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Saladman
Jan 12, 2010
Yeah reading it again I see you actually never have swung a golf club before, but could do so. I'd definitely recommend to actually go and do so! Just email the St Andrews guys honestly and ask if that's fine that you don't know your putter from your five iron. If they're fine with a from-zero beginner doing the course and you're fine paying £1400 for lessons that you could do for $400 at home (albeit in a much less cool place) then go for it.

To be honest they probably do have a place for absolute zero beginners there, because I'm sure lots of old guys bring their 33 year old third wives there and have them do beginner lessons while they drink whiskey and smoke cigars on the Old Course, or whatever it is that one does there.

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Cheese Thief
Oct 30, 2020
Saladman, posts like yours are why I still log in to the forum. Thanks I think I’ll take lessons at home and do something like a Yoga retreat somewhere off of Portugal, or something. You are absolutely right I believe.

Elysium
Aug 21, 2003
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
Planning an Italy trip in September, that's the easy part. Trying to throw in an extra country as a free stopover. Any general thoughts on Lisbon or Dublin? I know seems kind of different/random after an Italy trip but seems like if we're going all that way might as well for "free" while we're out there right?

Saladman
Jan 12, 2010

Elysium posted:

Planning an Italy trip in September, that's the easy part. Trying to throw in an extra country as a free stopover. Any general thoughts on Lisbon or Dublin? I know seems kind of different/random after an Italy trip but seems like if we're going all that way might as well for "free" while we're out there right?

I mean, both can be nice. Depends entirely what you like and how much out of the way it is. Personally I'd go with Lisbon in nearly any choice between the two, but some people like Dublin, and probably there are some people who don't like Lisbon. I found Dublin extremely nice but at the same time extremely "generic modern European city", like if someone had procedurally generated a clearly European city, yet one which would be hard to place in any particular country. It's nice enough though and I don't think you could go wrong either way.

kiimo
Jul 24, 2003

You could drive to Austria or Slovenia just sayin

asur
Dec 28, 2012
Stopovers and long layovers are not free when you add in the time and effort required. Unless you're trying to rack up countries visited I'd highly suggest spending more time in Italy. If you're already spending 2 weeks in Italy then you could visit Monaco and/or the south of France, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia. Sardegna and Malta are options too.

Lisbon needs at minimum a full day and two partial days to see it and the surrounding area and that would be the bare minimum, I would recommend more time. It's not a bad option to chain on to a trip though since if you don't love it you can cross off Portugal.

Dublin is not worth visiting on its own and you'll see it anyway if you visit Ireland.

Elysium
Aug 21, 2003
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
It would be 4-5 days at any place we can find a flight that would normally have a layover in that city, which would likely be happening anyway, unless we shell out more for a nonstop. Dublin and Lisbon came up because there seemed to be a lot of layovers there. I’ve found a lot more by switching the order of our Italy open-jaw (from MXP-FCO to FCO-MXP). Barcelona seems good as well.

So, take whatever flight out, splurge for nonstop if we like, and then the options are:

Fly non-stop back for ~60-70k points plus taxes.
Fly one-stop back for ~35k points plus taxes.
Fly to Barcelona for 0 points (+$50 in cash taxes), stay there for 4-5 days and then fly back non-stop from there for 25k points plus taxes.

Since we were generally looking at those one stoppers anyway, the third option seemed appealing.

Bollock Monkey
Jan 21, 2007

The Almighty

asur posted:

Dublin is not worth visiting on its own and you'll see it anyway if you visit Ireland.
This is bollocks, sorry.

Elysium - we've just been talking about short trips to Dublin, have a look at my posts in here.

Lisbon is awesome and I think 5 days is about right. We had 5 nights and spent two days in Sintra. I've posted about that trip here as well I think.

But if Barcelona looks cool then go for it!

Saladman
Jan 12, 2010
Yeah there are a bunch of posts on on Barcelona recently too, no more than a couple pages back. I don't think there's too much on Lisbon in this thread, but if you have search access you can look through and probably find enough suggestions, although you can also just look at Wikivoyage recommendations which are usually pretty detailed and reliable for major tourist destination cities.

For either city, September also should be good as the hordes of tourists who overtake the city in summer for both Lisbon and Barcelona will be slightly reduced. I've seen pictures of Pena Palace that make the crowds there look like a particularly busy day at Disney World.

Pookah
Aug 21, 2008

🪶Caw🪶





Check what accommodation is available in Dublin around the time you're thinking of visiting - it will probably be in v. short supply and eye-wateringly expensive :(

Fruits of the sea
Dec 1, 2010

Yeah, Sintra is amazing and 5 days gives you plenty of time to check it out. The moorish castle of course, but Quinte da Regaleira is also deeply weird and cool. It's basically what if a billionaire from 120(?) years ago hired a schizophrenic gardener to build Hogwarts. MAAT is an amazing art museum in Lisbon that's worth checking out. The city itself is beautiful in a decaying grandeur sort of way. You can spend a day just walking up and down the coast of the city.

