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I really don't know how to react to this tragedy from an emotional level as a father. And I can't really look around to see how to feel, because honestly, every reaction is that, a reaction. People (speaking generally, not thread members) who were saying one week ago that minorities should be able to get weapons to defend themselves against a fascist state are now screaming "cops should be able to take your guns away at will without due cause" or "There's no guns in China and they have no mass shootings". Those people aren't expressing any actual beliefs, they are just reacting, and I feel like I'm being gaslit. I don't know what the solution is other than a complete overhaul of American gun culture, as in its destruction as a "culture", which is a slow process at best and impossible at worst. You just have to send your kids to school and hope that there isn't some incel that loses their poo poo. I still believe that my mixed race son has the right to defend his life against people who are around him, especially when things are going to be getting so much worse for him. And yet the "right" thing to do is for him to voluntarily hand all of his power over to the cops who wouldn't do poo poo to help him. How do I square this contradiction other than just accepting that we're completely doomed to this happening again? I have no idea. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 23:57 on May 24, 2022 |
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May 24, 2022 23:52
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CuddleCryptid posted:I really don't know how to react to this tragedy from an emotional level as a father. And I can't really look around to see how to feel, because honestly, every reaction is that, a reaction. People (speaking generally, not thread members) who were saying one week ago that minorities should be able to get weapons to defend themselves against a fascist state are now screaming "cops should be able to take your guns away at will without due cause" or "There's no guns in China and they have no mass shootings". Those people aren't expressing any actual beliefs, they are just reacting, and I feel like I'm being gaslit. I don't know what the solution is other than a complete overhaul of American gun culture, as in its destruction as a "culture", which is a slow process at best and impossible at worst. They are not the same people. That is the issue. It isn't people changing their minds. It is the "We NEED guns" crowd understandably growing silent in the wake of a mass shooting versus the people who have issues with guns growing louder.
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May 24, 2022 23:54
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pthighs posted:And for those people with kids, as mentioned above, I always make sure to remind them that they are far more likely to get hit and killed by a car than killed by a gun (since we don't own guns). Good luck fitting a car through the front door of an elementary school. Maybe a smart car. Which I suppose is exactly the kind of car you would encounter in a school. Alright you've convinced me
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May 24, 2022 23:55
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Willa Rogers posted:^^^ yeah, a few people were doing that; look over the last few pages & also see social media responses. Not chiming in on parent chat, but it got me thinking. Basically all the men in my family were soldiers going back through the world wars. Interactions with my relatives naturally lead to questions like "what's a Nazi" and "why did Granddad kill people; the Bible says not to kill" and "what happens if Dad has to go fight the Russians." In retrospect I'm really lucky I wasn't an anxious child lol.
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May 24, 2022 23:59
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I wonder if the US is just going to start seeing a massive population decrease in the coming decades. I can't think of a (western) country that has made it more hostile to have kids than the US. I wake up every day thankful that I never wanted any, and never had any because I see what parents go through here and I don't know how they maintain their sanity. I look at the cost of having a baby, the cost of daycare (because you know both parents have to work) the added costs to already astronomical insurance rates for people with kids, food costs are through the roof which is really painful when you have a family to feed, and of course housing and gas costs are more when you have a family. And to top it off, you can't even be sure your kids will be safe when their in class. While you're working your rear end off to provide for them some psycho could walk into their school and start shooting up the place. Im sure plenty of people that actually want to have kids are having second thoughts about it these days.
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May 25, 2022 00:01
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quote:Proposed universal background checks A brave reporter could ask if he’d be in favor of getting rid of the filibuster if it was to pass his own bill and prevent things like this.
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May 25, 2022 00:02
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:And telling someone they are traumatizing their kids by not reminding them that Dems are bad too and being honest about gun culture right after two dozen kids were gunned down is pretty lovely. That's not what I was doing, though; I was pointing out (1) that I didn't think that tack was particularly reassuring from a kid's POV, and (2) that the bedrock reality to the poster would be flipped on its head by their political enemies. And where does that leave us for any sort of solution? Vote harder?
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May 25, 2022 00:03
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Discendo Vox posted:The NRA and the underlying gun lobby are actually at the weakest and most fragmented they've been in a long time. There's a majority consensus in favor of at least baseline gun control reforms, improved reporting on gun violence (which has helped recent media coverage drive the issue), and executive rulemaking that helps clear the way for legislation. The issue remains the Senate. And Manchin, for all his faults, has sponsored gun-control legislation there.
