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Srice posted:What if they don't get those better things after many, many tries and stop then, instead of the first try? Like is there any evidence that there's a meaningful number of people that have voted exactly once then stopped? (And heck if there is I'd love to know if there's a breakdown wrt their reasons). It's probably either my guy lost or my guy won and sucked poo poo. nine-gear crow posted:Although in that case the people who normally never came out and voted that Trump courted were the type who go “I want to stick it to people I consider subhuman” and they came out to vote when Trump promised to actually stick it to all the people they considered subhuman, as opposed to the people who go “I want better things for people”, don’t get those better things on the first try, and then just go home sad and/or mad and are never seen again. True, but there may be a group of typical non voters who want to stick it to the Clintons, Obamas, Bidens and milquetoast establishment candidates of the world too. Or who want to stick it to cops, nazis, big banks, telecoms, the MIC, Insurance companies, etc. and everyone else they view as loving things up, same as I do. Maybe not but I would think there are enough. I'd really like another candidate that says "I welcome their scorn" and has the balls to say it when his policies challenge the economic wealthy status quo. I know you meant minorities, immigrants and gays in regard to Trump but he ALSO repeatedly singled out "the swamp" and do nothing, corrupt, bought politicians that brought out the "gently caress government" crowd, using his Big Businessman Outsider shtick. I think there might be more left leaning reachable bloc somewhere that has similar feelings about CEO's, Big Tech, the other things I pointed out (and also "the swamp").
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May 31, 2022 16:51
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RealityWarCriminal posted:States with two R Senators: AL, AK, AR, FL, ID, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, MS, MO, NE, ND, NC, OK, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, WY
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May 31, 2022 16:52
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Solkanar512 posted:Just because you don’t pay attention to what he says or how he’s limited by federal laws understood by elementary school children doesn’t mean “he just said meh”. Especially gently caress off with that last bit, he actually understands what it’s like to bury his own kids. drat, you really educated that guy who's upset about all the dead kids. I'm glad he now knows even the most powerful of us are helpless to stop it and even the president knows the futility of trying to keep your kids alive. Sorry folks, your kids are going to die violently and we're all helpless to stop it.
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May 31, 2022 16:58
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Oracle posted:Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are both very gettable this cycle. And I wouldn't count Georgia out just yet.
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May 31, 2022 17:00
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Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, I specifically addressed that: It's not just about money; I'm trying to dig it up, but I remember during the primary there was some polling done around support for different things with regard to Climate Change, and there was a noticeable shift in Democratic opinion after Biden backed something like continuing fracking or something like that (forgive me if this sounds vague, but I distinctly remember being depressed about how much control the Democratic establishment on Democratic opinion on stuff like this, though I can't immediately find the details of what I'm talking about) Maybe someone else remembers this happening? My takeaway was that the establishment does actually have a ton of pull with Democrats in general, and it's not just about spending. I think on the whole Democrats just trust their elected leaders more
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May 31, 2022 17:01
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Probably Magic posted:The guy literally gave a thumbs up to people screaming at him to do something about guns. Stow away the faked outrage. At least it wasn't finger guns
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May 31, 2022 17:01
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FlamingLiberal posted:I feel like we keep saying that Ron Johnson is easy to take out and we just keep getting disappointed I don't see the word 'easy' anywhere in that post. Its possible. His approval ratings are lower than Biden's, he's also a gaffe machine and Senate elections aren't subject to gerrymander the way congressional/state level elections are and there are more Democratic voters than Republicans in Wisconsin.
