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So one issue with police budgets is that they are regilated at the local level, so its hard to set funding priorities with federal legislation. I wonder if police unions have the same problem or whether some type of federal law or guideline could force them to disband? something to the effect that no sworn law enforcement officer can join participate or become member of a police officers union. that would really piss off the pigs
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Mar 26, 2022 03:57
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The Oldest Man posted:Yeah it's actually even funnier than that This isn't funny - it's awesome. Yes, it probably means that in some (or most) cases, cops are just saying "I don't want to deal with this, someone else do it" - but it also validates the model in a massive way that is otherwise difficult to replicate. DeeplyConcerned posted:So one issue with police budgets is that they are regilated at the local level, so its hard to set funding priorities with federal legislation. This would run afoul of a lot of federal labor regulations that you really don't want to gently caress with. Even going with purely looking at public unions, you'd be loving over teachers who really don't need to be kicked when they are already down.
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Mar 26, 2022 04:22
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Shooting Blanks posted:This isn't funny - it's awesome. Yes, it probably means that in some (or most) cases, cops are just saying "I don't want to deal with this, someone else do it" - but it also validates the model in a massive way that is otherwise difficult to replicate. Yeah, really spells it out that even the pigs don't want to be the first responders to everything, which is a good part of why they respond to everything with brutality.
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Mar 26, 2022 05:00
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Shooting Blanks posted:
Fair enough. Thanks for the info and context.
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Mar 26, 2022 06:33
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There's still stuff that can be done at the federal level if the political will existed: a proper oversight organization in the department of justice that can develop standardized training, discipline, and leadership practices, and empowered to bring suit against departments who run afoul of those.
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Mar 26, 2022 06:41
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fool of sound posted:There's still stuff that can be done at the federal level if the political will existed: a proper oversight organization in the department of justice that can develop standardized training, discipline, and leadership practices, and empowered to bring suit against departments who run afoul of those. Most budgets, especially in large cities and counties, are heavily infused with federal funds and they come with a TON of stipulations. You could definitely flex enough at the federal level to make waves on the state and local level (look at how much federal money went into the tanks/war level gear and weapons that an uncomfortable number of precincts have as an example of federal influence gone the wrong way) Regulation also helps.
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Mar 28, 2022 14:32
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Sorry for a double post but https://twitter.com/JoshuaPotash/status/1507860278825922561 gently caress all of this, this is all the wrong steps in the wrong directions but then again I'm not shocked at any of it with NYC electing a loving COP.
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Mar 28, 2022 14:46
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Crosspost: https://twitter.com/kalven/status/1500957650124611584 "tough on crime" DA's don't do poo poo
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Apr 4, 2022 21:05
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Yuzenn posted:Sorry for a double post but can in no way see this going horrifyingly wrong. Don't have windows with reflective surfaces? Well, now they can see everything. Slap some thermal cameras on them, just to be sure. Like when they did counter-terrorism surveillance on random muslim citizens or would show up to counter-terrorist meetings half the world away and the federal agents would wonder what they were doing and why they were being so weird/trying to give advice.
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Apr 5, 2022 03:51
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Cranappleberry posted:can in no way see this going horrifyingly wrong. Don't have windows with reflective surfaces? Well, now they can see everything. Slap some thermal cameras on them, just to be sure. NYC is just re-entering the Giuliani era of "tough on crime" policies instead of addressing literally anything about income and neighborhood disparities that are rife all over NYC and all boroughs. This won't work, will cost the city way too much money, and will disproportionately lead to the incarceration of black and brown people. Or as I'd like to call it - NYC business as usual.
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Apr 5, 2022 14:40
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/federal-jury-awarded-darryl-howard-093000987.html Town spends $4m in attorney's fees defending a cop who fabricated evidence against a wrongfully convicted man. The man spends two decades in prison for crimes he didn't commit, goes through every court and they all find he was wrongfully convicted. He is pardoned by the governor. He sues the city and wins. The city refuses to pay.
