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BonoMan posted:The only real and lasting solution to gun violence is the over-arching "Just make people's lives materially better so they don't always feel marginalized and with their backs against the wall." That is part of the solution, but not the whole solution. There are many class-stratified capitalist hellholes around the world and America has by far the most mass shootings by lone gunmen in proportion to our population. Shootings seem to correlate more to the rate of firearm ownership. Fewer guns, fewer shootings. I know that's not the politically expedient answer, but we cannot "solve" this without severely limiting private ownership of guns.
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May 25, 2022 04:05
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Kalit posted:Once again, how many [literal] lives is this stance worth to you? We're currently at ~17,000 this year alone. Last year was ~45,000. Is it worth it if this number gets to 60,000? 100,000? We know that this number is not inevitable, based on other similar countries in the world. Who is proposing any policy or action that would prevent this sort of thing from happening for Bishyaler to actually be in opposition to? I certainly haven't seen anybody with a vote that matters put anything forward yet. Discendo Vox posted:MJ maintains a dataset: The first I shall take with a grain of salt because it's MJ despite its findings more or less aligning with my arguments. The 2nd one I wasn't aware of tho and will look into further, thanks. Hopefully they embrace the wonk in regards to crosstabs despite how I may mock that tenancy elsewhere
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May 25, 2022 04:09
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Epic High Five posted:Who is proposing any policy or action that would prevent this sort of thing from happening for Bishyaler to actually be in opposition to? I certainly haven't seen anybody with a vote that matters put anything forward yet. Bishyaler stated they would be against a policy that would prevent this from happening: Bishyaler posted:Its going to be an extremely unpopular position today but I'll be the first to say that empowering the government to disarm people is still a bad idea when your government is undergoing a soft coup by fascists. Obviously, Bishyaler isn't in a position of someone with an actual vote that would make a difference. But since they publicly stated they are against a policy like this, I'm curious on what their boundaries, if any, are.
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May 25, 2022 04:18
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Kalit posted:Once again, how many [literal] lives is this stance worth to you? We're currently at ~17,000 this year alone. Last year was ~45,000. Is it worth it if this number gets to 60,000? 100,000? We know that this number is not inevitable, based on other similar countries in the world. Other similar countries in the world don't have our culture, don't have our politics, don't have our crumbling economy, lack of healthcare, and people being fed partisan outrage porn by the media all day long. Half of your numbers are suicides and would be better addressed with adequate mental healthcare and improved material conditions than seizing firearms. The numbers aren't 60,000 or 100,000 and imagining those numbers in your head doesn't make the argument more compelling. Many of these firearms used in mass shootings are purchased legally, so what exactly is the plan to prevent these purchases from happening? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 25, 2022 04:18
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Youth Decay posted:That is part of the solution, but not the whole solution. There are many class-stratified capitalist hellholes around the world and America has by far the most mass shootings by lone gunmen in proportion to our population. Shootings seem to correlate more to the rate of firearm ownership. Fewer guns, fewer shootings. I know that's not the politically expedient answer, but we cannot "solve" this without severely limiting private ownership of guns. Oh I'm 100% on board with that too. I guess I was trying to frame it like in order to have *lasting* peace you need material improvement. Otherwise any reform that happens now is just going to be vilified and doubled down upon by the right and they'll mount an even more violent response.
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May 25, 2022 04:19
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Bishyaler posted:Other similar countries in the world don't have our culture, don't have our politics, don't have our crumbling economy, lack of healthcare, and people being fed partisan outrage porn by the media all day long. Half of your numbers are suicides and would be better addressed with adequate mental healthcare and improved material conditions than seizing firearms. The numbers aren't 60,000 or 100,000 and imagining those numbers in your head doesn't make the argument more compelling. The real plan would be to significantly limit the ability of Americans to aquire firearms. Something like a total nationwide handgun ban or a ban on semi-automatics. But of course that sort of thing is politically impossible, so the gun control arguments after every shooting are just a way to vent a little bit of frustration and let politicians appear like they want to do something.
