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Gumball Gumption posted:It's specifically arguing that guns are a sad necessity as long as the police are armed For what? To shoot the police? How well that usually works in the USA?
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May 27, 2022 21:55
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Papercut posted:You could use the same argument for a trans anti vaxxer. Their personal beliefs have to be balanced against actual data when it comes to public safety. Is there scientific evidence that guns make the people you're claiming to defend safer? I think if only the police had guns the police riots we're regularly subjected to would elevate and lead to even more death. It doesn't make anyone safe but I do think it's the reality of the situation.
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May 27, 2022 21:56
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The racist cops defeat the leftists in every scenario. These arguments don't hold water and are at best argued because the initiator knows the status quo will likely remain unchanged, so one can argue from view of class solidarity while still enjoying their hobby unabridged.
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May 27, 2022 21:56
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Leftists also thinks it sucks that we're in a uneasy truce with fascists who want to start killing. You also can't wish it away.
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May 27, 2022 21:58
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Gumball Gumption posted:I think if only the police had guns the police riots we're regularly subjected to would elevate and lead to even more death. It doesn't make anyone safe but I do think it's the reality of the situation. And I think guns in the hands of their enemies are more often used as an excuse by police to use whatever force they care to, and allow those police to walk free even in the rare circumstances they reach a jury trial. But that's why I'm asking if there's evidence, because what I think as an individual doesn't matter to anyone but me.
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May 27, 2022 22:00
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah its absolutely astounding that both the NRA and Abbott thinking continuing the NRA convention is a good look. That second video looks like the guy from Predator Poachers group in TX, a YouTube group that does online stings to catch guys trying to solicit sex with minors. Turns out he's a massive MAGA rear end in a top hat who has multiple past videos of him saying racist and sexist poo poo, as well as admitting to predator behavior himself. Who would have thought he'd seek attention here?! Guaranteed you're gonna a video of this uploaded to his channel.
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May 27, 2022 22:01
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Elias_Maluco posted:For what? To shoot the police? How well that usually works in the USA? Leftists, minorities, etc. having guns could lead to police wanting to disarm them. They're not for shooting at police, they're a bargaining chip you can give up to disarm the fascists and the police. African Americans taking up arms in the 60s led directly to gun control laws that affected everyone.
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May 27, 2022 22:03
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Papercut posted:And I think guns in the hands of their enemies are more often used as an excuse by police to use whatever force they care to, and allow those police to walk free even in the rare circumstances they reach a jury trial. I don't think there is since we're debating two hypotheticals. The police just plant evidence on people anyways. Banning guns with zero other changes will just lead to a tightening police state. There are no good answers here and the way out is going to be incredibly painful because it's a fundamentally broken part of American society. Also none of this matters nothing is changing.
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May 27, 2022 22:04
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CuddleCryptid posted:Unfortunately that article is behind a pay wall (and I'm not paying fifty bucks for a pdf) so we don't really know what they mean by protective actions or how many of the attackers were armed themselves. The abstract focuses on both assault and theft but without the data tables it's hard to say. Not to mention the word "injured" means a lot of things. Someone uploaded the full PDF of the article here, which can be found by searching for the title of the article on Google Scholar. I gave the article a quick skim. Protective action means, I think, taking pretty much any action. Running, arguing, struggling, attacking with a non-gun weapon, etc. The article says that 730 perpetrators had guns. If I'm reading it right though, there's a mismatch between perpetrators a victims. Of the 127 victims who had guns, only 24 perpetrators had guns. One weird thing is that most times, the victims were injured before taking any action, but gun users were less likely to be injured before. It's unclear why. Authors suggest gun owners might be more situationally aware or, drawing on narrative accounts, gun owners getting into verbal conflicts that slowly escalate being weapons are drawn. The authors mention that the data is drawn from self-reports and also doesn't include people who died as a result of the crime. Again, I gave it a quick skim. I've no doubt I've missed something or misread something.
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May 27, 2022 22:05
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B B posted:Uvalde is also calling in police from elsewhere to protect their cops: OK, but now we're going to have to call in more heavily armed protectors to protect the people protecting the police.
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May 27, 2022 22:06
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Cops continuing to plant evidence and defraud the justice system seem like something most countries deal with. The gun violence has to stop, letting DSA cosplay with AR's isn't fixing anything. Guns must be removed entirely from the equation.