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Apr 15, 2022 12:18
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Cranappleberry posted:He sues the city and wins. The city refuses to pay. In a just world every citizen would be held for contempt of court.
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Apr 15, 2022 13:18
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https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1516507076566077449?s=20&t=z-eHPHGvogvFTVLunc6kmA Hope somebody leaks these cops names
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Apr 19, 2022 22:06
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Unreal, and they're so loving mad at someone calling them out for that poo poo.
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Apr 19, 2022 22:18
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Update courtesy of the Uvalde PD Police still useless and we don't need them Maybe ill update in ...4 days until the next mass shooting but likely nothing glaring will change about this stance. Idk why I have an effort post in the beginning - F the police and the "then what" is everything is better instantly
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May 26, 2022 20:32
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Yuzenn posted:the "then what" is everything is better instantly https://twitter.com/TheBuffaloNews/status/1530003013691121664?s=20&t=mYPQiCXnYzgzc112Tkt44g
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May 27, 2022 07:30
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Yuzenn posted:Update courtesy of the Uvalde PD It was a good op and a good question. I think one of the most surprising parts about all of this is how quickly public support for the police is collapsing. At first there was this idea that cops are good guys and then the George Floyd movement happened and that fell apart. Then there was this pivot to well, actually, they may not be great but we need them to protect us and now....what? Where are we?
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May 27, 2022 18:32
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I think one of the most surprising parts about all of this is how quickly public support for the police is collapsing. It will be back. The propaganda is strong and pevasive.
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May 27, 2022 20:01
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Meanwhile, this is what cops are designed to do: https://twitter.com/32BJSEIU/status/1529924470974062592
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May 27, 2022 20:01
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Jaxyon posted:It will be back. The propaganda is strong and pevasive. Yep. Though it's a black eye for them at least. Copaganda is probably going to swing right into hero cops saving kids from shooters in the face of an ungrateful lying media.
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May 28, 2022 00:23
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Some ambiguous, generalized public perception of "huh what if cops are bad actually?" means absolutely nothing without concrete, material changes in policing/police funding/police autonomy. It's worse than nothing, it's actively counterproductive where liberals manage to leverage that perception in their favor, and they sure as hell have. Police funding & aggression has only increased since George Floyd and all Biden & liberal states had to do to whither support and sow complacency was throw on the "thoughts & prayers" affectation of support and then legislate in the opposite direction. And maybe it's because I don't have kids, but to be quite honest I can't really blame a bunch of ill equipped cops for standing around confused not wanting to run blind into a building against a guy with body armor, an assault rifle and nothing to lose. It's pretty hosed up to expect that of somebody because it's their job. That shouldn't be anybody's job. Asking "what are police even for, then?" in this context is just begging to travel the road toward increased militarization, curtailed regulations, and more bullets flying.
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May 28, 2022 02:52
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treat posted:And maybe it's because I don't have kids, but to be quite honest I can't really blame a bunch of ill equipped cops for standing around confused not wanting to run blind into a building against a guy with body armor, an assault rifle and nothing to lose. It's pretty hosed up to expect that of somebody because it's their job. That shouldn't be anybody's job. Asking "what are police even for, then?" in this context is just begging to travel the road toward increased militarization, curtailed regulations, and more bullets flying. They outnumbered him 19 to 1 and had years of training. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 03:53 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 03:51
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Things like these are the one type of situation where, even with an ideal police force, you'd actually want trained and armed police. Obviously the preferred solution is reducing the number of murder sprees in the first place by tackling the problems of alienation both structurally and professionally and , you know, preventing at-risk people from buying weapons. No poo poo. But we're always going to need people equipped and trained to enter dangerous situations and save as many lives as they can: firefighters knowingly sign up to do this, and theoretically so do cops. If cops aren't willing to do that, then they really do only exist to hassle guys with hoodies and eat doughnuts.