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May 25, 2022 04:22
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Bishyaler posted:Other similar countries in the world don't have our culture, don't have our politics, don't have our crumbling economy, lack of healthcare, and people being fed partisan outrage porn by the media all day long. Half of your numbers are suicides and would be better addressed with adequate mental healthcare and improved material conditions than seizing firearms. The numbers aren't 60,000 or 100,000 and imagining those numbers in your head doesn't make the argument more compelling. And now you're recycling arguments for why people state that universal healthcare would never work in our country. Even though it's not a problem in literally every other similar-ish country. It's somehow a problem that's unique to the US and we cannot overcome it  Since you aren't willing to answer the question after my numerous attempts, I assume you think any number of deaths is worth your vision... (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:30 on May 25, 2022 |
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May 25, 2022 04:22
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Its a very complicated and important issue. I'm not sure what to do, but I know that we need to think about it long and hard and try to come up with a solution.
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May 25, 2022 04:25
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Gripweed posted:The real plan would be to significantly limit the ability of Americans to aquire firearms. Something like a total nationwide handgun ban or a ban on semi-automatics. Aside from Democrats being laughed out of power forever (since law abiding people are usually understandably angry at their property being taken away), if feds start knocking on doors and demanding guns you'll probably kick off a civil war right then and there.
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May 25, 2022 04:28
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Gripweed posted:After shootings you see a lot of calls for more mental health, but is there any actual proposal involved? or any kind of clear idea as to how more mental health would prevent shootings? It seems like most shooters are lonely, vulnerable people who got radicalized. Unless "mental health" is code for monitoring everyone's internet and involuntarily committing anyone who spends too long on 4chan, I don't see how mental health fixes that. Nobody ever goes into much detail so I'm assuming it's just an updated "thoughts and prayers". Especially when they say it before anyone has anything concrete on the shooter.
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May 25, 2022 04:29
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Gripweed posted:After shootings you see a lot of calls for more mental health, but is there any actual proposal involved? or any kind of clear idea as to how more mental health would prevent shootings? It seems like most shooters are lonely, vulnerable people who got radicalized. Unless "mental health" is code for monitoring everyone's internet and involuntarily committing anyone who spends too long on 4chan, I don't see how mental health fixes that. I mean, it seems as if a lot of mass murderers have exhibited classic signs of schizophrenia, and fall into the age range in which it usually emerges. Laurie Dann was the rare example of a female school shooter with schizophrenia, but a lot of the others (including Adam Lanza) fall into the phenotype to a T (as did the NYC subway shooter, except for his age). There've been various bills passed over the last several decades allocating funding to mental-health treatment, but as with other aspects of our dysfunctional healthcare system the for-profit entities like insurers still set the rules.
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May 25, 2022 04:29
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Another 1/6 trial.quote:Instead, Crisp outlined an argument that Hale-Cusanelli did not specifically intend to disrupt the electoral count process in Congress that day, and got caught up in "groupthink." One of the key charges in the trial, obstruction of an official proceeding, requires that prosecutors prove Hale-Cusanelli's intent to impede Congress.
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May 25, 2022 04:30
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Kalit posted:And now you're recycling arguments for why people state that universal healthcare would never work in our country. Even though it's not a problem in literally every other similar-ish country. It's somehow a problem that's unique to the US and we cannot overcome it Agree on this. One thing that's also unique about the US is that we have literally infinite money to combat these problems, most of which can be solved with the allocation of resources. We face unique challenges sure, but we have unique tools at our disposal as well.
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May 25, 2022 04:30
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Kalit posted:And now you're recycling arguments for why people state that universal healthcare would never work in our country. Even though it's not a problem in literally every other similar-ish country. It's somehow a problem that's unique to the US and we cannot overcome it Universal healthcare won't work in America because our government is middle-management for wealthy interests and they don't want to be taxed or give up cash-cow industries like insurance and pharmaceuticals. There is majority support for Medicare for All. There is not majority support for having people surrender their firearms to the government.
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May 25, 2022 04:32
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Just replace one in every 15 or 20 pieces of ammunition with an all-but-identical round that contains much more potent explosive propellent. When fired this destroys the gun. Over time, guns will be removed from the ecosystem.
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May 25, 2022 04:34
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Bishyaler posted:Other similar countries in the world don't have our culture, don't have our politics, don't have our crumbling economy, lack of healthcare, and people being fed partisan outrage porn by the media all day long. Half of your numbers are suicides and would be better addressed with adequate mental healthcare and improved material conditions than seizing firearms. The numbers aren't 60,000 or 100,000 and imagining those numbers in your head doesn't make the argument more compelling.
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May 25, 2022 04:40
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hekaton posted:Just replace one in every 15 or 20 pieces of ammunition with an all-but-identical round that contains much more potent explosive propellent. When fired this destroys the gun. Over time, guns will be removed from the ecosystem. This is just stupid. If you want guns to be gone you need to stop selling them and go take them, not this stupid rear end scenario where every gun slowly explodes and all the people who own them never make the connection and also everyone forgets all the tools and methods for reloading ammo that could be used to get around this.