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May 27, 2022 22:08
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Total Party Kill posted:Yes. This. Most periods of active suicidal intent last only a handful of minutes. People will kill themselves with guns when they would've never attempted with another method. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/duration/
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May 27, 2022 22:10
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Nonsense posted:Cops continuing to plant evidence and defraud the justice system seem like something most countries deal with. The gun violence has to stop, letting DSA cosplay with AR's isn't fixing anything. Guns must be removed entirely from the equation. The dead children are just part of the bargaining chips we will eventually use to trade for gun control! In the meantime all true leftists should be giving thousands of dollars to guns manufacturers. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 27, 2022 22:11
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Papercut posted:You could use the same argument for a trans anti vaxxer. Their personal beliefs have to be balanced against actual data when it comes to public safety. Is there scientific evidence that guns make the people you're claiming to defend safer? infectious diseases represent a qualitatively different harm to your local community that gun ownership does not. It is possible to create a group of your social peers that exercise gun ownership towards the purpose of collective defense. there is no such analog for refusing to take measures that minimize the chance you are a vector for a highly infectious virus. Papercut posted:The dead children are just part of the bargaining chips we will eventually use to trade for gun control! In the meantime all true leftists should be giving thousands of dollars to guns manufacturers. seriously what are you trying to imply? What sort of leftist believes in the concept of "political capital"???? like a good deal of leftists these days consider electoralism as a strategy an absolute farce.
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May 27, 2022 22:14
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Gumball Gumption posted:I think if only the police had guns the police riots we're regularly subjected to would elevate and lead to even more death. It doesn't make anyone safe but I do think it's the reality of the situation. You're proposing that the police regularly hold back from escalating violence because they don't want to get shot, which doesn't really seem to be how American police encounters play out in practice. A big flaming stink posted:It is possible to create a group of your social peers that exercise gun ownership towards the purpose of collective defense. Does it happen? Do people hold back from attacking trans people because they know a trans militia would come shoot them down in revenge? I've never heard of such a thing. I think the only leftist argument against gun control is "yes, mass gun ownership in this country makes violence more likely and more dangerous, and it currently does nothing to reduce the bourgeois state's abuse of people, but that's something we just have to tolerate because there will be no overthrowing the bourgeois state without mass gun ownership." That sounds much more convincing to me than "mass gun ownership actually reduces hate crimes and pacifies the police." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:22 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 22:16
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Civilized Fishbot posted:You're proposing that the police regularly hold back from escalating violence because they don't want to get shot, which doesn't really seem to be how American police encounters play out in practice. Well a pretty good counter-example happened just two days ago. It seems to me that cops tend more to escalate violence when they're not afraid of getting shot (and then claim to fear for their lives anyway). Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 22:22 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 22:20
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Does it happen? Do people hold back from attacking trans people because they know a trans militia would come shoot them down in revenge? I've never heard of such a thing. you would probably be well served to research how anarchists behave as a community defense force to deter fascists from inflicting violence on the most vulnerable
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May 27, 2022 22:21
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A big flaming stink posted:you would probably be well served to research how anarchists behave as a community defense force to deter fascists from inflicting violence on the most vulnerable I'm sure I would be, because I live in a big city and try to follow the news pretty close and I've never heard of an anarchist community defense force shooting anyone in revenge (which is how deterrence would have to be enforced, unless they station an anarchist on every street corner to be ready to intervene in some brewing violence).
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May 27, 2022 22:24
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A big flaming stink posted:you would probably be well served to research how anarchists behave as a community defense force to deter fascists from inflicting violence on the most vulnerable A whole heck of a lot more vulnerable people (trans, gay, leftist, etc…) die every year from guns, including via suicide, than are saved by actively opening fire on or threatening law enforcement or other violent groups (citation needed for any whatsoever). Using this absurd fictitious scenario where a bunch of nobodies all larp as the trusty lefty heroes banding together by the old barn to fight off the fascist hordes and save the country is honestly offensive to even entertain as an excuse for perpetuating the proliferation of guns when every other country that has cracked down has seen tangible benefits. Rather, getting guns out of the hands of violent, conspiracy-poisoned nutjobs will be far more likely to promote everyone’s safety and fewer guns will mean we can deescalate our militarized police.