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May 28, 2022 03:52
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treat posted:And maybe it's because I don't have kids, but to be quite honest I can't really blame a bunch of ill equipped cops for standing around confused not wanting to run blind into a building against a guy with body armor, an assault rifle and nothing to lose. It's pretty hosed up to expect that of somebody because it's their job. That shouldn't be anybody's job. Asking "what are police even for, then?" in this context is just begging to travel the road toward increased militarization, curtailed regulations, and more bullets flying. You can and you should because they signed up for the job. If they don’t like it they are free to quit. Police are pathetic and so are their defenders. Defund the police and shun/mock their supports. It’s the only moral option.
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May 28, 2022 04:47
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Cpt_Obvious posted:They outnumbered him 19 to 1 and had years of training. drat dude why so many edits?  The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't realistic to talk about defunding police while claiming that poo poo like this is specifically what they exist for. Training cops to be military operators in legitimate warfare scenarios and to always expect some level of deadly hostility--isn't that how we got here? On the flip side of that, should we expect people to be "heroes" because that's their day job? because that's what the parade float says? because you read it in a children's book? That's silly, particularly when it's only a fraction of someone's actual job. I'm extensively trained to fight wildfire but I won't pretend like I know for sure how I'd react when faced with a wall of flame approaching at 30mph in the rare chance I actually end up in that situation. It's not nearly as complex as dealing with an active shooter but I can't say I've trained myself to sprint with my pants filled either. I'm not defending what those pigs in Texas did wrt the public, and I admit that I don't know the whole story of how poo poo went down since there's only so much of this news cycle I can stand to digest--my gripe here is with what we are willing to call a "normal" part of someone's job given the assumption that we're not okay with mass shootings occurring every other day. Policing is a huge problem, yes, but the monumental shitstorm that is the American status quo isn't a problem police should be designed to address. This isn't strictly about reforming or defunding police. It's a compounding issue of gun control, economic/cultural/social alienation, supposed democracy without agency, etc. that has brought us to where we are and deciding what to do with cops without addressing the underlying disease that we apparently believe they're supposed to protect us from is just wild. Trying to divine any sort of realistic solution from this hot mess is like trying to build a house out of a pile of burning garbage, even if you manage to it'll still be a house made of burning trash. If we as a nation can't even keep people from walking around carrying literal weapons designed for war, what hope is there for any meaningful police reform?
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May 28, 2022 05:40
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treat posted:should we expect people to be "heroes" because that's their day job? Yeah that’s their job. They’re free to quit if they are scared, pathetic babies with guns. That’s like being a fire fighter and standing around while a fire burns a house down filled with children and then spraying the hose at parents trying to save their children instead of at the fire.
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May 28, 2022 05:53
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treat posted:drat dude why so many edits? I think we're talking past each other. The fact that they refuse to defend the public is not surprising in the least because it is not their job. Propaganda has convinced the public that police exist to protect them, when in reality they exist to protect private property not children. Claims that one should not be prepared to do a dangerous job serves only to perpetuate this illusion by excusing them when they don't protect people.
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May 28, 2022 13:09
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fool of sound posted:Things like these are the one type of situation where, even with an ideal police force, you'd actually want trained and armed police. Obviously the preferred solution is reducing the number of murder sprees in the first place by tackling the problems of alienation both structurally and professionally and , you know, preventing at-risk people from buying weapons. No poo poo. But we're always going to need people equipped and trained to enter dangerous situations and save as many lives as they can: firefighters knowingly sign up to do this, and theoretically so do cops. If cops aren't willing to do that, then they really do only exist to hassle guys with hoodies and eat doughnuts. The solution, in my mind, is that most cops should not be armed. A standard police handgun, with the average level of proficiency required by police departments, is going to be worse than useless in situations like the Uvalde shooting. The cops that are armed should be equipped and proficient enough that they can deal with a situation like this with one hand tied behind their back, so to speak, and every incident where those officers are dispatched should be subject to public inquiry afterward to determine whether it was necessary and whether they acted appropriately, no matter how the situation is resolved.