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May 25, 2022 00:04
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CuddleCryptid posted:I really don't know how to react to this tragedy from an emotional level as a father. And I can't really look around to see how to feel, because honestly, every reaction is that, a reaction. People (speaking generally, not thread members) who were saying one week ago that minorities should be able to get weapons to defend themselves against a fascist state are now screaming "cops should be able to take your guns away at will without due cause" or "There's no guns in China and they have no mass shootings". Those people aren't expressing any actual beliefs, they are just reacting, and I feel like I'm being gaslit. I don't know what the solution is other than a complete overhaul of American gun culture, as in its destruction as a "culture", which is a slow process at best and impossible at worst. You just have to send your kids to school and hope that there isn't some incel that loses their poo poo. Its going to be an extremely unpopular position today but I'll be the first to say that empowering the government to disarm people is still a bad idea when your government is undergoing a soft coup by fascists.
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May 25, 2022 00:04
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FizFashizzle posted:A brave reporter could ask if he’d be in favor of getting rid of the filibuster if it was to pass his own bill and prevent things like this. https://twitter.com/igorbobic/status/1529229994542571521?t=zlaM72jYghjT7INtOmW26g&s=19 Thankfully someone is standing up for the sacred fillibuster.
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May 25, 2022 00:05
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FizFashizzle posted:A brave reporter could ask if he’d be in favor of getting rid of the filibuster if it was to pass his own bill and prevent things like this. Here's the senate Nays on that amendment, with notes on the current status of the D Nay votes (I've not got time atm to check any R turnover): Alexander (R-TN) Ayotte (R-NH) Barrasso (R-WY) Baucus (D-MT) - Now Steve Daines, R Begich (D-AK) - Now Dan Sullivan, R Blunt (R-MO) Boozman (R-AR) Burr (R-NC) Chambliss (R-GA) Coats (R-IN) Coburn (R-OK) Cochran (R-MS) Corker (R-TN) Cornyn (R-TX) Crapo (R-ID) Cruz (R-TX) Enzi (R-WY) Fischer (R-NE) Flake (R-AZ) Graham (R-SC) Grassley (R-IA) Hatch (R-UT) Heitkamp (D-ND) Now Kevin Cramer, R Heller (R-NV) Hoeven (R-ND) Inhofe (R-OK) Isakson (R-GA) Johanns (R-NE) Johnson (R-WI) Lee (R-UT) McConnell (R-KY) Moran (R-KS) Murkowski (R-AK) Paul (R-KY) Portman (R-OH) Pryor (D-AR) Now Tom Cotton, R Reid (D-NV) Now Catherine Cortez Masto, D Risch (R-ID) Roberts (R-KS) Rubio (R-FL) Scott (R-SC) Sessions (R-AL) Shelby (R-AL) Thune (R-SD) Vitter (R-LA) Wicker (R-MS)
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May 25, 2022 00:07
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Charliegrs posted:I wonder if the US is just going to start seeing a massive population decrease in the coming decades. I can't think of a (western) country that has made it more hostile to have kids than the US. I wake up every day thankful that I never wanted any, and never had any because I see what parents go through here and I don't know how they maintain their sanity. I look at the cost of having a baby, the cost of daycare (because you know both parents have to work) the added costs to already astronomical insurance rates for people with kids, food costs are through the roof which is really painful when you have a family to feed, and of course housing and gas costs are more when you have a family. Forcing more births to counteract this isn't the primary motivation of the Roe repeal but it is a useful externality
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May 25, 2022 00:07
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Willa Rogers posted:That's not what I was doing, though; I was pointing out (1) that I didn't think that tack was particularly reassuring from a kid's POV, and (2) that the bedrock reality to the poster would be flipped on its head by their political enemies. I'm fascinated to how we got to "Vote, eh?  " from "how do I talk to my kids about the grim reality of this country"
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May 25, 2022 00:07
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Manchin, of all people, should not be expecting common sense from his colleagues.
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May 25, 2022 00:07
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Discendo Vox posted:Here's the senate Nays on that amendment, with notes on the current status of the D Nay votes (I've not got time atm to check any R turnover): tbf, Reid's nay was procedural to pull the bill, but lol at the red-state dems who voted against it out of political expedience only to retire/lose subsequent elections. eta: Flake's & Chambliss's seats are now Dem. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 00:12 on May 25, 2022 |
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May 25, 2022 00:10
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Discendo Vox posted:Here's the senate Nays on that amendment, with notes on the current status of the D Nay votes (I've not got time atm to check any R turnover): https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/1529214835564716033?s=20 Is there anybody on that list who might move?
