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It’ll also do more against an enemy tank than harsh language and thrown rocks
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May 21, 2022 10:40
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In the book Penalty Strike written by an officer leading an user officers penal company he describes how they use lmgs to shoot at the drivers sight slits causing them to panic and turn which exposes the more vulnerable sides to the AT-rifles. Sounds plausible imho
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May 21, 2022 10:50
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Soviets never stopped using AT rifles, iirc, probably because it fucks up anything lighter than a tank, and the side armor of non-heavy German ranks couldn't have been spectacular.
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May 21, 2022 12:24
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JcDent posted:Soviets never stopped using AT rifles, iirc, probably because it fucks up anything lighter than a tank, and the side armor of non-heavy German ranks couldn't have been spectacular. A PTRD/S could take out basically anything from the side except a Tiger, Panther, or Panzer IV with Schürzen. Which there were a lot of by the end, certainly, but even by 1944 the Germans were still using a lot of Panzer 38(t)s, captured French tanks, and Panzer II/IIIs, not to mention StuGs and Panzer IVs without skirts. A Solothurn S-18/100, which is the ATR the Hungarians were using, isn't going to do great against a T-34, but it will chew up Soviet reconnaissance halftracks and armoured cars, and might panic a tank crew that doesn't like being shot at by something that could penetrate a weak spot or do nasty things to the tracks.
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May 21, 2022 15:02
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Schurzen had a tendency to fall off when they hit terrain revealing the hull sides, so you could even take out more or less modern tanks with anti tank rifles, but you also see a jump in complaints about effectiveness in 1943 when the rifles can't penetrate Tigers and Ferdinands.
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May 22, 2022 23:50
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I know one of the main issues with AT rifles isn't so much penetration, but the shot actually doing anything. Sure it can punch a small hole in the tank, but unless you get a very lucky hit, all you've done is put a small hole in the tank.
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May 23, 2022 01:12
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I know one of the main issues with AT rifles isn't so much penetration, but the shot actually doing anything. Sure it can punch a small hole in the tank, but unless you get a very lucky hit, all you've done is put a small hole in the tank. This is true to an extent, but is really up to chance. You could shoot through empty space or you could hit a guy or create spalling. By mid to late war, Soviet doctrine was to aim for weak points like cupolas or view ports which also conveniently usually have crew behind them. The PTRD and PTRS are also in a weird category in that they had a lot more penetrating power than earlier AT rifles. I'd rather have a bazooka, yes, but the Soviet guns were a lot better than, say, a Solothurn or a Boys.
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May 23, 2022 01:46
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Anti-tank riflemen were issued diagrams of where all the cool stuff of enemy tanks is for that purpose. To be fair, there isn't much in a tank that you can hit without degrading its capacity in some way. edit: this is actually an interesting one since it depicts a Pz.Kpfw.III with 50 mm of front armour. The leaflet just shows the weak spots in the front armour but describes the side armour and where to shoot there in some detail.
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May 23, 2022 02:17
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So, a friend and I are gonna play a large-scale game of BA soon, seeing as he's always had a lot of infantry and tanks, and I've been fleshing out my range of vehicles and added in two new 'specialised' infantry squads to accompany my Alpini. (A recon cavalry squad and a large section of disposable Blackshirts, for building- and tank-assaults) Anyway, at this point I've have tallied everything up and have enough troops for around 2800pts worth of forces, split across three platoons. (One regular reinforced platoon which is maxed-out on basically everything. Also has an M15/42 light tank and an armoured car. I've also got a tank platoon packed with tankettes and some arty, then the third platoon is another tank platoon, with a flamer L6/40 and two flamer L3 tankettes) My friend definitely has more than this, so he'll be able to match whatever I send out. What I'm wondering though, is how to actually go about playing it. Does anyone else have experience with playing a game on this scale? I imagine we absolutely won't be able to deploy everyone at once - that would be insane. Maybe even half each and then half in reserve for turn 3 (for example) mightn't be enough off the field? I also imagine that we'd need a couple more turns to play it out. So perhaps a turn order like this: Turn 1: Deploy the first platoon (our reinforced platoons, with the greatest mix of units) Turn 3: Deploy second platoon Turn 5: Deploy third platoon (I feel it's safe to assume he'll have three, too) Turn 8: Roll to see if the game stops or continues (since normally this occurs on turn 6 IIRC)
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May 23, 2022 02:50
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One thing you can do is have each order dice activate 2/3 units instead of one each. That can speed things up as the dice drawing adds a lot of time to the game and it's unlikely you'll have 15+ order dice each anyway.