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May 25, 2022 04:43
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Nationalize bullet production, and charge everyone $5000 per bullet from a single federal storefront. None of that money goes to the gun industry, everyone gets to have their precious second amendment, and if you want to mow down a classroom you'll need to drop the cost of a mortgage to do it.
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May 25, 2022 04:47
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It honestly makes sense that there hasn't been any real movement on gun laws and generally disarming America. It will kick off a hell of a fight and we don't have enough Democrats in government to win it and have not for a long time.
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May 25, 2022 04:48
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Youth Decay posted:No legal purchases of firearms. 80% Americans don't believe in a handgun ban. 51% of Americans are against an "assault rifle" ban. 42% of Americans have a gun in their home. Not a practical solution. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx
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May 25, 2022 04:49
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Down the final stretch and it's neck and neck https://twitter.com/Taniel/status/1529308467038760965
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May 25, 2022 04:51
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gut-wrenching thread: https://twitter.com/nikigriswold/status/1529261108376309762?s=20&t=4S-nvZEvxYLwrA_m6tNJog
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May 25, 2022 04:52
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That thread is brutal be warned https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1529309739313774593 This race is coming down to the wire and I hope cisneros can pull it off.
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May 25, 2022 04:55
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Bishyaler posted:80% Americans don't believe in a handgun ban. 51% of Americans are against an "assault rifle" ban. 42% of Americans have a gun in their home. From that same website, only 18% of Americans think abortion should be completely illegal and somehow we're months/years away from a federal abortion ban. Banning handguns isn't impossible, making ammunition hard/impossible to get legally isn't impossible, destroying weapons that allow a single person to kill dozens in seconds isn't impossible.
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May 25, 2022 05:00
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uPen posted:From that same website, only 18% of Americans think abortion should be completely illegal and somehow we're months/years away from a federal abortion ban. Banning handguns isn't impossible, making ammunition hard/impossible to get legally isn't impossible, destroying weapons that allow a single person to kill dozens in seconds isn't impossible. I didn't expect "authoritarians can take away women's rights so they can also disarm us" being put forth as an argument, but here we are.
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May 25, 2022 05:03
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Just saying that something being extremely, deeply unpopular doesn't slow down those in power from ramming it through if they actually want to.
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May 25, 2022 05:04
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uPen posted:Just saying that something being extremely, deeply unpopular doesn't slow down those in power from ramming it through if they actually want to. It does when a majority of America refuses to comply, which is a tactic that'll work since law enforcement is overwhelmingly far-right. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/22/washington-state-county-sheriffs-refuse-to-enforce-gun-laws
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May 25, 2022 05:07
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lol if pro gun massacre/anti-abortion zealot cuellar wins on today of all days
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May 25, 2022 05:11
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uPen posted:Just saying that something being extremely, deeply unpopular doesn't slow down those in power from ramming it through if they actually want to. While you aren't wrong, it might be better to look at it from the other angle -- interracial marriage, de-segregation of schools, and the decriminalization of homosexuality were all underwater in popularity before they were enacted, and only broadly became popular after the fact. The leadership of this country could, y'know, lead. Be a spokesperson for the changes that would actually help matters. They don't do this in any respect, so them not doing it here isn't that surprising, but people in positions of power advocating for actual handgun bans or turning in guns for tax credit or anything would do more to sway public opinion than talking about how it's tragic we can't do anything or how it's this specific person (or group's) fault that better things aren't possible. I think this is just part of politics being bought and paid for explicitly now, but I feel like the past where legislation preceded public opinion is dead. The incessant need to triangulate and focus group leads to liberalism being paralyzed by precedent in a way that I don't think the system can handle.
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May 25, 2022 05:14
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e: nevermind
uPen fucked around with this message at 05:34 on May 25, 2022 |
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May 25, 2022 05:17
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Epic High Five posted:The first I shall take with a grain of salt because it's MJ despite its findings more or less aligning with my arguments. The 2nd one I wasn't aware of tho and will look into further, thanks. Hopefully they embrace the wonk in regards to crosstabs despite how I may mock that tenancy elsewhere 10-20%, going by the most conservative estimates, ignoring all other provisions of proposed law, counting only mass shootings and not other gun violence, doesn't count as a meaningful reduction? You're reasoning toward this as if there's an NRA spokesperson actively speaking in your ear.
