posted:Is CPAC being in Hungary this year just a one-off, or is it permanently going to be there? Have they ditched Maryland for good? The 2022 conference was held on February 24 to 27 in Orlando, Florida. It being in Hungary is a one-off separate from the traditional conferences. Here is more information regarding CPAC/Hungary's current political climate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-YuZPT1NzM
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May 23, 2022 17:31
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Bar Ran Dun posted:As is language that equates the liberals and the fascists. this becomes difficult when liberals are openly arguing 'sometimes you have to arm the fascists, in order to achieve mutal short term political goals' if your goal is to oppose fascism as a political movement, the people who say 'yeah but these particular fascists need more weapons' are not your allies, and pretending otherwise is a great way for both of you to end up on the business side of fascist guns.
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May 23, 2022 18:19
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DarkCrawler posted:I didn't claim it was arbitrary. I claimed it wasn't representative, which it isn't, and I claimed it was not a democracy, which it also isn't. Our elections currently still have real consequences that directly affect our lives. Someone’s those consequences are lovely. The point where this isn’t true is with in sight. But we aren’t there yet. And preemptively declaring we are accelerates us toward that point. Josef bugman posted:What is the Liberal apparatus doing to prevent the end of various rights in the USA? What is the plan and how is it being implemented? Yeah they’re loving up not going to disagree. We seem to be unable to make necessary changes. Our system will either find a way try o do so or die. There are much worse potential futures if it does fail.
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May 23, 2022 18:21
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The arguments, in this case specifically, were: I thought Scalia already argued this in the Troy Davis case.
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May 23, 2022 18:22
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Oracle posted:I thought Scalia already argued this in the Troy Davis case. He basically did, but he didn't have enough votes before, so they just didn't hear the habeas writ. His ghost does now, so they made the full Scalia argument into a ruling. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 18:28 on May 23, 2022 |
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May 23, 2022 18:24
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:this becomes difficult when liberals are openly arguing 'sometimes you have to arm the fascists, in order to achieve mutal short term political goals' Is anyone in this thread actually saying that Ukrainian fascists need more weapons? You used quotation marks, so someone's saying that, right? I argued that Ukraine should be provided weapons, and would even go so far to say that I would rather tolerate a small fraction of them reaching the hands of the Azov battalion than not provide weapons to Ukraine at all. It's much better if there is a way to arm Ukraine without arming Azov at all, obviously. That's pretty different from "these particular fascists need more weapons"
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May 23, 2022 18:29
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Bar Ran Dun posted:There are much worse potential futures if it does fail. There are also better ones. If you believe that this is the best everything can be then I can only say that you are wrong.
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May 23, 2022 18:45
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:this becomes difficult when liberals are openly arguing 'sometimes you have to arm the fascists, in order to achieve mutal short term political goals' What are you referring to?
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May 23, 2022 18:57
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Is anyone in this thread actually saying that Ukrainian fascists need more weapons? You used quotation marks, so someone's saying that, right? pardon: would you accept 'willing to support arming fascists in the name of accomplishing mutual short term goals' as a characterization of your position? in a perfect world you wouldn't do it, of course, but you understand we have to pragmatically compromise with the right wing in the name of Getting Something Done, and in this case that pragmatic compromise includes arming nazis?
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May 23, 2022 19:05
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:pardon: would you accept 'willing to support arming fascists in the name of accomplishing mutual short term goals' as a characterization of your position? No, I wouldn't say that. I'm not suggesting deliberately arming Nazis. I am saying I can tolerate a small fraction of weapons reaching the hands of the Azov battalion, because the alternative seems to be not providing Ukraine any weapons and letting Russia steamroll them. If there's an option to support Ukraine and have no chance of weapons reaching Azov I'm all ears. Are you aware of such an option?
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May 23, 2022 19:20
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:pardon: would you accept 'willing to support arming fascists in the name of accomplishing mutual short term goals' as a characterization of your position? Ah.
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May 23, 2022 19:25
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DeadlyMuffin posted:No, I wouldn't say that. you are not suggesting deliberately arming nazis, merely deliberately taking actions as a result of which you know nazis will be armed, as a regrettably necessary way to accomplish your short term political goals. can you see why someone would consider this a distinction without a difference.
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May 23, 2022 19:31
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:you are not suggesting deliberately arming nazis, merely deliberately taking actions as a result of which you know nazis will be armed, as a regrettably necessary way to accomplish your short term political goals. I see Ukraine being forcibly annexed by a fascist Russia as a greater evil than a small number of Ukrainian fascists ending up with weapons. There are fascists on both sides of this conflict: there is an aggressor which is a fascist state (dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, etc.) and there is the victim in this conflict which has some fascist elements in its military. From my position, the lesser evil is quite clear. I believe your stance, from earlier conversations, is that you would prefer a Russian victory, which would be a much lager win for fascism, in my opinion. The fact that you support it through inaction does not change the outcome. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have the patience to scroll through your old posts.