Get ready to consume excessive amounts of olive oil.

E: One thing I wish I had known before coming there is that some hard drug possession is legal. Not because I like to party, more that you shouldn't be too sketched out when dudes try to sell you coke on the street.

Also there's a huge Nepalese community which means some loving awesome food. See what restaurants you can find on Tripadvisor in your area. Momo is delicious, it's a Nepalese take on dumplings.

Fruits of the sea fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Jun 3, 2022

Entropist
Dec 1, 2007
I'm very stupid.
If you look years back there should be info on Lisbon, I remember some extensive discussions in which I also recommended a bunch of places.

Fruits of the sea posted:

E: One thing I wish I had known before coming there is that some hard drug possession is legal. Not because I like to party, more that you shouldn't be too sketched out when dudes try to sell you coke on the street.

Yeah, I think I kept track of it and I was offered like 25 times in one week. It depends on your looks though, some Asian girls who went to the same summer school only got two or three offers. I don't think I've been in any other place with so much blatant street dealing, and I live in Amsterdam.

Cheese Thief
Oct 30, 2020

Elysium posted:

Planning an Italy trip in September, that's the easy part. Trying to throw in an extra country as a free stopover. Any general thoughts on Lisbon or Dublin? I know seems kind of different/random after an Italy trip but seems like if we're going all that way might as well for "free" while we're out there right?

Me too, I'm going to hit up a 5 day yoga retreat in Sicily. It's only $500 and on the beach. Sounds cool to me as a solo traveller to hang out in a group setting.

Fruits of the sea
Dec 1, 2010

Entropist posted:

Yeah, I think I kept track of it and I was offered like 25 times in one week. It depends on your looks though, some Asian girls who went to the same summer school only got two or three offers. I don't think I've been in any other place with so much blatant street dealing, and I live in Amsterdam.

LMAO yes, apparently I am the drug user in the relationship because my girlfriend never got any offers.

Elysium
Aug 21, 2003
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
Ok, one more, then time to make some decisions: Brussels.

Electric Wrigglies
Feb 6, 2015

Fruits of the sea posted:

Yeah, Sintra is amazing and 5 days gives you plenty of time to check it out. The moorish castle of course, but Quinte da Regaleira is also deeply weird and cool. It's basically what if a billionaire from 120(?) years ago hired a schizophrenic gardener to build Hogwarts. MAAT is an amazing art museum in Lisbon that's worth checking out. The city itself is beautiful in a decaying grandeur sort of way. You can spend a day just walking up and down the coast of the city.

Get ready to consume excessive amounts of olive oil.

E: One thing I wish I had known before coming there is that some hard drug possession is legal. Not because I like to party, more that you shouldn't be too sketched out when dudes try to sell you coke on the street.

Also there's a huge Nepalese community which means some loving awesome food. See what restaurants you can find on Tripadvisor in your area. Momo is delicious, it's a Nepalese take on dumplings.

I love Sintra, love that crazy multi-level expansive garden although a bit more upkeep would be great. Loved walking around Lisbon, the Russian doormen refused to let my bro and his mate into nightclubs with their Scottish kilts was a bit weird, Drug offers were common. Food is great - went to Timeout which was a big hall of a fair few different food vendors, had some of the best seafood there. It was pretty reasonable budget wise as well.

On the coast was quite nice although that bridge has to be the loudest road noise bridge I have ever experienced.

Lisbon is right up there with Yerevan for favorite city in the world and will go back at some stage.

Saladman
Jan 12, 2010

Elysium posted:

Ok, one more, then time to make some decisions: Brussels.

If Paris didn’t exist, Brussels would probably rate a lot higher on my "unique European cities" list. But as it is, it’s like a pretty well done knockoff. It’s one of those cities that’s totally worth a stop if you’re going from Amsterdam to Paris and it has a lot of variety if you live and work there, but that I wouldn’t really prioritize if it was out of my way and I had other options.

I’m also very partial to cities in naturally beautiful environments, though, and Brussels has about the most boring landscape and natural setting ever. No hills bigger than like 30m and unusually for a large European city, it’s not on a major river or lake. It has a dinky canal and a miniature river.

Hollow Talk
Feb 2, 2014

Elysium posted:

Ok, one more, then time to make some decisions: Brussels.

I like Brussels, though many will disagree. It’s really lively and has lots of places to eat, plus I like that the city feels quite heterogenous.

“Les Filles” was really nice for dinner, I thought.