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May 31, 2022 17:02
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The Durham thing just wrapped up and Sussman is acquitted https://twitter.com/charlie_savage/status/1531666318428192768
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May 31, 2022 17:03
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nine-gear crow posted:Although in that case the people who normally never came out and voted that Trump courted were the type who go “I want to stick it to people I consider subhuman” and they came out to vote when Trump promised to actually stick it to all the people they considered subhuman, as opposed to the people who go “I want better things for people”, don’t get those better things on the first try, and then just go home sad and/or mad and are never seen again. That's a pretty broad brush there, and one that I believe is incorrect as well as dangerous. I watched a lot of Trump rallies when he first ran in 2016 and his overarching populist messages were Drain the Swamp and about other corruption. He even Loved the Gays & hugged the rainbow flag on stage. His "they're all assholes" message resonated among voters and particularly unengaged & never-before voters. To ignore this, and to brush away his entire appeal as HE'S RACIST AND HIS SUPPORTERS ALL ARE TOO only paves the way for the next Trump presidency--or the next Trump--out of liberal hubris. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 17:16 on May 31, 2022 |
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May 31, 2022 17:06
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haveblue posted:Didn’t they reform the superdelegate system after 2016? They instituted reforms like reducing their power at the convention, both in raw numbers and in not letting them vote on the first ballot, but didn't do away with them entirely, but they still allow lobbyists named as supers to overrepresent primary voters.
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May 31, 2022 17:07
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Solkanar512 posted:Just because you don’t pay attention to what he says or how he’s limited by federal laws understood by elementary school children doesn’t mean “he just said meh”. Especially gently caress off with that last bit, he actually understands what it’s like to bury his own kids. Gumball Gumption posted:drat, you really educated that guy who's upset about all the dead kids. I'm glad he now knows even the most powerful of us are helpless to stop it and even the president knows the futility of trying to keep your kids alive. Sorry folks, your kids are going to die violently and we're all helpless to stop it. No more of these please.
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May 31, 2022 17:09
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Oracle posted:Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are both very gettable this cycle. And I wouldn't count Georgia out just yet. NV & AZ will be Democratic losses. At best, there will be 49 D senators + Sinema/Manchin, and I doubt that Wisconsin is gettable, given that Biden's approval rating there is 20 pts. underwater. eta: Oracle posted:I don't see the word 'easy' anywhere in that post. Its possible. His approval ratings are lower than Biden's, he's also a gaffe machine and Senate elections aren't subject to gerrymander the way congressional/state level elections are and there are more Democratic voters than Republicans in Wisconsin. Wait, Johnson's more than -20 in approvals among Wisconsin voters? Do you have a source for that? Because it's unlikely the GOP wouldn't run a challenger against him if that's the case. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 17:15 on May 31, 2022 |
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May 31, 2022 17:10
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Bishyaler posted:Why use superdelegates to thwart someone when they can force candidates to drop to clear a path or have the media alternate between running hitpieces or leaving them out of discussions? You get the same effect without drawing any of the criticism for putting your finger on the scale. "They" did not "force" anyone to drop out. Some political negotiations probably went on, yes, but so what? Making a big deal over exactly when a bunch of losers with identical politics and dwindling prospects drop out is just pointless hairsplitting to avoid confronting the fact that there were more votes for centrist liberalism than there were for progressive leftism. If your prospects for victory rely on your ideological opposition splitting their vote five ways, then you don't actually have the popularity to win. I think you missed a key phrase in my post: "someone who defeated all the establishment candidates through being clearly more popular both ideologically and personally". Quibbling about the exact details of races that clearly did not include such a candidate is pointless. It's become extremely clear that there was not actually a silent leftist majority who normally didn't vote but would mobilize en masse for a true progressive. If Cruz and Rubio all did the fusion dance and retroactively combined their total votes behind a single candidate, then out of all the primaries that happened before Rubio dropped out, Trump still wins New Hampshire, Nevada, Alabama, Massachusetts, Vermont, Michigan, Mississippi, and Florida. He often won with some pretty comfortable leads. Even if you somehow fuse Kasich in there as well, Trump still manages to win a couple of those states, and Conservative Voltron only barely edges out a narrow victory in many of the rest. And it goes beyond Trump and the presidency, too! The Tea Party and its various successor movements have been decimating establishment Republicans since 2010.