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May 27, 2022 22:26
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Civilized Fishbot posted:unless they station an anarchist on every street corner to be ready to intervene in some brewing violence). this is how anarchists operate. when word on the street is that a mob of reactionaries are raring to go curbstomp some poor folk, they come out in force and present a credible threat to the fash. To elaborate on my position in general, "gun control" as present in our media and our politics exists as an exhaust vent for the trauma, anger, and ultimately agency, to ensure that none of that affects anything. the last 30 years should show, that engaging with any type of "gun control" advocacy ultimately does not produce results. but more than that, "gun control" the discussion exists as a distraction that will suck up all of the air in the room such that nothing else can be discussed. hell, you can see a microcosm of that play out in this very thread! ElrondHubbard posted:A whole heck of a lot more vulnerable people (trans, gay, leftist, etc…) die every year from guns, including via suicide, than are saved by actively opening fire on or threatening law enforcement or other violent groups (citation needed for any whatsoever). "banning guns" is not an option in our society. it is a fact of the matter that guns will continue to proliferate and empower the worst elements to inflict violence on the most vulnerable. as leftists, we have to deal with the material realities on the ground, and we would be well served to utilize firearms for the purpose of collective self defense in a responsible matter. that also means being aware of the dangers of self-harm and to take measures to assist our peers in removing especially dangerous means from them A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 22:34 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 22:28
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I'm sure I would be, because I live in a big city and try to follow the news pretty close and I've never heard of an anarchist community defense force shooting anyone in revenge (which is how deterrence would have to be enforced, unless they station an anarchist on every street corner to be ready to intervene in some brewing violence). some folks protesting cop violence set up a roadblock and murdered a little girl, so that happened https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/secoriea-turner-shooting-suspects-plead-not-guilty-in-8-year-olds-death
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May 27, 2022 22:30
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Abbott says the police lied to him: https://twitter.com/sewellchan/status/1530291957699837953 https://twitter.com/sewellchan/status/1530292089954750464 https://twitter.com/sewellchan/status/1530292492200968192 Oh and another politician interrupted the conference: https://twitter.com/disolis/status/1530297626863837189
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May 27, 2022 22:31
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A big flaming stink posted:you would probably be well served to research how anarchists behave as a community defense force to deter fascists from inflicting violence on the most vulnerable You would be well served by actually engaging with the reality of gun ownership in America, which so far is just THOUSANDS OF DEAD INNOCENTS. All left-wing gun ownership as a necessary evil or whatever does is prove gun humping crosses ideological lines and their owners will come up with the dumbest poo poo to make _their_ guns the good guns. Go gently caress yourself.
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May 27, 2022 22:31
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JehovahsWetness posted:You would be well served by actually engaging with the reality of gun ownership in America how the gently caress are you chiding me about the "reality of gun ownership in America" while in the same breath exhorting me to support electoral gun control??? that is literally never happening in the reality that is american politics! we CANT get rid of guns on the street! the only thing we can do is deal with that reality!
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May 27, 2022 22:33
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A big flaming stink posted:in the same breath exhorting me to support electoral gun control??? I don't believe I did that, I think I just told you to go gently caress yourself. Yep, right there at the end: JehovahsWetness posted:Go gently caress yourself. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 27, 2022 22:36
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A big flaming stink posted:"banning guns" is not an option in our society. it is a fact of the matter that guns will continue to proliferate and empower the worst elements to inflict violence on the most vulnerable. as leftists, we have to deal with the material realities on the ground, and we would be well served to utilize firearms for the purpose of collective self defense in a responsible matter. that also means being aware of the dangers of self-harm and to take measures to assist our peers in removing especially dangerous means from them These steps are "don't buy guns and if you have any guns get rid of them," and since you can't identify who is going to attempt suicide before it happens with any high degree of accuracy, that means this applies to literally everyone
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May 27, 2022 22:37
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Civilized Fishbot posted:You're proposing that the police regularly hold back from escalating violence because they don't want to get shot, which doesn't really seem to be how American police encounters play out in practice. I don't think it pacifies them, I think it just keeps the regular police riots from turning into pogroms or mass political killings.
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May 27, 2022 22:37
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You cannot negotiate with these people, and you cannot see eye to eye on anything. https://twitter.com/JesseKellyDC/status/1530199474265591808?s=20 The Republicans might feel they are ascendant in November, but things feel different.
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May 27, 2022 22:38
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The problem with the leftist gun nut arguments is that they are identical in every way to the right talking points because they come from the same source. The only thing they shift is who they need guns to protect themselves from. And even if one side is paranoid racists and the other has justifiable fears that doesn't make their gun hero fantasies any less ridiculous. And you can point to vulnerable people arming themselves out of fear but that is the point. It is out of fear, not actual effective protection. Someone a while back called them comforting placebos but that only works if you ignore everything surrounding the placebo. Guns are not going to protect you. If the Nazis start coming for us they will use Drones to murder anyone they want. Police are already cowardly, they're not suddenly going to be less so when they have permission to drop a drone strike on a 'dangerous area'. And the entire point is to prevent unity while making money. Divide anyone remotely on the left on guns while encouraging prepper buying. Assure you'll have more customers and more people willing to forgive anything in the name of guns.
