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Gumball Gumption posted:More cops would have solved it, obviously. How could we be so dumb when the answer is so simple. Obviously the solution is a Police Commissar to push the cops into the breach.
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May 27, 2022 18:18
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How has the FBI not taken over this investigation from the obviously incompetent and compromised local yokels.
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May 27, 2022 18:19
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CommieGIR posted:Yes but that doesn't make it useful, hence being an anomaly, it doesn't make it something to uphold as an example as the norm. Unfortunately that article is behind a pay wall (and I'm not paying fifty bucks for a pdf) so we don't really know what they mean by protective actions or how many of the attackers were armed themselves. The abstract focuses on both assault and theft but without the data tables it's hard to say. Not to mention the word "injured" means a lot of things. CommieGIR posted:Obviously the solution is a Police Commissar to push the cops into the breach. The largely apocryphal story of soviets training their guns on their own soldiers to force them to advance might not be real but that doesn't mean we can't draw a lesson from it. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 18:22 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 18:19
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CuddleCryptid posted:Unfortunately that article is behind a pay wall (and I'm not paying fifty bucks for a pdf) so we don't really know what they mean by protective actions or how many of the attackers were armed themselves. The abstract focuses on both assault and theft but without the data tables it's hard to say. Not to mention the word "injured" means a lot of things. Thats when you get into the NPR Article where its pretty clear that successful self-defense is rare, more firearms only increases firearms violence, and its more likely that your self-defense weapon gets used against you. quote:Most gun enthusiasts don’t measure up to the fictional ideal of the steady, righteous and sure shot.
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May 27, 2022 18:22
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Bishyaler posted:An armed guard putting himself in harms way arguably bought time for others to escape, and barring the body armor (or if he had a more powerful weapon), he would've also likely ended that rampage. The first sentence here is you imagining something happened and the second is something that didn't happen, so I don't quite see what point you're trying to make. Do you not understand that there is an option where people don't die in a hail of bullets? Xombie fucked around with this message at 18:24 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 18:22
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Bishyaler posted:An armed guard putting himself in harms way arguably bought time for others to escape, and barring the body armor (or if he had a more powerful weapon), he would've also likely ended that rampage. You have no proof of this.
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May 27, 2022 18:23
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https://twitter.com/jbarro/status/1530238482940977152 WHen you have the center of centrists like Josh Barro saying this, it seems that public opinion on the cops in this situation is turning rather dire. The FBI needs to step in immediately.
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May 27, 2022 18:25
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Xombie posted:Do you not understand that there is an option where people don't die in a hail of bullets? Man, someone should've let those kids in Uvalde know about that one weird trick.
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May 27, 2022 18:30
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The Sean posted:You have no proof of this. There are multiple news stories specifically citing that the guard bought time for others to escape. https://www.pe.com/2022/05/25/guard-killed-in-buffalo-massacre-honored-at-funeral/
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May 27, 2022 18:32
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Bishyaler posted:Man, someone should've let those kids in Uvalde know about that one weird trick. What, you going to equip elementary school kids now? Or that teachers, who are underpaid and already underequipped to teach and under attack for teaching basic science and history, should be armed AND armored? Maybe we need to stop doubling down on firearms and address the underlying issues that lead to this. Bishyaler posted:There are multiple news stories specifically citing that the guard bought time for others to escape. Not to be crass: So. What. The solution to this is not MORE guns. Its addressing mental health, social issues, and making it LESS easy for someone to purchase an AR-15 over the counter, and making cops do their damned jobs if they intend to keep them. 
CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:36 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 18:33
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Clearly what the West Virginia story proves is that if you see a person with a gun, you should immediately shoot them before they have a chance to shoot someone themselves
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May 27, 2022 18:35
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Bishyaler posted:New good guy with a gun just dropped If the guy didn't have a rifle in the first place, this wouldn't have happened.