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May 31, 2022 17:15
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AtomikKrab posted:The Democrats took Bernie seriously from the beginning, Bernie was already a Senator and a known threat Nearly everyone thought Trump was a joke at first. I will never forget seeing Larry Wilmore on The Nightly Show describe Trump's entry into the Republican presidential primary as "a gift from the gods of comedy", complete with divine-themed music, lighting, and sound effects.
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May 31, 2022 17:15
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The angriest Obama got during his entire presidency was after Sandy Hook and he still got literally nothing done, so to me inaction on mass shootings is not the same total abdication of duty that the rest of Biden's failures -- infrastructure, health care, housing, grocery prices, student debt, etc. -- have marked up to this point. Really appreciate the thread's unyielding respect for the constitution and the rule of law, though, given that the reason we're doomed to infinitely repeat this stupid situation is because of our dumbass constitution.
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May 31, 2022 17:16
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Lemming posted:It's not just about money; I'm trying to dig it up, but I remember during the primary there was some polling done around support for different things with regard to Climate Change, and there was a noticeable shift in Democratic opinion after Biden backed something like continuing fracking or something like that (forgive me if this sounds vague, but I distinctly remember being depressed about how much control the Democratic establishment on Democratic opinion on stuff like this, though I can't immediately find the details of what I'm talking about) Here we go: https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/biden-polls-fracking/ quote:These trends are more pronounced among voters who self-identify as Democrats. Democratic voters’ support for a 2035 clean-electricity standard held steady after the debates at 67 percent. Their support for a $2 trillion clean-energy infrastructure investment grew five points, from 66 percent to 71 percent. And their support for a fracking ban dropped an eye-popping 16 points, from 65 percent to 49 percent. During the debates, Biden rejected the idea of a ban on fracking, and Democratic support for it dropped 16 points like, immediately. You really can't ignore that the Democratic establishment has a large and direct effect on the views of Democrats as a whole, and you can't just sidestep it and say that the leadership is *just* a reflection of what the base believes. This means that the Democrats in charge have a lot of ability to sway the opinion of Democratic voters
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May 31, 2022 17:20
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The angriest Obama got during his entire presidency was after Sandy Hook and he still got literally nothing done, so to me inaction on mass shootings is not the same total abdication of duty that the rest of Biden's failures -- infrastructure, health care, housing, grocery prices, student debt, etc. -- have marked up to this point. The constitution is like cops; I don’t respect it, I am contemptuous of and don’t trust people who do, and the second it’s got it’s back turned I am heading the other way and doing my own thing. That NBC story this morning is dire; there is obviously nobody at the wheel in the White House: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-white-house-adrift-rcna30121 I’m betting we see primary challenges from Biden’s right and left in ‘24, barring some miracle dementia treatment coming to the market.
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May 31, 2022 17:37
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Herstory Begins Now posted:At least it wasn't finger guns Pretending Joe Biden is just Sam Rockwell in makeup may help me get through this administration easier, so I thank you for that image.
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May 31, 2022 17:43
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Lemming posted:Here we go: Yeah that was a pretty direct refutation of the self-flattering "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line" adage. Democrat voters are as obedient as it gets
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May 31, 2022 17:44
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Lemming posted:Here we go: for a more object example from these very forums, it was amazing watching peoples' opinion on whether or not Trump should be impeached making an immediate 180 degree turn the moment Pelosi said 'yeah okay we'll do it.' the democratic leadership has the ability to take people with no strong opinions on something, but identify as democrats, and tell them what they believe now. the points where they choose to do this tells you what their actual political priorities are. the most recent object example of which being the Cuellar campaign, where their messaging informed such people that a good Democrat doesnt need to consider abortion a -right-, or the NRA an -enemy-, when there are other, more conciliatory positions available.