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May 23, 2022 19:41
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Gentlemen, if you have that fundamental of a difference you may have to agree to disagree rather than bringing an argument from the U/R thread here.
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May 23, 2022 19:44
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:you are not suggesting deliberately arming nazis, merely deliberately taking actions as a result of which you know nazis will be armed, as a regrettably necessary way to accomplish your short term political goals. This gives everyone posting way too much power. The US government has decided that right wing fascists potentially getting weapons is a necessary risk and have not given anyone else much of a say in the matter. You should both just be mad that the only options presented are we run the risk of giving weapons to fascists or we do nothing at all.
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May 23, 2022 19:49
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Federally elected Democrats once again proving their intent in protecting House Dems shun primary fight against anti-abortion incumbent: quote:House Democrats have vowed to do whatever it takes to protect abortion rights. But there’s one step many don’t want to consider.  to Marie et al.State Democrats, abortion-rights activists 'incredibly frustrated' with federal inaction: quote:“I’m incredibly frustrated with the Biden administration in particular for not doing more on this issue,” said Mallory Schwarz, executive director of Pro-Choice Missouri, whose state is poised to ban all abortions as soon as Roe is overturned. “The idea that the federal government — when they have majorities — is waiting for an election in order to take action is cowardice.”
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May 23, 2022 19:51
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Josef bugman posted:There are also better ones. If you believe that this is the best everything can be then I can only say that you are wrong. The most likely outcome of the current US system failing is an actually fascist authoritarian US state.
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May 23, 2022 19:55
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Gumball Gumption posted:This gives everyone posting way too much power. The US government has decided that right wing fascists potentially getting weapons is a necessary risk and have not given anyone else much of a say in the matter. You should both just be mad that the only options presented are we run the risk of giving weapons to fascists or we do nothing at all. Even this is terrible framing. The US is giving arms to Ukraine. Unless you think the government and the people defending themselves from the Russian invasion are mostly fascists please stop referring to these skewed terms. Ceding that Ukraine will likely arm its military, which includes fascists, is not the same as directly arming fascists. The country directly arming fascists in this scenario is Russia, which is notorious for directly funding right-wing groups all over the world, much like the US has done in the past with horrific results to show for it. Koos Group posted:Gentlemen, if you have that fundamental of a difference you may have to agree to disagree rather than bringing an argument from the U/R thread here. it's not a fundamental disagreement, it's one person who appears to favor Ukraine disarming and becoming part of fascist Russia characterizing aiding their defense as being pro-nazi and then labeling anyone who supports them defending themselves as also pro-nazi. it's disingenuous and should be probed but here we are. The light hand applied to this level of discourse poisoning is part of a more significant problem.
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May 23, 2022 19:57
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:you are not suggesting deliberately arming nazis, merely deliberately taking actions as a result of which you know nazis will be armed, as a regrettably necessary way to accomplish your short term political goals. What a vapid, stupid, stupid argument. "Political goals"? Russia is attempting to conquer Ukraine and install a puppet authoritarian government while murdering and raping civilians and bombing the country to oblivion. No sensible government would scuttle an experienced fighting force just because a large segment of them are far right if your literal statehood is on the line. You'd probably be the first hiding behind Azov Nazis while they shoot at Russian soldiers trying to kill you. And this is not criticism of what many of us would do, just pointing out that posts like this are deeply stupid. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 23, 2022 19:57
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Willa Rogers posted:Federally elected Democrats once again proving their intent in protecting I’m glad that they also see the Dem leadership is treating the impending death of Roe as another fundraising boon. Because it absolutely disgusts me and it’s just another example of why this party is doomed, and will probably doom us all to authoritarian rule.
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May 23, 2022 20:02
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:it's not a fundamental disagreement, it's one person who appears to favor Ukraine disarming and becoming part of fascist Russia characterizing aiding their defense as being pro-nazi and then labeling anyone who supports them defending themselves as also pro-nazi. it's disingenuous and should be probed but here we are. The light hand applied to this level of discourse poisoning is part of a more significant problem. While Mr. Balls' position would appear to have flaws that open it up to criticism, the criticism thus far has been arguments most of us have seen before about a subject that is outside the scope of this thread. That is why I'd prefer discussion to move on.