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May 25, 2022 05:35
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gently caress https://twitter.com/f_francavilla/status/1529321645860605952?s=20&t=ut38KKkxE9laUHftHGxtHQ
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May 25, 2022 05:53
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https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1529324810911854598?s=20&t=tbiQOImsINQFBCHYVE5OOQ Congratulations to the Democratic establishment who managed to drag the anti-abortion, anti-gun control candidate across the finish line. What a sack of worthless, gently caress up losers.
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May 25, 2022 06:02
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Lemming posted:https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1529324810911854598?s=20&t=tbiQOImsINQFBCHYVE5OOQ What a first accomplishment by Democratic leadership in the wake of today's horrific events.
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May 25, 2022 06:11
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TV Zombie posted:gently caress This one broke me. I don't think I can bear the coming days of pics & stories about these babies, and I truly don't know how their loved ones will.
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May 25, 2022 06:14
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I can’t imagine the pain that guy is going through, and I also can’t get past the weird, cruel irony (?) that the photo he chose to post first is him wearing a “gently caress your gun free zone” (all caps) shirt
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May 25, 2022 06:19
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Willa Rogers posted:This one broke me. I don't think I can bear the coming days of pics & stories about these babies, and I truly don't know how their loved ones will. Yeah, I just don't have the energy to read yet another week of explanations for why this was totally unavoidable and nothing can be done and we shouldn't try anything because it clearly won't work and then it'll get ignored until the next time nearly 20 children are mass murdered by a single person.
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May 25, 2022 06:21
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uPen posted:From that same website, only 18% of Americans think abortion should be completely illegal and somehow we're months/years away from a federal abortion ban. Banning handguns isn't impossible, making ammunition hard/impossible to get legally isn't impossible, destroying weapons that allow a single person to kill dozens in seconds isn't impossible. Since it's come up a lot lately, they managed it via a 50 year campaign where a highly motivated minority came to treat voting and political activism as literal religious duty, worked tirelessly to take the levers of power at all levels of government, put special focus on winning courts, shifted rules and perceptions over decades, and worked happily with anyone even nominally on their side, whether true believer or temporarily useful empty suit, as long as it kept the ratchet turning and moved more pro-choice people out of power. And, I keep being told, it's only going to work because of many pro-choice people just throwing up their hands and letting it happen. Now take this and reverse it. Keep in mind that the minority that thinks no private individual should own a gun trends liberal as gently caress -- not leftist specifically, I clarify, but full of the centrists and milquetoast progressives that have spearheaded gun control efforts for decades, and where the people who are affected are disproportionately the howling openly fascist far right. Then tell me you see a path to pushing through total gun bans that just make them scuff their toes and sigh "okay then." Ideally one that doesn't actually kick in when today's students are grandparents. I won't even bring up some of the other practical issues, just getting to the equivalent of SCOTUS saying "we can go take all your guns now" without massive pushback by Congress or voters. It seems that if you're going to get that kind of political will together, getting rid of all the guns would just be a stretch goal after you accomplish the important stuff that would reduce gun violence and improve lives in other ways too.
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May 25, 2022 06:23
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Lemming posted:https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1529324810911854598?s=20&t=tbiQOImsINQFBCHYVE5OOQ And remember, he's under investigation by the FBI. I'm sure that won't come up in the general at all. It would have been the easiest loving thing in the world for Pelosi and Clyburn to just not campaign for this shithead. But nope, Mama Bear would rather lose a seat to a Republican than a progressive.
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May 25, 2022 06:26
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The root problem isn't gun ownership, its white settler colonialism integrated into the system and whiteness as a property right. These attacks are the consequence of white culture, in particular extractive and exploitative white property rights to debase and exploit whatever the present definition of "non-white" is. This is why white moms buy their angry white sons tools of terror to go enforce their manifest destiny. You will not be able to address gun ownership until this is tackled, because it is intrinsic to why they are so violently defensive of gun ownership - it is necessary. Hell, the 2nd amendment isn't even about fighting back against a tyrannical government, that's just a fiction to justify its real purpose to arm white men sent out of the cities to go tame the land and steal it through ultra violence from indigenous populations or keep enslaved populations inline. Stop treating your enemies as confused or idiots and start treating them as people with ideologies they are enforcing through violence. TaintedBalance fucked around with this message at 06:35 on May 25, 2022 |
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May 25, 2022 06:32
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