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May 31, 2022 17:47
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:for a more object example from these very forums, it was amazing watching peoples' opinion on whether or not Trump should be impeached making an immediate 180 degree turn the moment Pelosi said 'yeah okay we'll do it.' I'd like some examples of this? Who in US CE was on the ropes about impeachment prior to Pelosi? This is more for my curiosity, really.
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May 31, 2022 17:50
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selec posted:The constitution is like cops; I don’t respect it, I am contemptuous of and don’t trust people who do, and the second it’s got it’s back turned I am heading the other way and doing my own thing. the dream of the Biden administration was that he'd get in charge and then behold, in the absence of Trump's incompetence all the problems would just kind of recede into the background again. to quote Biden from back before his aides had to retcon every word coming out of his mouth, 'the fever has to break. It has to.' in one bizarre way it's the perfect successor to the Obama years: the president figured that through the act of being elected he would heal the country, and then discovered to his horror that wait, poo poo, all the problems are still there, and worse, those disgusting plebs expect me to try to solve them. don't they know I ran on my proud refusal to do that? there will be no primary from biden's right because the right wing of the Dems has nothing they'd ask Biden to do that he isn't already doing (which is to say: beating the poo poo out of immigrants, black people, and foreigners in the hopes it will make republicans like them more) and if there's a primary from the left it will be opposed tooth and nail by a united front. as the California Democratic Party says, better someone who thinks they still share a party with Strom Thurmond than someone who thinks concentration camps are bad.
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May 31, 2022 18:01
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CommieGIR posted:I'd like some examples of this? Who in US CE was on the ropes about impeachment prior to Pelosi? This is more for my curiosity, really. jarmak and fulchrum (rip) were the two I remember making the most abrupt changes; there were arguments about how actually Pelosi was being a wise stateswoman 'letting Trump hang himself' the week before she finally cracked and started the process.
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May 31, 2022 18:03
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This morning an acquaintance asked me for advice regarding the L.A. ballot and I directed her to the same resource I used, put together by a progressive activist. So I have gone from being a lone voice crying in the voting wilderness to doubling the progressive footprint.
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May 31, 2022 18:03
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:jarmak and fulchrum (rip) were the two I remember making the most abrupt changes; there were arguments about how actually Pelosi was being a wise stateswoman 'letting Trump hang himself' the week before she finally cracked and started the process. That explains a few things, yeah.
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May 31, 2022 18:04
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Lemming posted:It's not just about money; I'm trying to dig it up, but I remember during the primary there was some polling done around support for different things with regard to Climate Change, and there was a noticeable shift in Democratic opinion after Biden backed something like continuing fracking or something like that (forgive me if this sounds vague, but I distinctly remember being depressed about how much control the Democratic establishment on Democratic opinion on stuff like this, though I can't immediately find the details of what I'm talking about) Depends on the issue. Sometimes people don't really have a strong opinion on an issue and will easily follow their party's stance on it. Sometimes they have a strong opinion that won't move even if the party tries to shift it. Sometimes the party is able to pull people into a position, but convinces them well enough that they strongly latch onto that position and resist changing later. For example, the GOP base abandoned hawkish Russophobia in a hot minute once Trump started praising Putin; this is a case of something they didn't really have a strong opinion about, but were just halfheartedly following party orthodoxy on. As a more complex example, the GOP definitely pushed a lot more people toward being antivaxx in response to COVID...but once that happened, people got locked in and weren't so easily moved out of that position. Trump later advocated vaccination (and claimed credit for the vaccines), only to be booed by his own diehard supporters.