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May 28, 2022 14:47
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If cops want a fraction of the respect they believe should be afforded to them, then they should consider their lives forfeit. They shall not marry or be allowed relationships, applying chemical castration as necessary. They are expendable, their lives property of the state.
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May 28, 2022 15:08
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PT6A posted:The solution, in my mind, is that most cops should not be armed. A standard police handgun, with the average level of proficiency required by police departments, is going to be worse than useless in situations like the Uvalde shooting. The cops that are armed should be equipped and proficient enough that they can deal with a situation like this with one hand tied behind their back, so to speak, and every incident where those officers are dispatched should be subject to public inquiry afterward to determine whether it was necessary and whether they acted appropriately, no matter how the situation is resolved. Yeah this is basically it. The overwhelming majority of situations don't call for cops as we think about them today, much less armed cops. At absolute most maybe some less lethal subdual weapons, and even then police that use them need to provide a clear account of their use to an independent board. In the small number of situations that call for armed officers, those officers should be incredibly well trained and professional, not the kind of people who hesitate to take on a single teenager 20 to 1. These sort of SWAT-esque cops should be their own entirely separate department with even greater accountability and oversight, and should only be deployed where there's a major ongoing hazard to human lives.
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May 28, 2022 18:02
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treat posted:Some ambiguous, generalized public perception of "huh what if cops are bad actually?" means absolutely nothing without concrete, material changes in policing/police funding/police autonomy. It's worse than nothing, it's actively counterproductive where liberals manage to leverage that perception in their favor, and they sure as hell have. Police funding & aggression has only increased since George Floyd and all Biden & liberal states had to do to whither support and sow complacency was throw on the "thoughts & prayers" affectation of support and then legislate in the opposite direction. What?? That’s 100% an expectation of the job. I’m an ex cop and that was very explicitly our policy with terrorism or active shooters unless it was very clear that they wanted to negotiate and weren’t killing hostages or something that in the absence of orders you attempt to confront the shooter as soon as possible with whatever weapons you have. This isn’t some slippery slope to militarization, that already happened anyway. The cops are at least as equally well armed as the shooter and knowing how to use a carbine effectively especially in a confined space is also a skill that even the shittiest patrol cop probably is at least as good as most random psychos that do school shootings. gently caress the pigs, they were just cowards and it’s not militarization to expect police to take personal risks if citizens lives are in danger. In fact, people have taken more of a “officer safety” thing as they have militarized anyway.
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May 28, 2022 18:03
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So what? You wanted to take a shot at “defund the police” activists and thought this was your angle? Jesus Christ, you don’t have to be a delta ranger SEAL to win a gunfight with a 19 year old incel, and yeah, it is a rare occurrence for an individual cop but is part of your job. Virtually every other country in the world prosecutes cops for extreme cases of cowardice when other peoples lives are in danger, and most of those countries don’t have an equivalent qualified immunity that police here enjoy if they go too far in the other direction. It’s been codified in most armed forces that you can in fact be prosecuted for not doing something that would almost certainly kill you in extreme enough circumstances. That’s what you sign up for, except American police apparently. If someone’s too much of a weakling to risk their life if many other people need them to, pick a different job. Last time I checked the school kids didn’t sign up to get in a gunfight either so maybe the slightly more prepared and armed groups of people can take some risks for once. There was no excuse for what happened. The random Fed driving by is the only one who actually followed their training correctly rather than decided to let a maniac have free reign with a room full of children rather than risk a gunfight where they still outmatched the shooter in every way. The local cops explicitly chose to ignore the pleas of soon to be dead children and their own training. quote:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna30976 It was nothing more than extreme cowardice on an individual level and the systemic result of years of cop culture and our legal system making themselves a special class of people whose safety is the only priority despite being increasingly well equipped and legally protected from liability or career consequences. Even the slavishly cop worshipping psychos on cop Reddit are finally coming around to calling it what it was today. loving Christ dude gently caress you for defending this pathetic poo poo. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 19:31 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 19:10
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Yuzenn posted:Long time no post but this is an incredible success story in "units that aren't the police making immense change" This was a pleasant thing to read and brightened my day just a bit.