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May 27, 2022 18:36
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Bishyaler posted:There are multiple news stories specifically citing that the guard bought time for others to escape. Imagine if the shooter wasn't able to own a gun. Then the people that he killed in the parking lot and entrance and in the aisles before the guard engaged him and the guard and anyone he killed afterwards would be alive right.
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May 27, 2022 18:37
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Bishyaler posted:Man, someone should've let those kids in Uvalde know about that one weird trick. You mean in the state with some of the most lax gun laws in the country? No I don't think they were using that "one weird trick". How well did the current reality, where they had mass gun ownership, work out for them? Bishyaler posted:There are multiple news stories specifically citing that the guard bought time for others to escape. What great news for the 10 people who are dead.
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May 27, 2022 18:38
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CommieGIR posted:What, you going to equip elementary school kids now? Or that teachers, who are underpaid and already underequipped to teach and under attack for teaching basic science and history, should be armed AND armored? The first comment is the textbook definition of a straw man. CommieGIR posted:Maybe we need to stop doubling down on firearms and address the underlying issues that lead to this. Absolutely address the underlying issues like capitalism, poverty, mental health, toxic masculinity, white supremacy. But in the mean time people should be able to defend themselves, especially in the glaring realization that quite possibly the government had advanced knowledge of Buffalo and didn't act, and the Uvalde police saved their own kids and waited an hour before doing their jobs. You currently have no legislative vehicle with which to remediate the accessibility of AR-15s or force the police to do their job. However people do have the capacity to arm themselves. It's extremely telling that we have a success story where self-defense saved dozens of lives and the reaction isn't celebration, its bitterness that a solution that wasn't yours worked.
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May 27, 2022 18:43
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VorpalBunny posted:If the guy didn't have a rifle in the first place, this wouldn't have happened. Fantastic, how do you plan to make that happen in the current political climate?
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May 27, 2022 18:45
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https://twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1530238057454047232 This is loving shameful. The worst part is, this is the poo poo the police are admitting now. What horrible poo poo are they lying about?
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May 27, 2022 18:45
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Bishyaler posted:The first comment is the textbook definition of a straw man. It's been really funny to watch you stumble rear end backwards into actually cops are good and more guns and cops would have solved this.
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May 27, 2022 18:45
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I don’t think the problem can be that there aren’t enough guns in the US or that there are people who aren’t able to get guns easily enough.
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May 27, 2022 18:48
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's been really funny to watch you stumble rear end backwards into actually cops are good and more guns and cops would have solved this. Cops suck, but if they’re the only currently-available option, then ride their asses until they do the job they advertise themselves doing. I personally think we need to defund, but this is where we are now; when you reach the point of a shooter, you need somebody to shoot them. It’s an enormous failure of the police to not loving shoot him sooner, if they did at all. I think it would be more practical to enact national health care with strong mental health care supports than attempt to get rid of guns. Just from the perspective of doability, there’s no peaceful disarmament of Americans possible.
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May 27, 2022 18:49
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's been really funny to watch you stumble rear end backwards into actually cops are good and more guns and cops would have solved this. Buffalo was a security guard, not a cop. You can tell because he actually put himself in harms way and attempted to do his job. I don't think its controversial to say that mass shooters might have a rougher go of the whole indiscriminate murder thing if civilians are shooting back at them. You rarely see these people attacking locations known for people who can fight back, that's likely why schools are targeted so often.