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May 31, 2022 18:09
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Main Paineframe posted:"They" did not "force" anyone to drop out. Some political negotiations probably went on, yes, but so what? Making a big deal over exactly when a bunch of losers with identical politics and dwindling prospects drop out is just pointless hairsplitting to avoid confronting the fact that there were more votes for centrist liberalism than there were for progressive leftism. If your prospects for victory rely on your ideological opposition splitting their vote five ways, then you don't actually have the popularity to win. i'm confused as to why you're trying to defend the system designed to prevent the public from actually having an impact. even beyond the "well, they didn't force anyone", this is completely ignorant of the chilling effects of said undemocratic processes the superdelegate system allowed the establishment to constantly call into question "electability", because any non-establishment candidate was at an immediate disadvantage both in literal numbers, but also in the resulting apathy. why bother voting or participating in our supposed democracy if the establishment has already signaled that their unelected sect of delegates won't respect actual voters? again, to quote the actual people of the party, quote:Schultz's response was, "Unpledged delegates exist really to make sure that party leaders and elected officials don't have to be in a position where they are running against grass-roots activists . . . And so we separate out those unpledged delegates to make sure that there isn't competition between them. and it had the exact results that were intended: used to call into question the viability of anyone other than the party's chosen: quote:Nevertheless, many outlets, including the Associated Press, NBC, CBS, and Politico, continued to report the candidate delegate totals by lumping the superdelegates into the totals, inflating Hillary Clinton's lead by over 400 delegates.[53] Critics alleged that this created a perception of insurmountability[54][55] and that it was done in order to discourage would-be Sanders supporters Lemming posted:Here we go: -Blackadder- posted:I mean those in power are always going to put their thumb on the scale and protect their position by gatekeeping, just as the moderate Dems are doing now. And they'd be stupid not to, as would the Left if they ever gained power. it's absolutely not pointless to bring up and reiterate how hosed up and broken the system is when you have people, right now, trying to paper over it with "well, it's not that big of a deal". it's hosed up and it needs to change. trump also didn't obliterate everyone else. trumpo didn't actually win any with >50% of the vote in any state primary until new york, after almost everyone else (other than kasich and cruz) had finally dropped out and endorsed him. early primaries where he started collecting wins were relatively close, often 30-40% trump was not some sort of super genius or electoral god, the gop was just too busy eating its own to notice that the clown was winning until it was too late.
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May 31, 2022 18:12
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CommieGIR posted:That explains a few things, yeah. it's a little contrary to the ethos of dems to admit it, but no, really, some people really do just follow their marching orders without thinking about it at all. which makes them confused, and then angry, when the boss's orders are all immediately followed up with 'what Joe MEANT to say was-'
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May 31, 2022 18:12
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Main Paineframe posted:Depends on the issue. Sometimes people don't really have a strong opinion on an issue and will easily follow their party's stance on it. Sometimes they have a strong opinion that won't move even if the party tries to shift it. Sometimes the party is able to pull people into a position, but convinces them well enough that they strongly latch onto that position and resist changing later. It's basic human behavior, political parties are one of the groups you see yourself a part of and you look to the leaders of those groups for influences on what you believe and think but that's not cut and dry since, and Trump and vaccines is a good example here, as something gets folded into a belief of the group it becomes entrenched and then that leader is just exposing themselves as not "really" being part of the group. Though that's also influenced by internal power struggle who want to push him out as a leader of the group and are encouraging anti-vax as something to push him out with. Something comparable for the Democrats would be abortion where being pro-choice or not is splitting people. Is leadership right that you don't need to be pro-choice to be a Democrat or are the leaders losing sight of what Democrats are?
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May 31, 2022 18:17
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Main Paineframe posted:"They" did not "force" anyone to drop out. Some political negotiations probably went on, yes, but so what?  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 31, 2022 18:25
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/30/us-mass-shootings-will-continue-until-the-majority-can-overrule-the-minorityquote:US mass shootings will continue until the majority can overrule the minority Repeat with every issue. The left needs leaders who will talk about nothing else but this. Instead of trying to explain economics and appeal to material needs, use something simpler - you're disenfranchised. Works with African Americans as far as being a reliable voting block, let's have it work for everyone who isn't an fascist and lives in an urban area.
