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ImpAtom posted:That is not what they claim to be, so either they loving live up to their claims or go away. I vote the latter. They cannot live up to their claims. Their claims are fake propaganda. It is not now and it never has been on the table. Every time you point out how they're doing a bad job with the implication that they should have done a better job instead is falling for their dishonest framing that doing a good job is possible It's not. If the response to this is "these specific cops did a bad job, but they could have done better" that's falling for the trap. They could not have done better, they're cops. Every time it's pointed out how the cops did nothing to stop the shooter from killing kids, the follow up should be "and that's why we should take away all their stupid toys and focus on real solutions that would actually make a difference"
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May 26, 2022 19:26
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Epic High Five posted:I'm in favor of votes just to put lovely people on the record, but as a vector of change I don't see how it will do anything more than not holding one since it's not like anybody voting to kill it is going to face a single consequence as a result, from anybody, at any level. I support it for the singular reason that the shittiest morons in congress and in the party with a trifecta oppose it, so it must be good. A sort of modified Law of Kristol. idk, I think you're pretty good with words, and this post is dead on. Lib and let die posted:gun to my head I'd choose 19 dead cops over 19 dead kids Lol how is this even a debate. Meanwhile, there are multiple people itt doing a bit where they tout how ACAB and anti-gun they are while simultaneously contorting themselves to absolve the perfect beautiful police heroes of any blame, and people are actually engaging with them like it's a good faith argument. 
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May 26, 2022 19:26
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Vahakyla posted:Two school cops who have never been in a gunfight armed with two pistols facing against a guy in armor and with a rifle is probably actually comparable. The rifle nerd has probably more ammo in his one mag than one cop carries total. It's a pretty hopeless situation. They will serve as targets, or as donators of two new pistols. 2 school cops who have never been in a gunfight can consume more of the shooters time than 2 toddlers would. Every minute he was engaged with dealing with police was minutes literal babies had to get away.
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May 26, 2022 19:27
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B B posted:The press conference where the cowardly cops give an update about their response is going to be here: Starting now.
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May 26, 2022 19:28
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papa horny michael posted:You should probably quit posting today, or next, or ever. Just absolute bird brains. Thanks for your contribution, I will make sure the mod team reviews it.
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May 26, 2022 19:29
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Lemming posted:They cannot live up to their claims. Their claims are fake propaganda. It is not now and it never has been on the table. Every time you point out how they're doing a bad job with the implication that they should have done a better job instead is falling for their dishonest framing that doing a good job is possible I see where your argument is coming from, but goddamn man, they had an army of cops outside drinking water. I think it just bewilders many.
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May 26, 2022 19:32
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BonoMan posted:It's the only *actual* solution though as evident by... literally everything happening around us. Regardless of it's impossibility. I don't believe that electoralism or Democrats make things better, so no, I won't be engaging in that effort. Climate change doesn't appear to have an end in sight as long as capitalism keeps truckin' along, and if you ever want to end capitalism, history tells you that you'll need guns. If I'm going to wishcast, I'll wishcast for revolution, a sustainable economy, and an end to artificial scarcity, not more power to a government that's entirely compromised by capital and undergoing a soft coup by fascists.
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May 26, 2022 19:32
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PT6A posted:Speaking of conservative talking points, I was thinking about this last night, and specifically regarding the "mental health" aspect: is there a diagnosable mental illness that boils down to: "you're just completely fuckin' nuts!" you're right it's not a mental illness. not as we currently understand it. there is no diagnosable mental illness associated with this kind of behavior. if you walk into a psychiatrist's office and ask for help because you want to mow down a classroom full of 20 kids and have no other symptoms they will tell you to hit the bricks. in fact a lot of the personality traits that are associated with antisocial behavior are actually protective against other forms of mental illness like depression and anxiety. so not only is this violence NOT associated with what we commonly understand as mental illness but shifting the conversation towards people with mental illness is totally ludicrous in this context. mental illness is defined by a form of suffering causing distress and discomfort and interfering with the life of the person suffering. wanting to cause suffering to someone else falls into a category of thought/behavior that doesn't formally exist. I happen to disagree with psychologists on this perspective. I think antisocial behavior should be treated as a form of mental illness. ALL human behavior is subject to change, and that we ought to figure out what causes people to cause suffering to others, so we can develop treatments. if we want to continue living in a society and don't just want to normalize barbarism. that doesn't mean giving potential mass shooters a hug or patting them on the head. It means figuring out why they make the choices they make and stopping them before they are able to take action. but I'm in the vast minority.