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May 31, 2022 19:44
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May 31, 2022 20:32
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I'm not defending poo poo, but I also don't feel the need to preface my posts with "kill all pigs forever" and I don't think it's fun or healthy to stew in hatred or mistakes that can't be fixed. Maybe I'm too sentimental, but you come off pinkerton-rear end agro, so maybe we both have weak points? What I was getting at is why we think it's reasonable to expect someone who spends 10 years writing traffic tickets and wrangling drunks to kick into soldier mode at a moments notice rather than doing exactly what happened in Uvalde, and I'm particularly interested in exactly why these extended "threat assessment" picnics keep happening--whether it's bureaucratic or cultural or being two weeks from retirement or what. None of that "these were the bad apples" horseshit either, there's a systemic reason this happens time and time again and the only reason I can think of is that cops simply aren't prepared for it. Cops are playing overlapping roles in our society that range from social worker to military operator and it's loving crazy to expect them to behave in one way or another at a moments notice. This isn't a defense of American policing, it's a critique. If you honestly think these pigs were "just lovely cops who didn't do their job" as though they were some exception to the rule then you're doing a lot more to defend policing than I am. I'm happy to believe that all cops cover or disable their body cams to beat in some dissident's head but when it comes to a situation like this I should just assume they jump straight into hero mode without weighing the same multitude of "what's going to get me into trouble?" scenarios in their heads? The cop who strangled someone to death for being black and the cop who sat on their hands during a school shooting might not be the same two people, but they come from the same stock and they hold the same roles. I'm not exactly stoked on having extensively trained LPN deathsquad cops on-call for extreme situations, either, but that seems to be a capability we all expect from police right now?
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Jun 1, 2022 02:26
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The cops literally constantly expect to be treated and honoured as if they do, so.
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Jun 1, 2022 02:35
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Beat cops said they needed tanks to protect our children, not just to oppress minorities, now some people have realized that beat cops don't protect children.treat posted:I'm not exactly stoked on having extensively trained LPN deathsquad cops on-call for extreme situations, either, but that seems to be a capability we all expect from police right now? "We", the "abolish the police" thread, probably mostly don't expect anything from the police besides civil rights violations. Somebody should've reported that the shooter was a black kid with weed, they would've charged in through the windows.
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Jun 1, 2022 02:47
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Yes, cops are being expected to act in roles they aren't equipped or trained for. Unfortunately, these roles are "everything that doesn't require a violent response". I'm serious, there's a reason why traffic stops, a duty that should be piss easy, keeps resulting in people getting holes blow in them by some twitchy rear end cop: they're trained and equipped for deadly violence, and that seeps into every other thing they're expected to do. The fact that they're incompetent at violent situations too really just drives home how worthless cops are, how they're unsuited for literally any job but arresting shoplifters from walmart, while demanding and receiving a kind of reverence first responders who actually contribute positively to society can only dream of getting.
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Jun 1, 2022 02:50
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TBF I think what he's trying to say is that, as shown in this incident, involving the law has a tendency to make things worse and if they were to actually go into the school they may have acted the same way they do on the streets. I don't know if I agree with it but I'm sure we are going to see situations where the police do get more actively involved and they make things way worse. Edit: I want to be entirely clear: I am in no way telling anyone not to call police if there is a shooter at your school. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Jun 1, 2022 |
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Jun 1, 2022 02:52
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Cpt_Obvious posted:TBF I think what he's trying to say is that, as shown in this incident, involving the law has a tendency to make things worse and if they were to actually go into the school they may have acted the same way they do on the streets. I'd usually agree that involving cops doesn't make things any better but I don't think "a psychopath is actively hunting down children" is a situation that even cops are likely to be able to make worse.
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Jun 1, 2022 02:57
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