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Koos Group posted:No. That was just a guest probie. Don't you usually need enthusiastic consent for something like that?
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Jun 2, 2022 19:02
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Lib and let die posted:Don't you usually need enthusiastic consent for something like that? Fun fact. Hospitals will often allow training medical staff to perform pelvic exams on anesthetized patients before scheduled procedures. This is done without the patient knowing or consenting in many cases, and is legal in most states. 
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Jun 2, 2022 19:20
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Nvm
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Jun 2, 2022 19:30
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Fun fact. Hospitals will often allow training medical staff to perform pelvic exams on anesthetized patients before scheduled procedures. This is done without the patient knowing or consenting in many cases, and is legal in most states. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6882529/ Wow, I am positively horrified about ever being put under again. Thank you.
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Jun 2, 2022 19:31
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Are any other procedures taught without consent while the patient is unconscious or is this specifically misogynist rape culture I know in my heart what the answer is
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Jun 2, 2022 19:35
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Fun fact. Hospitals will often allow training medical staff to perform pelvic exams on anesthetized patients before scheduled procedures. This is done without the patient knowing or consenting in many cases, and is legal in most states. many med students and interns are horrified by this at first but their displeasure leading to their lack of participation is soon beaten out of them through a combination of it potentially affecting their grades/the recs of their superiors and also through exposure therapy until they consider it normal behavior. Some do continuously refuse to participate and excoriate the process. Which is absolutely the correct response* *addendum to my use of "correct." They are legal adults, usually in their mid-twenties, making conscious decisions about what they are doing and know enough about ethics to know this is not okay, however, the system and their superiors absolutely do have an influence on their decision-making and what constitutes ethical Cranappleberry fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jun 2, 2022 |
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Jun 2, 2022 19:37
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i thought that was going to be unisex / equal, but I guess no one cares about dicks.
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Jun 2, 2022 19:43
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Jaxyon posted:Are any other procedures taught without consent while the patient is unconscious or is this specifically misogynist rape culture When I learned of this practice this was my first thought as well. How many prostate exams are they performing in this manner? It is absolutely professionally accepted rape culture, no matter the gender of the people it is done to. Cranappleberry posted:many med students and interns are horrified by this at first but their displeasure leading to their lack of participation is soon beaten out of them through a combination of it potentially affecting their grades/the recs of their superiors and also through exposure therapy until they consider it normal behavior. I found out from a friend that was a med student at a local learning hospital.
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Jun 2, 2022 19:45
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it's not like they don't have examples of women finding out this happened to them later during completely unrelated procedures or surgeries and being horrified by it, either.
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Jun 2, 2022 19:48
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Jaxyon posted:Are any other procedures taught without consent while the patient is unconscious or is this specifically misogynist rape culture My further reading has led me to conclude that this occurs with prostate exams as well. They're referred to as Unconsented intimate exams (UIEs).
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Jun 2, 2022 19:53
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CmdrRiker posted:My further reading has led me to conclude that this occurs with prostate exams as well. They're referred to as Unconsented intimate exams (UIEs). Oh so just general rape culture. But specifically only ever done on genital exams and not like, feet?
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Jun 2, 2022 20:03
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Jaxyon posted:Oh so just general rape culture. But specifically only ever done on genital exams and not like, feet? my understanding is that this is something that occurs in training hospitals for many types of bodily exams.
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Jun 2, 2022 20:05
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Jaxyon posted:Oh so just general rape culture. But specifically only ever done on genital exams and not like, feet? I think those cases don't receive many complaints until you get to the 'removed the wrong _______' cases
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Jun 2, 2022 20:06
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Fun fact. Hospitals will often allow training medical staff to perform pelvic exams on anesthetized patients before scheduled procedures. This is done without the patient knowing or consenting in many cases, and is legal in most states. Did some googling, and for the record it is now banned in New York, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Washington, Florida, California, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Virginia, and Oregon.
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Jun 2, 2022 20:09
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I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I was just trying to make an off-color joke. I didn't want to open a new box of horrors for the thread.