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May 27, 2022 18:50
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Bishyaler posted:The first comment is the textbook definition of a straw man. Actually it looks like it's literally a question. A straw man, by textbook, argues against a statement you didn't make. quote:Absolutely address the underlying issues like capitalism, poverty, mental health, toxic masculinity, white supremacy. None of these things are mutually exclusive with gun reform. quote:But in the mean time people should be able to defend themselves, especially in the glaring realization that quite possibly the government had advanced knowledge of Buffalo and didn't act, and the Uvalde police saved their own kids and waited an hour before doing their jobs. Your example of people "defending themselves" is 10 people dying, including the person whose entire job was defending people from dying. quote:You currently have no legislative vehicle with which to remediate the accessibility of AR-15s or force the police to do their job. However people do have the capacity to arm themselves. It's extremely telling that we have a success story where self-defense saved dozens of lives and the reaction isn't celebration, its bitterness that a solution that wasn't yours worked. As stated earlier, your argument for gun ownership is built on a reality that doesn't exist, you have absolutely no footing to argue that other peoples' realities don't exist. You do not, in any sense, have the capacity to "arm" yourself in any meaningful sense against the people you are claiming to arm yourself against. Guns did not "save" dozens of lives in Buffalo. Guns took 10 lives. In what sense is 10 people dead in Buffalo and 21 in Texas from gunshot wounds, in the only country in the world with constant mass shootings, a status quo that is "working"?
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May 27, 2022 18:50
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Bishyaler posted:The first comment is the textbook definition of a straw man. So your solution is to dig us further in a gun violence hole, because there is no case where adding more firearms is going to make this better. You are not solving anything, you are shifting the goal posts because we cannot reasonable solve the underlying issues which are the only real solution to these issues. Buffalo is not a textbook case of success, so don't know why you keep holding it up.
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May 27, 2022 18:50
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CommieGIR posted:So your solution is to dig us further in a gun violence hole, because there is no case where adding more firearms is going to make this better. You are not solving anything, you are shifting the goal posts because we cannot reasonable solve the underlying issues which are the only real solution to these issues. Typically violence is ended by violence. The only difference is that the people here appear to be arguing that the state should have a monopoly on that violence. The state which loitered in a parking lot for an hour while kids died screaming. Edit: Effort post. A State is a monopoly on violence, which is part of why police brutalize non-state actors who might be capable of violence. The police, a violent extension of the state, must retain that monopoly at all costs to maintain power. Without that monopoly, police have nothing. They're an outnumbered, tiny minority of lazy and self-interested bullies who would disintegrate as a cohesive force in a single day, if one out of ten people didn't honor that monopoly of force. When they're faced with anything other than full civilian compliance from disarmed people, they fall apart, run away and focus on saving their own skins. It is important to the state that there be brutal oppression of people willing to be violent to save their children, more important than saving the kids. It is essential to the existence of the state that you *never* take matters that affect you into your own hands, that the state alone maintains the right to ignore your needs and physically harm people. You must *vote* for the people to do things on your behalf. It is bad for the state and existing power structures when people take action independently of those power structures. Making sure everyone being policed knows that they cannot resist In any way is worth more to the state than any number of dead children. It's worth the bad press and public outcry if they make sure that the state monopoly on the legitimate use of force is preserved in everyone's mind. Bishyaler fucked around with this message at 18:55 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 18:52
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Bishyaler posted:Buffalo was a security guard, not a cop. You can tell because he actually put himself in harms way and attempted to do his job. It's controversial because it's contradicted by reality, where we still have more mass shootings than anywhere on the planet but virtually no real restrictions on guns.
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May 27, 2022 18:52
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Bishyaler posted:Buffalo was a security guard, not a cop. You can tell because he actually put himself in harms way and attempted to do his job. Yeah, that ain't happening unless you have a way to rewire how the human animal works. Our options are to disarm and Defund the police or just finally all admit we're cool with the deaths. Guns to seize power and make those changes? Sure. Guns for self-defense in every day life so that heroes can jump into action? Lol and lmao. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 18:56 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 18:54
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Bishyaler posted:Typically violence is ended by violence. Your refusal to acknowledge the goal of not having violence in the first place doesn't make that option disappear. quote:The only difference is that the people here appear to be arguing that the state should have a monopoly on that violence. The state which loitered in a parking lot for an hour while kids died screaming. The state does have a monopoly on violence. The state has mortars, tanks, attack helicopters, and nuclear submarines. There is absolutely no conceivable reality in which you have access to a level of violence that matches even a fraction of the state's power. You have yet to come up with an actual salient point against this fact.