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May 23, 2022 06:05
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Instead of order dice just throw coloured glass beads into the bag. Order dice are great and all, but not strictly necessary for the actual activation choice.
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May 23, 2022 13:00
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Hmm, true - both are good ideas! We'll definitely need to figure something out, for activations. Then just use the dice and/or tokens to show which order they've received
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May 23, 2022 13:04
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Save your order dice for Ambush! and Down! orders, as those are the only ones that represent a particular game state with mechanical effects (as opposed to just a "this unit has already activated this turn" reminder).
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May 23, 2022 17:04
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A little more work on some Knights this morning: 
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May 24, 2022 16:12
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So I've been kinda interested in historical for a while but I've been intimidated by collecting all the different armies. I've been kinda interested in 30 years war stuff for a more limited force selection (and the time period/tactics in general); what's the current hotness for rules and models there? I've got a 6x3 ft table and would prefer smaller model counts. Also been interested in Saga Vikings since I've got a box of metal Vikings a friend sent me, where else should I look for models?
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May 24, 2022 19:57
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If you're just starting I'd recommend Pikeman's Lament by Osprey. It's roughly the same system as Lion Rampant and is quite playable. It covers small scale skirmishes and the armies are in the 30-60 model range. If you already have a decent sized army there are several options. Pike & Shotte by Warlord Games is good, it's based on Black Powder/Hail Caesar. There are books covering the 30 Years War and the English Civil War. If you're coming over from Warhammer you might want to track down a copy of their WHECW (English Civil War) rules; they're pretty good and easily adaptable to 30 Years War. There are a lot of good 28mm Pike & Shot era models out there. I will recommend Bloody Miniatures, they're beautifully sculpted. I wouldn't make a whole army out of them, but for a skirmish force or personalities they're exceptionally good. They're supposed to be for the English Civil War but would work just fine for the 30 Years War.
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May 24, 2022 21:44
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StashAugustine posted:So I've been kinda interested in historical for a while but I've been intimidated by collecting all the different armies. I've been kinda interested in 30 years war stuff for a more limited force selection (and the time period/tactics in general); what's the current hotness for rules and models there? I've got a 6x3 ft table and would prefer smaller model counts. Also been interested in Saga Vikings since I've got a box of metal Vikings a friend sent me, where else should I look for models? For viking age minis, check out Victrix. They make some very nice plastic kits which comes crammed with vikings, and if you add one of their 60 minis set to your metal vikings, chances are that you have or are close to two Saga armies. https://www.victrixlimited.com/en-se/collections/dark-ages I split the Viking set with another goon and added a few more minis from V&V and Footsore to make my Saga force. https://footsoreminiatures.co.uk/collections/vikings https://vminiatures.com/28-mm/ Also I haven't tried the pike and shot version, but I've played Lion Rampant and would second it as a very suitable "entry drug" historicals game. Very rules light, fast and easy. Also not requiring a ton of minis.
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May 24, 2022 22:21
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Thanks for the input. I think I'm gonna take a look at Saga stuff, probably Anglo-Danes and Normans for the 1066 match-up once I've got through with the Vikings (which seem like they've got enough hearthguard and warriors but basically no levies, in Saga terms.) It does seem like most of the suppliers (including the people who make Saga itself) are from the UK, is there an easier way to get stuff in the US?
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May 25, 2022 01:47
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StashAugustine posted:Thanks for the input. I think I'm gonna take a look at Saga stuff, probably Anglo-Danes and Normans for the 1066 match-up once I've got through with the Vikings (which seem like they've got enough hearthguard and warriors but basically no levies, in Saga terms.) It does seem like most of the suppliers (including the people who make Saga itself) are from the UK, is there an easier way to get stuff in the US? You can buy Victrix Dark Age archers and they will work for all 3 factions. You can buy them from Badger Games, Shield Wall Gaming Club, and Cotton Jim Games in the US. If you bought one pack of Dark Age Archers (which come with slingers too, which Anglo-Danes can use) you could cover Normans and Anglo-Danes. One pack of Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-Danes (not Huscarls) will cover Anglo-Danes too, though there might only be 4 total Hearthguard type minis with two handers in there. Normans cost a lot more, since cavalry only comes in packs of 12, and you will need a lot more than that, plus possible infantry. Personally, I would stick with Vikings vs Anglo-Danes, since that is the cheapest path to start. One pack of Vikings + half a pack of Archers will cover you. Little Big Men makes shield transfers that fit the Victrix minis, Badger Games has them.