That said, you probably won’t need a week there. But between the city centre, Magritte museum, Atomium etc., I think it’s worth it for a long weekend.

greazeball
Feb 4, 2003



Electric Wrigglies posted:

I love Sintra, love that crazy multi-level expansive garden although a bit more upkeep would be great. Loved walking around Lisbon, the Russian doormen refused to let my bro and his mate into nightclubs with their Scottish kilts was a bit weird, Drug offers were common. Food is great - went to Timeout which was a big hall of a fair few different food vendors, had some of the best seafood there. It was pretty reasonable budget wise as well.

On the coast was quite nice although that bridge has to be the loudest road noise bridge I have ever experienced.

Lisbon is right up there with Yerevan for favorite city in the world and will go back at some stage.

Sell me on Yerevan, I don't think anyone's talked about it in this thread. It's European according to the laws of Eurovision.

Doctor Malaver
May 23, 2007

Ce qui s'est passé t'a rendu plus fort
Yerevan is one of the few places I traveled to where I have no desire to ever go back. The center was ugly in that specific Soviet and post-Soviet "Now We Make Grandiose National Art" way. The rest of the city (to say nothing of the countryside) was simply very poor. Very few people spoke English. Those that did had very conservative opinions about women's role in the society, Armenian nation, Muslim threat to the world etc. I got scammed a few times over exchange rates and prices. If you are single, I doubt you'll find the people attractive.

On the positive side, it was inexpensive, food was good, there are plenty of ancient churches, and I met a very nice artist on the marketplace. He tried hard, and lovingly, to present his country in the best way to a foreigner. Reminded me of Croatia in the 90's.

Doctor Malaver fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Jun 4, 2022

Electric Wrigglies
Feb 6, 2015

Doctor Malaver posted:

Yerevan is one of the few places I traveled to where I have no desire to ever go back. The center was ugly in that specific Soviet and post-Soviet "Now We Make Grandiose National Art" way. The rest of the city (to say nothing of the countryside) was simply very poor. Very few people spoke English. Those that did had very conservative opinions about women's role in the society, Armenian nation, Muslim threat to the world etc. I got scammed a few times over exchange rates and prices. If you are single, I doubt you'll find the people attractive.

On the positive side, it was inexpensive, food was good, there are plenty of ancient churches, and I met a very nice artist on the marketplace. He tried hard, and lovingly, to present his country in the best way to a foreigner. Reminded me of Croatia in the 90's.

I don't disagree with the observations of this post. For me I am not always attracted to classic beauty and Yerevan is definitely not that. I worked in Egypt and West Africa and spent a lot of time around relative poverty otherwise so I find interest in rough beauty and people making do. I also travelled with my family so was happy to take or leave people/company at any instance it was not fun. With more than one of you, it is also a lot easier time of it to muddle through language barriers.

So for me; with my experience, Yerevan is conservative but in line with expectations. Poor but the people are generally well educated beyond what I normally found compared to Cambodia, Senegal, Myanmar, Costa Rica, etc. I think it felt more the people only have enough to live a simple life and are happy with that rather than the soul crushing non-stop begging and scamming to survive as in other places. There was no bitter or mean envy either which is unfortunately often part of the experience of being around less well off people. The Russian mobster feel was apparent though, mostly with the Merc G63 SUVs driving around everywhere but also in who could sit where in some restaurants.

I (well my partner, mostly) has bought art from over the world and Yerevan is a highlight in that regard. The original work paintings in the park or the little scarf boutique in the main street selling their own lines.

Apart from going out of the city (Lake Sevan is nice. heading south to look at Mount Ararat, generally around for temples, hiking etc is all good) we walked everywhere and never set foot on a bus or in a taxi (which is its own de-stressor right there). The outdoor (in summer, the only times we have visited) cafe scene caters to kids well and generally felt a bit like the outdoor street cafe vibe in Sarajevo. Tarpaulin roof, couches, big screen TV or live music depending on which one you went to, on tap beers, superfood (eg, moranga with goji berry shake) and flash cafe food options, sunny days, bouncy castles, rides and chaperoned activities (arts and crafts, physical games etc) for the kids. After lunch, go down to that group of art sellers in the park and chat with them for a bit before walking to the "Now We Make Big And Best Lightshow" show in the central square. I enjoyed just chilling out, feeling safe and comfortable outside with the kids playing with strangers kids and being happy while not feeling like the pocket emptying out by the hour. Liberty park with outdoor static display tanks and jets at one end and fun rides and food/beer kiosks at the other was fun.

I will double on the food, they eat a lot of fresh, simple food that is inexpensive and very good value for the quality. The international food scene is not so well developed but the Korean and Indian (for eg) places were obviously immigrants giving it a good go and were very friendly and accommodating.