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May 23, 2022 20:07
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small butter posted:What a vapid, stupid, stupid argument. "Political goals"? Russia is attempting to conquer Ukraine and install a puppet authoritarian government while murdering and raping civilians and bombing the country to oblivion. No sensible government would scuttle an experienced fighting force just because a large segment of them are far right if your literal statehood is on the line. You'd probably be the first hiding behind Azov Nazis while they shoot at Russian soldiers trying to kill you. And this is not criticism of what many of us would do, just pointing out that posts like this are deeply stupid. as we've already seen, when you arm nazis, the first use of those arms is not fighting the enemies of liberalism, it is allowing the nazis to purge their territory of Undesirables. as a result, some of us view arming fascists as a non-starter. others of us are willing to pragmatically write those victims off, because they consider armed fascists a lesser evil. as I was saying to Bar Ran Dun originally: this is important information to keep in mind, if you are trying to oppose the rise of fascism. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 23, 2022 20:09
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The most likely outcome of the current US system failing is an actually fascist authoritarian US state. The increasingly fascist behavior of the US system is there to keep the system running, not something that occurs in its absence
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May 23, 2022 20:20
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:The increasingly fascist behavior of the US system is there to keep the system running, not something that occurs in its absence Controls don’t work the way you think they do. An erratic system wildly swinging back and forth is an undamped one, uncontrolled and indicating potential catastrophic failure.
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May 23, 2022 20:50
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More troubles for Cawthorn https://twitter.com/ryanobles/status/1528801416512405504?s=21&t=PlgjxgqHzvsaCoKfHvXYBQ
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May 23, 2022 20:53
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cat botherer posted:I really don't understand this conservative hard-on for executing/imprisoning the wrongfully accused. Just one of those situations where I can't put myself in their place well enough to understand their motivations. Is it really just to avoid making the justice system look weak? It's an inherently violent ideology. That's it.
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May 23, 2022 20:57
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Controls don’t work the way you think they do. An erratic system wildly swinging back and forth is an undamped one, uncontrolled and indicating potential catastrophic failure. It hasn't swung wildly back and forth, though. Overall it's moved in a pretty straight line
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May 23, 2022 21:11
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cat botherer posted:I really don't understand this conservative hard-on for executing/imprisoning the wrongfully accused. Just one of those situations where I can't put myself in their place well enough to understand their motivations. Is it really just to avoid making the justice system look weak? You'd think it would fly in the face of all the Jesus' teachings they like to claim they base their lives on but all they've read is "An Eye for an Eye". It's just vengeance, punishment and pretending to be on god's side and thinking that's what he'd want. They have a real hard on for the death penalty,which has always struck me as odd given how much they like to rail about the power of the government. I don't pretend to understand and, by and large, don't care for religious people. At least the aggressive vocal ones. I wish I believed in all that Jesus Will Rise poo poo just to be able to hope to see the look on their faces when he explains that none of this is what he had in mind and they have all failed him while they stare up at all the poor people rising up into heaven as the world and their money burns all around them. But you know what? Deep down most of them know Christ isn't returning and very few of them really believe in any of it. They don't behave like they do and we can see it by their actions. It's just easier to be a greedy rear end in a top hat if you spray on a lot of god cologne to mask the scent of what you're really about. E: Also, it disproportionately effects black people and minorities BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 21:45 on May 23, 2022 |
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May 23, 2022 21:35
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Our elections currently still have real consequences that directly affect our lives. Someone’s those consequences are lovely. The point where this isn’t true is with in sight. But we aren’t there yet. And preemptively declaring we are accelerates us toward that point. Yes, your elections have consequences, and they always have had. That doesn't make them democratic elections any more then an U.S. election was democratic in the year 1800, and the makeup of the Congress is not representative. The mere existence of elections does not make a country a representative democracy. Russia has elections.
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May 23, 2022 21:58
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DarkCrawler posted:Yes, your elections have consequences, and they always have had. That doesn't make them democratic elections any more then an U.S. election was democratic in the year 1800, and the makeup of the Congress is not representative. Do you think the quality of Russian elections and US elections are currently equivalent? I do not think that aligns with reality. While the US elections are hardly as good as they could be or should be in all locations, comparing it to Russian elections seems like a bit of a stretch.
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May 23, 2022 22:03
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Do you think the quality of Russian elections and US elections are currently equivalent? I do not think that aligns with reality. While the US elections are hardly as good as they could be or should be in all locations, comparing it to Russian elections seems like a bit of a stretch. No, they're not equivalent. Russia's are worse. Neither are democratic.
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May 23, 2022 22:05
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