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May 25, 2022 00:11
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Willa Rogers posted:That's not what I was doing, though; I was pointing out (1) that I didn't think that tack was particularly reassuring from a kid's POV, and (2) that the bedrock reality to the poster would be flipped on its head by their political enemies. First, I don't know if there even is a solution to be honest. I think this country is too far gone for an actual solution barring something drat near cataclysmic (and even climate change is throwing that into doubt). The tact I was taking with my kid was about women and their bodies and how the government wants to control it (and I was just hypothetically extending it to gun control by saying "well might as well throw this on the pile"). But yes of COURSE that is what the right is doing with their kids. Look at all the little kids in MAGA hats at Trump rallies. And given how they are setting themselves up to be completely successful in a 3 branch takeover and cementing their rule for decades to come in every facet of life... this is certainly not the time to squeeze my eyes harder and just hope for the besties!
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May 25, 2022 00:13
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BigBallChunkyTime posted:I'm sure if you Google it you'd find something good. Did ya have 'em before Sandy Hook? Because I graduated in your same class and I'm questioning your follow-through
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May 25, 2022 00:14
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Willa Rogers posted:Manchin, of all people, should not be expecting common sense from his colleagues. He obviously doesn't. It's just convenient for him to say that because it's 'truthy,' resonates well with other people who believe themselves to be smart and well-informed, and allows him to continue doing nothing and make money. On the subject of shootings, is it feasible for people to take action against the government? Like, at what point does their inaction in the face of preventable death on a mass, endless scale become dereliction of duty that they can be found criminally or civilly liable for? Or ... does it not ever? I imagine it doesn't ever, now that I've said it, but since gun control is a dead end, holding elected officials responsible feels like it's at least something different. I mean, I guess that'd also open the door for the government to be held liable for the million+ dead of covid as well, so it's probably not something that can happen. But at some point I really want there to be a problem with society that the answer to isn't "burn it the gently caress down."
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May 25, 2022 00:14
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Nonsense posted:https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/1529214835564716033?s=20 That list's from 2013. Given that one-third of the senate is up for reelection, and most of the rest are die-hard right, I don't think there's 10 among them.
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May 25, 2022 00:14
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18 kids dead per the Texas Rangers
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May 25, 2022 00:15
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Pakistani Brad Pitt posted:Did ya have 'em before Sandy Hook? Because I graduated in your same class and I'm questioning your follow-through My oldest was in 3k then. I honestly don't remember.
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May 25, 2022 00:16
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Jaxyon posted:White folk slowly grasping the emotional pain of having to explain to your too-young child that much of the US wants them dead is certainly a thing. I feel like this got missed, but it hit me straight in the gut. And, maybe, in some twisted way it's a silver lining in a very dark cloud, that occasionally the majority has to confront the exact same conditions that far too many people have endured for far too long. This isn't new for a lot of people, and as we reflect on how to deal with this incident, perhaps we should also reflect on the sheer scale of human suffering that we've ignored for far too long because it didn't affect us.
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May 25, 2022 00:16
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Willa Rogers posted:That list's from 2013. Murphy is getting roasted for that statement, but really his speech amounts to begging.
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May 25, 2022 00:18
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Bishyaler posted:Its going to be an extremely unpopular position today but I'll be the first to say that empowering the government to disarm people is still a bad idea when your government is undergoing a soft coup by fascists. Recognizing its unpopularity and being as polite and even about it as I can here, how many more guns would you say the people need to prevent either this coup or these school shootings? Obviously what we have is not enough, and this position states that removing or preventing the use of any would be a negative, leaving a single alternative from this angle.
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May 25, 2022 00:25
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Thank goodness the abortion ban is coming - if not for that, we might run out of kids to shoot.
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May 25, 2022 00:26
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The most substantive thing we might see happen is a failed cloture vote but honestly I'd be kind of surprised if we see one of those at all. Showing 50-59 votes for whatever bill it is will then immediately invite a lot of anti-filibuster sentiment and the Democrats(whether you want to assign responsibility to individuals or the party as a whole) are not going to make a serious push to nuke it outside of complaining to the press. It would be less pressure on everybody to keep any legislation in limbo than provide direct evidence that the filibuster is the only barrier That's why Manchin's "no" vote on Roe cloture was tactically useful--even if you nuked the filibuster, there still wouldn't be 50, so no need to nuke the filibuster
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May 25, 2022 00:28
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RBA Starblade posted:Recognizing its unpopularity and being as polite and even about it as I can here, how many more guns would you say the people need to prevent either this coup or these school shootings? Obviously what we have is not enough, and this position states that removing or preventing the use of any would be a negative, leaving a single alternative from this angle. You're essentially asking that poster to say "we should kill the people in power with guns," so I don't imagine you're going to get very far by asking it here since it's explicitly against the rules of the forum to advocate for an armed revolution. Though it is in vogue to obliquely point to the necessity of such a thing, given a lack of options to the contrary. Granted, I don't really know why they felt the need to bring it up right now in the context of a mass shooting, but I guess preventing D&D poster overreach was worth the risk of being extremely unpopular. Comedy answer: a mol. If we had a mol of guns we wouldn't have mass shootings any more. Or anything else. Just gun.