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May 26, 2022 19:35
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Lemming posted:They cannot live up to their claims. Their claims are fake propaganda. It is not now and it never has been on the table. Every time you point out how they're doing a bad job with the implication that they should have done a better job instead is falling for their dishonest framing that doing a good job is possible You are trying way too hard here. A better job would be not telling children to call out with an active shooter nearby. This is a case where basic training could have saved lives and that is not even cop specific. I'd expect the same from medical personnel. Saying this does not justify policem. Literal children are taught this during active shooter drills. Acting like the fact that police are bad doesn't mean they can't be worse is being performative for no reason.
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May 26, 2022 19:36
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Groovelord Neato posted:They had more than two cops there for a while before this thing ended. There were actually 3 initially on the scene. Two actual cops and the resource officer. The actual cops were shot and it appears that the backup waited until DHS agents came and additional local police backup made it to the scene. I can't say I would react well to a situation where someone has two rifles with 30 round magazines and body armor, even with training, but they had three people there initially and they seem to have mostly done their job right, but STILL couldn't stop him. Both of the most recent shooters would have died before they finished the shooting if it wasn't for their body armor. But, banning body armor probably isn't the solution. Preventing the guns from being out in the first place, so the body armor is moot is the obvious answer to the body armor problem, but we all know how that will go. Then, it seems crazy that the rest of the cops waited so long for federal agents who just happened to be nearby and even more backup before trying anything. We still need all the details and info to come out, but I don't blame the cops for stopping the parents from running in. That makes total sense and could get more people killed. But, the 30 to 45 minutes of waiting seems inexcusable. It depends on what the timeline looks like, but if the shooter was still in there and hadn't barricaded himself in yet, then that is massive negligence that probably got people killed. It seems like the only people who did their job mostly correctly were the DHS agents, the initial two cops, and the loving teachers. And the DHS agents and teachers weren't even supposed to be doing that work. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 19:44 on May 26, 2022 |
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May 26, 2022 19:38
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https://twitter.com/meganmmenchaca/status/1529891557817589761?s=20 The police created a disaster here larger than it already was.
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May 26, 2022 19:39
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If the police had intervened would that be fair to the children that were already dead
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May 26, 2022 19:40
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CommieGIR posted:If the police are unwilling to do anything: YES. If the Police are so inept they cannot react to a shooter, let someone else try. We would just be having a conversation about how the cops didn't do anything AND let parents run in to die and accidentally kill some wrong kids. I get wanting someone to have done something earlier but a conga line of good guys with guns would have also been a loving mess. Doesn't excuse using actual force to restrain parents when that probably wasn't necessary.
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May 26, 2022 19:40
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There will never be any gun legislation because the ruling class wasn't even able to do anything about 1/6, a literal attack on the fabric of their power structure, so nobody should expect these mass shootings to ever stop or to do anything except speed up and get worse.
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May 26, 2022 19:42
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B B posted:Starting now. i'm getting so dizzy from all this spinning.
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May 26, 2022 19:42
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Gumball Gumption posted:We would just be having a conversation about how the cops didn't do anything AND let parents run in to die and accidentally kill some wrong kids. I get wanting someone to have done something earlier but a conga line of good guys with guns would have also been a loving mess. Doesn't excuse using actual force to restrain parents when that probably wasn't necessary. Counterpoint: reality, as seen in the article posted 2 posts above yours.
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May 26, 2022 19:42
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Gumball Gumption posted:We would just be having a conversation about how the cops didn't do anything AND let parents run in to die and accidentally kill some wrong kids. I get wanting someone to have done something earlier but a conga line of good guys with guns would have also been a loving mess. Doesn't excuse using actual force to restrain parents when that probably wasn't necessary. I'm certainly not saying there was a good solution, for sure. But pretending that their failure to do anything for 40 minutes otherwise was anything but. The fact that these guys are willing to raid people's home and shoot to kill, even when the person may be armed, but will let an entire classroom be slaughtered to restrain some parents is the disturbing part. But we all know Cops are not the solution, they just openly demonstrated that today.
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May 26, 2022 19:42
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ImpAtom posted:You are trying way too hard here. The cops were in their platonic ideal situation, where they had an overwhelming force, an obvious, clear bad guy who could not even be confused for any of the potential victims, and he was in a specific spot they knew about, and they still didn't do poo poo to help any of those kids. The problem isn't that they weren't trained well (though very obviously they were not), because that implies with better training they could have done a better job. The institution of police is not capable of being trained better to do a better job in this scenario because they do not exist to save kids in this situation. If they were given more money to do more training, it would be with cop sympathetic people who would train them not to put their lives on the line and let the shooter kill more people so they wouldn't have to put themselves at as much personal risk, and then they would use the rest of the money to buy more stupid toys that they would use to terrorize black people and the poor Come on, nobody is arguing that the cops aren't huge worthless fuckups who make everything worse. The point is that there is no Good Cop Squad who could have saved kids because the entire point of ACAB is that the institution fundamentally prevents a Good Cop Squad from being created. It's not that there weren't mistakes that could have been corrected, it's that there's no cop that wouldn't make those same or comparable mistakes
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May 26, 2022 19:43
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Nonsense posted:https://twitter.com/meganmmenchaca/status/1529891557817589761?s=20 Holy poo poo
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May 26, 2022 19:43
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Bishyaler posted:I don't believe that electoralism or Democrats make things better, so no, I won't be engaging in that effort. Climate change doesn't appear to have an end in sight as long as capitalism keeps truckin' along, and if you ever want to end capitalism, history tells you that you'll need guns. I mean I don't disagree with you. I don't think what I want - material improvements and proper gun control - are going to be achieved through traditional electoralism (especially with the Dems).