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Jun 2, 2022 20:13
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Jaxyon posted:Oh so just general rape culture. But specifically only ever done on genital exams and not like, feet? Nah, if they're cutting you open they'll also have med students poke around without your consent. The general answer here though is "is it something they think the average person would say no to if we suggested we led a med student use you as a training dummy for a few minutes?" then they'll do it while you're under sedation. I'm sure the racist and sexist doctors have that influence who they pick.
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Jun 2, 2022 20:14
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Well my day is worse now with this info loving christ
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Jun 2, 2022 21:31
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It’s teaching hospitals and all exams. If you want to avoid it avoid teaching hospitals.
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Jun 2, 2022 21:31
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https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/what-informed-consent-really-means According to the AAMC (Association of American Medical Colleges) that is not allowed anymore. This is that ugly area where state laws, federal guidelines, and medical associations differ. If the AAMC says it's unethical, but that state doesn't have a specific law saying it's illegal, I'd hope the teaching college would follow the AAMC's guidelines.
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Jun 2, 2022 21:37
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CmdrRiker posted:https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/what-informed-consent-really-means But we already know they don't. Seems like a good cause for federal legislation.
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Jun 2, 2022 21:39
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The teaching hospitals that I’m familiar with hire professionals who volunteer their bodies and specialize in coaching students through doing the exams appropriately. Those are larger institutions and my experience is anecdotal, so who knows what the actual rate is.
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Jun 2, 2022 21:49
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The QAnon nonsense is getting worse and worse, and it's being pushed by people like this county Sheriff who can use his resources to try and spin absurd lies as truth to settle political scores. In this case he's going after the county attorney for not endorsing him. https://www.thedailybeast.com/utah-county-gripped-by-accusations-of-phony-murder-and-cannibalization-of-kids?source=twitter&via=desktop quote:Utah County Gripped by Bizarre Accusations of Murder and Cannibalization of Kids quote:A wild QAnon conspiracy theory that has followers convinced progressives rape and eat kids has bubbled into a small county in Utah. quote:The 151-page report, which was released by the sheriff Wednesday among law enforcement but has not been made public, is said to name Leavitt and his wife as integral figures in the trumped up conspiracy. The report claims the abuse took place between 1990 and 2010 and was carried out in three Utah counties.
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Jun 2, 2022 22:00
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:But we already know they don't. Seems like a good cause for federal legislation. Yes. The thing that is quite confounding to me is just the other week during my own pelvic exam they asked for my consent to allow a student come in and just watch my examination. How do they possibly feel the need to ask for that but not ask to have the entire superfluous procedure done in the first place? Is it only the unconscious consent loophole or are there also insurance reasons as well? Never thought I would be talking about my personal reproductive health on the USPOL thread, but here we are. I'll take my probe now.
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Jun 2, 2022 22:02
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Lib and let die posted:I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I was just trying to make an off-color joke. I didn't want to open a new box of horrors for the thread. Not your fault. It's not common knowledge and you typically do not find out unless it happens to you (and then you find out later) or it happens to someone you know (and then they find out) or you are close to a doctor or doctor-in-training that was exposed to it. World Famous W posted:Well my day is worse now with this info Not anywhere near how bad things have been in the past, but that is not meant to be comforting or minimizing, just reality. Let me impress that it's a violating assault and while it's not necessarily outright hidden, people it happens to are not often told about it and sometimes only find out by checking the itemized list of insurance payouts and stuff they owe copays on. Sorry to continue a harsh topic that is making many people uncomfortable but the medical system can be boggling in it's banal cruelty.
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Jun 2, 2022 22:13
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Dick Trauma posted:The QAnon nonsense is getting worse and worse, and it's being pushed by people like this county Sheriff who can use his resources to try and spin absurd lies as truth to settle political scores. In this case he's going after the county attorney for not endorsing him.
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Jun 2, 2022 22:36
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FlamingLiberal posted:This is going to be the Satanic Panic but many times worse, isn't it
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Jun 2, 2022 22:38
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FlamingLiberal posted:This is going to be the Satanic Panic but many times worse, isn't it I mean, the historical parallels are pretty plain. One party psyches itself up on violent rhetoric about dumb poo poo like this, siezes power, then crushes all political opposition with both extralegal means and rewriting the laws while perverting the courts. Doesn't take one of the Oracles to tell the future of the country.