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May 25, 2022 01:54
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lilljonas posted:For viking age minis, check out Victrix. They make some very nice plastic kits which comes crammed with vikings, and if you add one of their 60 minis set to your metal vikings, chances are that you have or are close to two Saga armies. Do the viking set come with any kind of ranged weapons?
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May 25, 2022 08:37
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Yeah Victrix packs are pretty big so a good idea if you're doing Saga is to ask around locally or on facebook etc to split a set of archers.Tias posted:Do the viking set come with any kind of ranged weapons? No, you can at pinch make what could pass as javelin throwers, but it's mainly meant to cover a range from no/light armour to heavily armoured infantry. It's perfect for making melee warriors and hearthguards. Javelins are harder to use in SAGA as well, you'll easily get rushed if your board doesn't support them and/or you know how to use them. Picking up some supplemental archers is a good idea. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 08:42 on May 25, 2022 |
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May 25, 2022 08:38
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a Viking pack will come with: 24 unarmored guys that can have swords, spears, or axes 24 armored guys that can have swords, spears or axes 12 armored guys that can have swords, axes, and some 2h axes, or some banners If you get the Dark Age Archers pack from Victrix, it comes with: 24 archers 12 slingers You could get Gripping Beast Dark Age Warriors to use as javelin levy so you could save your viking pack for Warriors and Hearthguard. But I would probably start with archers.
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May 25, 2022 12:20
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Thanks for the tips. Got a few general questions: how do Saga armies keep different grouping of units straight? The stuff I've done before (Star Wars Legion) has units grouped into fixed sizes (and with more-or-less consistent uniforms) so I can paint and base each unit differently, but Saga appears to have extremely flexible unit sizes. Also, looking into the future how many different types of kit are there- seems like all the Vikings would be the same except Norsegaels and Rus have different levies; then Saxons/Danes, Normans/Carolingians, Scots/Irish, and then Welsh and Byzantines by themselves- but I dont really know a lot about the differences in gear or color between factions.
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May 25, 2022 15:05
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StashAugustine posted:Thanks for the tips. Got a few general questions: how do Saga armies keep different grouping of units straight? The stuff I've done before (Star Wars Legion) has units grouped into fixed sizes (and with more-or-less consistent uniforms) so I can paint and base each unit differently, but Saga appears to have extremely flexible unit sizes. Also, looking into the future how many different types of kit are there- seems like all the Vikings would be the same except Norsegaels and Rus have different levies; then Saxons/Danes, Normans/Carolingians, Scots/Irish, and then Welsh and Byzantines by themselves- but I dont really know a lot about the differences in gear or color between factions. I can't really speak to different factions but I can say for my Vikings and Anglo-Danes, I have used base sizes to differentiate, because the bases are flexible. My Warriors and Levy are on 25mm bases. Hearthguard are on 30mm bases, and Warlord is on 40mm. This allows me to make units of whatever size I want, since you buy units but you can organize them anyway you want when you play the game: 4 Hearthguard 8 Warriors 12 Levy So you could buy two units of 4 Hearthguard, and put them together in an 8 man unit, or keep them separate as 4 man. You could buy 24 Warriors and make two units of 12. There are dice pool limits which limit the upper end of your unit size, but you can always adjust your unit sizes when you start the game. My advice would be to base all your Warriors the same way so you can vary the size of the units. For Hearthguard with equipment options, I am just making more minis. I.e. for Anglo-Danes I have 8 hearthguard with 2h, and 8 hearthguard with shield and sword.
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May 25, 2022 15:21
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Yeah to be clear I figure that hearthguard/warrior/levy distinction can be made with equipment, it's just keeping the different groupings straight that I worry about- though again I've only played a game with very clear distinctions so maybe I'm just overthinking it.