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May 26, 2022 19:43
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Bishyaler posted:This is only a solution for the problem "America's 2nd civil war isn't starting fast enough". what makes you think your fellow gun enthusiasts are more likely to put their money where their mouth is than you are. all that talk about taking up arms to defend against tyranny didn't amount to gently caress-all when ICE started rounding up "undesirables", and it didn't amount to gently caress-all when the cops started rounding up people protesting their murder at the hands of the state. your threat to launch civil war if someone takes your guns is precisely as credible as all your previous ones: the test has been run, and we know that after one stern look from a police officer you will slink back home muttering "no, really, NEXT time i'll do something." the fantasy universe the NRA sold you along with the other hobby paraphernalia is fun and all, but it is a fantasy. your dream situation, Good Guys With Guns, were on site to handle the problem of a school shooter. much like yourself, they ran, they hid, they tried to take out their fear and frustration on those they viewed as weaker than themselves, and they hoped someone else would solve the problem for them. you are not going to overthrow the government with small arms. you are not even going to inconvenience the government with small arms. you are going to save the police the trouble of grabbing a drop gun from the squad car to throw on your corpse if you ever do anything. that's it. that is the extent of what your firearms can hope to accomplish.
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May 26, 2022 19:46
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The only thing Beto did that got any respect from me is when he outright said he would take away people's guns and didn't beat around the bush
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May 26, 2022 19:50
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CommieGIR posted:If the police are unwilling to do anything: YES. If the Police are so inept they cannot react to a shooter, let someone else try. sorry i don't condone vigilantism, you must respect and obey the law to the letter that is what the police is for  shame on you, you should know better for respecting authority
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May 26, 2022 19:50
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Lemming posted:The cops were in their platonic ideal situation, where they had an overwhelming force, an obvious, clear bad guy who could not even be confused for any of the potential victims, and he was in a specific spot they knew about, and they still didn't do poo poo to help any of those kids. The problem isn't that they weren't trained well (though very obviously they were not), because that implies with better training they could have done a better job. The institution of police is not capable of being trained better to do a better job in this scenario because they do not exist to save kids in this situation. If they were given more money to do more training, it would be with cop sympathetic people who would train them not to put their lives on the line and let the shooter kill more people so they wouldn't have to put themselves at as much personal risk, and then they would use the rest of the money to buy more stupid toys that they would use to terrorize black people and the poor Claiming that literally every cop would act the exact same way is dumb. They are not a gestalt mindlinked entity and shocking as it may be times are cases where a police officer handles something correct. Dehumanizing them to the point you think it is literally impossible for them not to get children killed is going so far in the opposite direction it becomes parody. You can both believe cops should be abolished and that if they exist they shouldn't be getting children murdered by following rules so simple *we teach them to children* ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:57 on May 26, 2022 |
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May 26, 2022 19:55
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Cimber posted:Holy poo poo I don't think "there's always more and it's always worse" has been more apt. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 26, 2022 19:56
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The story keeps changing and the cops keep looking worse and worse https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status/1529895723243909141 https://twitter.com/tplohetski/status/1529895341436416010 https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1529897371391471625
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May 26, 2022 19:56
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Lastgirl posted:sorry i don't condone vigilantism, you must respect and obey the law to the letter They existed at that point and time, so either they do something like their jobs, or they should stand aside. Also: LMAO if you think I 'respect authority' of police. ImpAtom posted:Claiming that literally every cop would act the exact same way is dumb. They are not a gestalt mindlinked entity and shocking as it may be times are cases where a police officer handles something correct. Dehumanizing them to the point you think it is literally impossible for them not to get children killed is going so far in the opposite direction it becomes parody. This, basically. If cops cannot be arsed to be the """heroes"""" they bill themselves as in the face of real danger, then maybe they need to stop pretending they are protecting anyone by assaulting anxiety and horror ridden parents. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The story keeps changing and the cops keep looking worse and worse The fact that these fuckers swore at Beto for calling them out and are now being publicly shamed is 
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May 26, 2022 19:57
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gently caress there were 12 minutes between him crashing in the ditch and going into the school. https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1529899291459862528
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May 26, 2022 20:03
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ImpAtom posted:Claiming that literally every cop would act the exact same way is dumb. They are not a gestalt mindlinked entity and shocking as it may be times are cases where a police officer handles something correct. Dehumanizing them to the point you think it is literally impossible for them not to get children killed is going so far in the opposite direction it becomes parody. it's a minor detail, but part of the reason School Resource Officers (god, what a loving name) are a terminally stupid idea is just a pure matter of staffing policy you're the police chief of Impending Tragedy, population ten thousand, you've got i don't know, thirty officers to play with. word has come down from on high you gotta put somebody on Sit Around At A School All Day duty. you are not putting your best and brightest on that job. this is likely someone's reward for being on your poo poo list! this job sucks rear end, and if you need them to do something, it is already a very bad loving day. SROs are -inevitably- not only cops, and as such incapable of responding to these events well, they are the shittiest and least reliable of the cops, because what manager would waste a decent worker on Intimidate Ten-Year-Olds duty.