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May 25, 2022 00:29
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Willa Rogers posted:That's not what I was doing, though; I was pointing out (1) that I didn't think that tack was particularly reassuring from a kid's POV, and (2) that the bedrock reality to the poster would be flipped on its head by their political enemies. The only worthwhile message I have been able to give them about this is that the democrats are mostly useless, republicans are absolutely disgusting, and they'll probably miss feeling most of it because they are white, male americans. As such they have an obligation to find ways to help others, and to always question the feeling that they have done enough. To try to not fear death, really. Tactically we've talked about hiding vs running, looking for cover wherever you are. We went to a protest the other day and talked about where someone might come from (street, car window) and good cover (stone pillar, downslope from the road), and rally points. Hmm, so, writing this down it sounds like Big Daddy from Kick rear end, but not that bad.
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May 25, 2022 00:30
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Ershalim posted:You're essentially asking that poster to say "we should kill the people in power with guns," so I don't imagine you're going to get very far by asking it here since it's explicitly against the rules of the forum to advocate for an armed revolution. Though it is in vogue to obliquely point to the necessity of such a thing, given a lack of options to the contrary. No, I'm engaging on the position's term's while recognizing the status quo regarding the people's current armament has not stopped this soft coup or these shootings. I'll slapfight with him about anything else regarding it in USPol when it's less ghoulish. I appreciate the joke at the end though lol
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May 25, 2022 00:33
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Pakistani Brad Pitt posted:Did ya have 'em before Sandy Hook? Because I graduated in your same class and I'm questioning your follow-through I graduated high school in Massachusetts in 2004 and we had active shooter drills from 2000 to 2004 in response to Columbine
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May 25, 2022 00:34
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Bel Shazar posted:The only worthwhile message I have been able to give them about this is that the democrats are mostly useless, republicans are absolutely disgusting, and they'll probably miss feeling most of it because they are white, male americans. As such they have an obligation to find ways to help others, and to always question the feeling that they have done enough. To try to not fear death, really. No; those are all p. good ideas & ways of handling it. I especially like your stressing mutual aid & personal safety, and also of participating in mass protests & teaching them to speak out against injustice.
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May 25, 2022 00:38
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RBA Starblade posted:Recognizing its unpopularity and being as polite and even about it as I can here, how many more guns would you say the people need to prevent either this coup or these school shootings? Obviously what we have is not enough, and this position states that removing or preventing the use of any would be a negative, leaving a single alternative from this angle. I guess the counterarguement to this is "with the clear and documented rise in both right wing extremism and willingness to use violence, would removal of these weapons actually decrease the total number of deaths if you take into account the single deaths that could theoretically be prevented?" If you look at the number of people killed in school shootings year to date this year the number is 21, including the children who were just murdered. In that same time period cops alone have killed, per WaPo, 403 people. Could those deaths be exacerbated by guns? If there were more gun would that number be lower? Is it even possible to know the answer to this trolley problem? We can look at other nations to see their murder rates be lower, but that doesn't tell us much because those nations do not have the same cultural problems as Americans who are sheltered from war and strife. It's a question of the sudden and tragic mass shooting versus the individual murder. Ten kids getting shot in an hour is a mind shattering tragedy. Ten kids getting shot across ten days by ten different people is a statistic that someone will one day make a think piece about. I won't claim to know the answer, because I don't. But that's the logic of the other side.
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May 25, 2022 00:42
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Willa Rogers posted:No; those are all p. good ideas & ways of handling it. I kinda gave up on the present a while ago. Now i more look for ways to help whoever might have a good idea now and be a good leftist example to kids.
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May 25, 2022 00:43
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I will not entertain notions that Manchin is serious about gun legislation. https://twitter.com/alizaslav/status/1529233007294414849?s=20 Kill the filibuster, and start spamming.
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May 25, 2022 00:44
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Nonsense posted:I will not entertain notions that Manchin is serious about gun legislation. What IS Manchin serious about other than undermining Dem legislation and defending Coal barons?
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May 25, 2022 00:45
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Bel Shazar posted:Now i more look for ways to help whoever might have a good idea now and be a good leftist example to kids. Wow, Bel. I don't know what to say, other than that I feel honored.
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May 25, 2022 00:46
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CommieGIR posted:What IS Manchin serious about other than undermining Dem legislation and defending Coal barons?
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May 25, 2022 00:46
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Calibanibal posted:Wow, Bel. I don't know what to say, other than that I feel honored. I approve of injecting insanity into the world, too. Carry on 
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May 25, 2022 00:47
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"Common sense legislation" is politician speak for "gently caress all."
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