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May 27, 2022 18:55
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Bishyaler posted:Typically violence is ended by violence. The only difference is that the people here appear to be arguing that the state should have a monopoly on that violence. The state which loitered in a parking lot for an hour while kids died screaming. No, the state should be robbed of its ability to do violence as well, again the ONLY real solutions are correcting the underlying root issues. But when you say the state, Police vs Military are vastly difference and no amount of access to AR-15s is gonna enable people to fight a structured military. You are not solving this by adding more guns to the scenario.
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May 27, 2022 18:55
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https://twitter.com/DuddingChris/status/1530233969429598208?t=U5bIcilTOR16vQcyeyLbSw&s=19 How the gently caress does every detail released keep making the cops look even worse than previously described??? I will say I have been surprised by the extent to which mainstream attention has been on the utter failure of police in this massacre. It's the first time I can remember the focus of such an event being how utterly useless the cops are.
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May 27, 2022 18:55
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Bubbacub posted:jfc Somehow this continues to get worse and worse hourly.
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May 27, 2022 18:56
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Bishyaler posted:Typically violence is ended by violence. The only difference is that the people here appear to be arguing that the state should have a monopoly on that violence. The state which loitered in a parking lot for an hour while kids died screaming. If the state had the monopoly on gun possession *this wouldn't have even happened.* There would be no situation to sit around and loiter.
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May 27, 2022 18:56
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A big flaming stink posted:I will say I have been surprised by the extent to which mainstream attention has been on the utter failure of police in this massacre. It's the first time I can remember the focus of such an event being how utterly useless the cops are. The disturbing part is this is the only reason its still on our radar: For once, the cops won't shutup and keep counteracting their statements and making it apparent that they massively hosed up.
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May 27, 2022 18:56
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BonoMan posted:If the state had the monopoly on gun possession *this wouldn't have even happened.* There would be no situation to sit around and loiter. That's an interesting suggestion. How do you plan to make that happen?
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May 27, 2022 19:06
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At this point the incompetence of these specific cops is so bizarrely above and beyond even the most cynical takes that it's kind of wrapping back around to where people are gonna be able to easily write it off as "Well obviously these cops are bad, but most aren't" It's kind of the Trump effect where he would keep topping himself with more and more obviously bad things so that the previous bad things felt normal by comparison.
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May 27, 2022 19:07
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Bishyaler posted:There are multiple news stories specifically citing that the guard bought time for others to escape. You said: "(or if he had a more powerful weapon), he would've also likely ended that rampage." If. I said, "you have no proof of that." The Sean fucked around with this message at 19:10 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 19:08
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Another problem with the idea that the government should be the only people with guns is how cops act with guns; they pussyfoot around armed occupiers of government facilities, but unarmed black men are riddled with bullets. I’d be fine with programs to disarm Americans only after we completely root out white supremacists and reactionaries from our police forces and three letter agencies and have some kind of truth and reconciliation go on. I don’t trust a country with our history and current status quo to only allow the right wing state security apparatus to be armed.
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May 27, 2022 19:08
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Bishyaler posted:That's an interesting suggestion. How do you plan to make that happen? Your suggestion that everyone individually arm themselves will kill orders of magnitude more people than they'd save
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May 27, 2022 19:08
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Bishyaler posted:That's an interesting suggestion. How do you plan to make that happen? Gun control.
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May 27, 2022 19:09
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BonoMan posted:Gun control. Enormous https://twitter.com/hillaryclinton/status/712712604276428800?s=21&t=TdZJ2xbFDGee1pzKmaS-jg energy going on with your plan
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May 27, 2022 19:11
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A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/DuddingChris/status/1530233969429598208?t=U5bIcilTOR16vQcyeyLbSw&s=19 You think this is bad, imagine how cops lie when they're not under intense national scrutiny.
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May 27, 2022 19:12
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