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May 26, 2022 20:04
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CommieGIR posted:They existed at that point and time, so either they do something like their jobs, or they should stand aside. so you are asking to increase more volatility into an already escalated situation. i think you should respect authority more imo, this subversion and flippancy is what gets people harmed because you are thinking emotionally not rationally
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May 26, 2022 20:04
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I encourage anybody who is joining this thread from elsewhere to lurk for a minute and read back a few pages before posting something like "posters here just love cops what can you do, they love them and want to hug and kiss them" when the entire fight you're joining is about how people are saying cops clearly aren't up to the task and maybe the better course is to just let parents bumrush the place to grab their kids or similar. If you cannot meet this upper-atmosphere high bar then consider instead not sallying forth on a grand crusade to whine about and to an expanding list of refs
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May 26, 2022 20:04
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HonorableTB posted:The only thing Beto did that got any respect from me is when he outright said he would take away people's guns and didn't beat around the bush Making yourself permanently unelectable for every single position in your state down to dog catcher and then running a high profile campaign every cycle and losing while siphoning millions from winnable races isn't a viable electoral strategy.
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May 26, 2022 20:06
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Lastgirl posted:so you are asking to increase more volatility into an already escalated situation. Yeah, no thanks. Especially as we get more and more info how the cops fumbled every single thing here.
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May 26, 2022 20:07
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I have extreme doubts about a gunman getting into a school through some way other than the front entrance. Even when I was in elementary school in the 90s, every door was locked other than the front. I'm really not sure we're getting the straight story from the police now and it wouldn't surprise me if he was confronted and just not apprehended at all, unless the shooter went through the front and the SRO just wasn't there, which is exactly where he should be.
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May 26, 2022 20:09
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https://twitter.com/meganmmenchaca/status/1529891557817589761?s=20&t=GyBqYIE3gC6yLGcbdE24Ag cops need to apprehend this vigilante that put even more people at risk 
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May 26, 2022 20:09
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these stupid texas cops with their cowboy hats
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May 26, 2022 20:10
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Probably Magic posted:I have extreme doubts about a gunman getting into a school through some way other than the front entrance. Even when I was in elementary school in the 90s, every door was locked other than the front. I'm really not sure we're getting the straight story from the police now and it wouldn't surprise me if he was confronted and just not apprehended at all, unless the shooter went through the front and the SRO just wasn't there, which is exactly where he should be. Worth noting that my kid's elementary school you can only enter through the front and you have to ring a doorbell cam and be checked remotely before entering the building.
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May 26, 2022 20:14
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CommieGIR posted:Worth noting that my kid's elementary school you can only enter through the front and you have to ring a doorbell cam and be checked remotely before entering the building. Yeah, and you'd expect if the gunman went through the entrance, there'd be time to issue an alert and do an immediate lockdown of the classrooms, so... something about this feels very amiss. I know that sounds conspiratorial, but this doesn't line up with my experiences in the 90s and 00s, and school security has only gotten more draconian since.
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May 26, 2022 20:16
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CommieGIR posted:Worth noting that my kid's elementary school you can only enter through the front and you have to ring a doorbell cam and be checked remotely before entering the building. The school my mom worked at until she retired in 2019 worked the same way. Even if it was someone they knew (like me, since I occasionally had to bring in something she forgot) you still had to ring the bell and get checked first.
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May 26, 2022 20:17
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Is “I want a refund from the cops” a slogan the thread’s reformists would scold an Uvalde parent for using? Defund these assholes; get a special master in there to analyze exactly how much of that budget needs cut based on the actual service being offered. Oh you thought you were a 40% of the budget force? No, you’re maybe an 8% force, so do better next year and we’ll see about a raise from that.
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