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May 25, 2022 15:24
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That's a thing in early Medieval; they weren't wearing uniforms, so a lot of it was just "a guy with a beard and an axe." There are exceptions, of course, for better equipped armies (i.e., Norman knights are pretty recognizable) but for the most part you can use that average guy with an axe or bow for many different armies. This is an advantage - you can field completely different armies easily by swapping a few minis in, and you can't do that with, say Napoleonics - but yes, it can be hard to tell them apart easily on the tabletop. It might help to come up with some way to distinguish them for yourself, like "all of the guys with a rock on their base are unit A, the guys with a bush on their base are unit B" or the like.
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May 25, 2022 15:27
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StashAugustine posted:Yeah to be clear I figure that hearthguard/warrior/levy distinction can be made with equipment, it's just keeping the different groupings straight that I worry about- though again I've only played a game with very clear distinctions so maybe I'm just overthinking it.
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May 25, 2022 16:14
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The victrix kit comes with a couple of heads wearing spectacle helmets with chainmail masks, I use those as hearthguards since they clearly look apart.
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May 25, 2022 16:53
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One of the great things about moving from legions or warhammer or so on to historicals is that it's a lot easier to just slam something vaguely appropriate on the table, even in five different games, and it's acceptable. Can you prove the tanks weren't this colour in june of 1942? No, no you can't. Get off my back, grog.
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May 25, 2022 16:53
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Never give ground to someone who shits on a camo job. Unless youre specifically portraying a specific unit at a specific time, nobody should care about how somethings painted up. Big exception for anything fash, obviously.
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May 25, 2022 17:23
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:One of the great things about moving from legions or warhammer or so on to historicals is that it's a lot easier to just slam something vaguely appropriate on the table, even in five different games, and it's acceptable.  when I explained that the vague yellow-green patches on my 4th/7th RTR were gas paint, with everything in between from really nice simple desert tan Italian tanks to unpainted resin and metal. The important thing is that everyone still had a good time.
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May 25, 2022 17:35
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Arquinsiel posted:The important thing is that everyone still had a good time. 100% this.
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May 25, 2022 17:43
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Yeah I'm not too concerned with perfect historical accuracy; it's just kinda dizzying coming from "this box of six dudes is one (1) Rebel Pathfinder unit and nothing else"
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May 25, 2022 17:45
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If you stick with javellins then a lot of the time "this box of 50 Victrix dudes is one (1) SAGA army and also any other SAGA army" TBH. Might not be the optimal way to run any given army, but you sure as hell can do it.
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May 25, 2022 18:41
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StashAugustine posted:Yeah I'm not too concerned with perfect historical accuracy; it's just kinda dizzying coming from "this box of six dudes is one (1) Rebel Pathfinder unit and nothing else" One thing that might help is to look up the colors that were available at the time - that is, colors that could be created with the fabric dyes they had - and develop a limited number of paints to use so as to "theme" your army.  https://bloodofkittens.com/wargaminghub/2013/12/04/viking-clothing-palette/
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May 25, 2022 19:07
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Cessna posted:One thing that might help is to look up the colors that were available at the time - that is, colors that could be created with the fabric dyes they had - and develop a limited number of paints to use so as to "theme" your army. Oh, fuckin' saving this. Great link!
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May 25, 2022 20:31
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A little later than the Viking period, but I found this post really interesting on how they got specific hues and how difficult or easy specific colors were to produce.
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May 25, 2022 20:48
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Reds, blues, yellows and greys/white will get you a long way for a viking era army. You can also do thematic shields, even if uniform shields were probably not a big thing. Like using a lot of yellows on one army, or geometric shapes, or animal designs.
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May 25, 2022 21:20
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There's a thing in the Icelandic sagas about wearing blue/black when you're out to kill someone. Source. Maybe some dark blue cloaks for your army would look good.
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May 25, 2022 21:46
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Even if uniform heraldry and colours are totally ahistorical before the Hundred Years War (if not later), I feel like only the groggiest nerds would get mad about that. I've got my eye on a bunch of those Barons War guys and I'm definitely going to split the foot guys' shields up among the knights' heraldry to go for the pop-history idea of feudal levies. Might even try and freehand some sigils on the torsos of guys without shields if I'm feeling adventerous.
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May 25, 2022 21:50
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