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May 31, 2022 18:53
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DarkCrawler posted:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/30/us-mass-shootings-will-continue-until-the-majority-can-overrule-the-minority Minority rule is hard-coded into our system of government. Pointing out the problem repeatedly isn't fixing it, what would you propose we do?
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May 31, 2022 18:59
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How do we even begin to fix this? https://twitter.com/KateAronoff/status/1529449537848459264
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May 31, 2022 19:04
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Bishyaler posted:Minority rule is hard-coded into our system of government. Pointing out the problem repeatedly isn't fixing it, what would you propose we do? Start by actually pointing out the problem, in terms and rhetoric that make people angry and never stop reminding them. The left doesn't spend one thousandth of the time talking about how hosed up it is that some votes are worth more and some votes worth less then it spends on dozen other subjects, NONE which will ever be achieved under the current undemocratic system. Take a page from the book of the Civil Rights movement and focus on the biggest, most egregious unfairness. Priorities.
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May 31, 2022 19:06
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Bishyaler posted:Minority rule is hard-coded into our system of government. Pointing out the problem repeatedly isn't fixing it, what would you propose we do? Pointing out the problem is actually a good thing, if your goal is to actually expand leftism. I do agree that ideally you also offer a solution. But it's not required.
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May 31, 2022 19:11
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The left, whatever that means in this context, does talk about that. It's baked into our system and neither party wants to change it because it benefits them. I keep bringing up packing the courts since that's a really simple option Democrats could rally around and run on like you're saying and be the start of unwinding the problem of a minority controlling a majority. No one in the Democrats seem willing at all to pack the courts or even entertain the idea. And when disenfranchised people do the things the disenfranchised do their response has been to crack down and support the police. America is a minority controlled country is also American civics 101. It's baked into every conversation we have about politics if this thread isn't enough of an example. Everything is theory since we know at the end of the day the answer is "whoops sorry never enough votes for good things". To be clear, I don't disagree. People should be very mad about this and it gets brought up a lot. But you're also dropping your simple solution of get everyone so mad about this we get a constitutional convention that unwinds the minority rule of America which isn't really that simple. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 19:16 on May 31, 2022 |
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May 31, 2022 19:14
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DarkCrawler posted:Start by actually pointing out the problem, in terms and rhetoric that make people angry and never stop reminding them. The left doesn't spend one thousandth of the time talking about how hosed up it is that some votes are worth more and some votes worth less then it spends on dozen other subjects, NONE which will ever be achieved under the current undemocratic system. Take a page from the book of the Civil Rights movement and focus on the biggest, most egregious unfairness. Priorities. Leftists have been talking about this but okay, let's carry this plan of action through to its logical conclusion. We get them really mad.... and then what?
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May 31, 2022 19:18
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Gumball Gumption posted:No one in the Democrats seem willing at all to pack the courts or even entertain the idea. If you want to say that you don't think the Democrats will successfully get the votes together in congress to pass a bill to pack the court, then thats one thing but a quick google search shows that this sentence is just completely flat-out wrong.
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May 31, 2022 19:18
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the dream of the Biden administration was that he'd get in charge and then behold, in the absence of Trump's incompetence all the problems would just kind of recede into the background again. to quote Biden from back before his aides had to retcon every word coming out of his mouth, 'the fever has to break. It has to.' Completely ignoring that it was ‘moderates’ like the ‘Problem Solvers Caucus’ or Manchin/Sinema that killed BBB
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May 31, 2022 19:19
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Rigel posted:If you want to say that you don't think the Democrats will successfully get the votes together in congress to pass a bill to pack the court, then thats one thing but a quick google search shows that this sentence is just completely flat-out wrong. Links? I'd love to actually talk about them instead of being told I'm wrong. It should be a unity rallying cry right now is my point though and it's not. If the answer to the majority of problems is to elect more Democrats that gives a direct example of what more Democrats can do to take us off the rails to fascism.
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May 31, 2022 19:20
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