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May 27, 2022 22:39
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Discendo Vox posted:arguments that are in effect contraptions specifically designed to make dialogue and deliberation impossible: A big flaming stink posted:how the gently caress are you chiding me about the "reality of gun ownership in America" while in the same breath exhorting me to support electoral gun control??? that is literally never happening in the reality that is american politics! we CANT get rid of guns on the street! the only thing we can do is deal with that reality!
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May 27, 2022 22:39
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Gumball Gumption posted:I don't think it pacifies them, I think it just keeps the regular police riots from turning into pogroms or mass political killings. The reason cops don't go ham on right wingers isn't because right wingers have guns, it's because the cops agree with them. The amount of violence the cops commit doesn't depend on how armed the people are, and all having guns would do is give them the green light to mow down literally everyone. Can you even imagine how many people they would kill in a protest if even one person shot at a cop?
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May 27, 2022 22:39
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Why are you trying to convince like 50 leftists that they shouldn't personally own guns? Unless a politician wants to pass a law or something it's not going to affect anything.
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May 27, 2022 22:48
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Nanomashoes posted:Why are you trying to convince like 50 leftists that they shouldn't personally own guns? Unless a politician wants to pass a law or something it's not going to affect anything. For the same reason that if there were people advocating to drive without a seatbelt because there are some cases where people get trapped in a car after an accident and would have lived if they weren't wearing a seatbelt, I'd call that out as stupid because not wearing a seatbelt makes you wildly less safe, and everyone should wear their seatbelt
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May 27, 2022 22:50
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Nanomashoes posted:Why are you trying to convince like 50 leftists that they shouldn't personally own guns? Unless a politician wants to pass a law or something it's not going to affect anything. Because this is the Debate and Discussion forum and when someone here makes an argument from a bizarre understanding of American social reality, it's time to debate/discuss that argument. This is not the "coordinate our activities to do only what will change the world" forum, it's the debate and discussion forum
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May 27, 2022 22:52
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Nanomashoes posted:Why are you trying to convince like 50 leftists that they shouldn't personally own guns? Unless a politician wants to pass a law or something it's not going to affect anything. Because the pressure to make things happen comes from unity. No change can happen socially or legally if people can't get on the same page. As long as people are clinging to their guns they won't support anything that might help and will continue to encourage others to go all-in on guns as a solution and necessary protection. Also because it is the stated purpose of this forum
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May 27, 2022 22:53
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A big flaming stink posted:you would probably be well served to research how anarchists behave as a community defense force to deter fascists from inflicting violence on the most vulnerable this experiment was run, and they shot a couple of black teenagers on the grounds they were making them feel unsafe
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May 27, 2022 22:54
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Lemming posted:For the same reason that if there were people advocating to drive without a seatbelt because there are some cases where people get trapped in a car after an accident and would have lived if they weren't wearing a seatbelt, I'd call that out as stupid because not wearing a seatbelt makes you wildly less safe, and everyone should wear their seatbelt What if I own a gun and I don't kill anyone with it and when Joe Brandon comes to take it I willingly surrender it, is that bad?
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May 27, 2022 22:55
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Like, yes. Any actual work here would undoubtedly take generations. If we banned all guns and started confiscations today, odds are that I would not live to see the point where we destroyed, say, 80% of them, because there's simply too many of them and too many people that would not comply. That's not a reason not to do it.
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May 27, 2022 22:56
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Nanomashoes posted:What if I own a gun and I don't kill anyone with it and when Joe Brandon comes to take it I willingly surrender it, is that bad? Why have a gun if you don't intend to kill someone with it? Even self defense is 'I own this gun to kill someone if they risk my life. If you enjoy the act of shooting every Gun Range I've ever seen allows you to rent guns. And if you just think they look neat then why not just a replica that can't fire?
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May 27, 2022 23:01
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Donald Trump's tribute to the victims was unexpected and delivered poorly as they seem to have a recording of a gong banging that interrupted his reading of their names. https://twitter.com/JustinGlawe/status/1530307317954142208?s=20 Nonsense fucked around with this message at 23:04 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 23:01
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