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Jun 2, 2022 22:45
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Dick Trauma posted:The QAnon nonsense is getting worse and worse, and it's being pushed by people like this county Sheriff who can use his resources to try and spin absurd lies as truth to settle political scores. In this case he's going after the county attorney for not endorsing him. Is there a libel or slander suit for something like this?
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Jun 2, 2022 22:52
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Medical exam chat: Having trained in a place that respects gun rights more than human rights, as far back as a decade ago the shift away from authoritative physicians with assumed consent was well under way. Simulation labs and trained standardized patients are how most basic exam skills are learned. Informed consent laws vary by state and institution. Some states are very explicit, line by line, about what you can expect (including presence of trainees) while some lovely states like Mississippi actual are encouraged to be as vague as possible so people are less likely to be held liable. Whenever you're signing your informed consent documentation it usually covers presence of trainees but you can always ask and people should let you know that trainees may be present and what they may do. I wouldn't go to a facility that is shy about that. Re: training hospital versus private hospital, I don't have the stats immediately on hand but at a training hospital you are more likely to have a minor complication and less likely to have a major complication or die. Training hospitals are, well, training hospitals though so if you don't want trainees involved in your care, don't go to a training hospital. TL:DR; training hospitals should be telling you what trainees will do and you should feel empowered to ask, and in addition to making sure there are more people capable of providing care you're less likely to have a major problem. Places/practitioners that don't disclose should be the exception and are certainly an abberation that should be reported.
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Jun 2, 2022 23:03
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I don't want to hear any poo poo about boomers from men under 50 ever again.   That's from a new survey by the SPLC. Also,   LINK FOR THE BUTTHURT TWAT WHO REPORTED THIS POST BECAUSE I DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY PROVIDE IT: https://www.splcenter.org/news/2022/06/01/poll-finds-support-great-replacement-hard-right-ideas Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jun 3, 2022 |
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Jun 2, 2022 23:06
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Is there a libel or slander suit for something like this? I suspect this is going to be a lot more complicated than that, because the Sheriff never released these accusations publicly. So far, we have no proof of that the accusations were actually made. Just the word of the County Attorney, who held a 35-minute press conference in which he claimed another sheriff's office told him about it, and in which he made reference to things like "decades-old accusations" and "a mentally ill woman".
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Jun 2, 2022 23:16
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Willa Rogers posted:I don't want to hear any poo poo about boomers from men under 50 ever again. One of the many, many things that bother me with this survey is how many younger Democratic women think that feminisim has rotted people's minds.
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Jun 2, 2022 23:16
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I don't even know how to begin unraveling the republican women piece of that. "Choice is unnecessary. *years later* Yep, I mostly made the right choice."
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Jun 2, 2022 23:17
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https://twitter.com/Anna_Giaritelli/status/1532081283915988992 cops are copping to previously unrecorded heights! im not sure if this is further damnation of their actions or just them "simply" going full on siege mentality
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Jun 2, 2022 23:20
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Willa Rogers posted:I don't want to hear any poo poo about boomers from men under 50 ever again. There's some wild info there. Can you share the link? I wonder how many of the younger subset are equating feminism with the literal embodiment of Hillary Clinton because Jesus those are not numbers I would expect. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jun 2, 2022 |
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Jun 2, 2022 23:24
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Willa Rogers posted:I don't want to hear any poo poo about boomers from men under 50 ever again.  I am so confused by this on all fronts. Do you have a link to the underlying data/report?
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Jun 2, 2022 23:26
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Main Paineframe posted:So far, we have no proof of that the accusations were actually made. Just the word of the County Attorney, who held a 35-minute press conference in which he claimed another sheriff's office told him about it, and in which he made reference to things like "decades-old accusations" and "a mentally ill woman". You sound like a shill for Big Cannibal! 
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Jun 2, 2022 23:28
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I googled "survery" and "splc". https://www.splcenter.org/news/2022/06/01/poll-finds-support-great-replacement-hard-right-ideas
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Jun 2, 2022 23:30
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It's from the SPLC https://www.splcenter.org/news/2022/06/01/poll-finds-support-great-replacement-hard-right-ideas#replacement
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Jun 2, 2022 23:31
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I wonder which musicians will be testifying in front of congress this time. Might spin frank zappa out his grave and into a hearing
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Jun 2, 2022 23:32
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