Like the former Yugoslavia countries, there is the haunting of war and divisions through society. Agreed it ain't a good place to be Turkish or Muslim or to try and argue their side. The Armenian genocide memorial is appropriate and was an important part of my visit. The experience for non-Caucasian straight dudes is probably in the middle. It's no Morocco but not Melbourne either. Some local guys were very keen to chat to my partner and show off they new how to say hello in her language if I was not around and I had one guy hit on me in a cafe but it is a conservative country that is very proud of being the first official Christian country in the world.

By way of comparison, my partner, family and my bro headed on up to Tbilisi after Yerevan and found Tbilisi a lot more beautiful, the food more complicated and less fresh, the people a lot more tourist savvy (both good and bad) and a lot more tourists around in general. She is keen that I visit Tbilisi with her but wants to go back to Yerevan again too.

Long story short, Yerevan felt like a place just opening up to tourism and the general population was not jaded to tourists but also still not fully exposed and on board with international norms regarding relationships or have all things well organised and slick. I have not been back since the war though so it might be a humiliated and depressing place now, doubly so as their only real ally Russia has now mired itself in an economy destroying adventure of its own.

Doctor Malaver
May 23, 2007

Ce qui s'est passé t'a rendu plus fort
That was insightful and interesting. :)

Electric Wrigglies posted:

I think it felt more the people only have enough to live a simple life and are happy with that rather than the soul crushing non-stop begging and scamming to survive as in other places. There was no bitter or mean envy either which is unfortunately often part of the experience of being around less well off people.

I agree. I appreciated being able to leisurely walk around markets without beggars or vendors pushing their wares. They seemed pretty disinterested in me, but in a neutral way. You wanna buy something, speak up. You don't wanna -- fine, I'll play checkers. The bitterness and envy you speak about I experienced in Peru. The feeling there was, if I can't make you spend any money then get out of my face, preferably to die in a ditch.

Electric Wrigglies posted:

I will double on the food, they eat a lot of fresh, simple food that is inexpensive and very good value for the quality.

Yes! I was taken to a restaurant in a faux pyramid, so overdone and tasteless it would've been rejected in Las Vegas, but the fresh food they brought as the entree was phenomenal. The most basic stuff, bell peppers, cucumbers... with hardly any condiments, but incredibly tasty.

Electric Wrigglies posted:

I have not been back since the war though so it might be a humiliated and depressing place now, doubly so as their only real ally Russia has now mired itself in an economy destroying adventure of its own.

For me it was depressing then already. Armenia borders four countries, two of which are their enemies - Turkey and Azerberijan - so most of the border is closed. That leaves Georgia and Iran, and they are not shining beacons that will open you to the world. The country is poor and depopulated. South America poor might mean a family of 8 in a hut, but it's lively and open to possibilities. If you return in 10 years, who knows who you'll meet. Armenia poor is one lone grandma and 8 empty dilapidated houses. In 10 years there'll be no grandma and the houses will be in even poorer condition. I don't trust their political leaders to steer the ship in a progressive direction, even less so after the recent war.

Sorry to end in a negative tone, but I remember Khor Virap, how beautiful and neglected it was. I could imagine two monks struggling to keep it standing with literal shoestrings and sticks, while Yerevan throws money at ridiculous Cascades.

Dead Pressed
Nov 11, 2009

Elysium posted:

Ok, one more, then time to make some decisions: Brussels.

Brussels is one of my least favorite European cities. It just felt bland and uninspired, not necessarily unique...to me...

However, my wife loved the mussels, the Atomium was pretty neat (never heard of it before my visit), Grand Place was astonishing, but Mannequin Piss was disappointing.

Ultimately, having seen those landmarks, I have no reason to go back... and out of 10 or so cities, Milan is the only other location to which I wouldn't return by choice.

webmeister
Jan 31, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 43 minutes!
Personal view: Brussels is okay, but there's an awful lot of places I'd visit in Europe (hell, even in Belgium) before heading to Brussels. It's not bad, but it's not all that interesting either. If you're keen on going to Belgium, Bruges is always a good choice though it's usually drowned in hordes of tourists, particularly during the summer months. Leuwen, Antwerp, and even Ypres are all quite nice and interesting in their own ways.

And 100% don't bother going out of your way to see the Mannekin Pis, it's literally just a sculpture of a kid pissing like you're seen a thousand times in every tacky gardenwares shop. Except this time it's surrounded by hordes of boomers with cameras and wannabe Instafluencers.

Ferdinand Bardamu
Apr 30, 2013
Ghent is also nice, especially if you're younger.

Danger - Octopus!
Apr 20, 2008


Nap Ghost
Following from belgium-chat, I'm going to Brussels in early July. I've been before pre-covid, and just wanted to check on a couple of things tho if anyone is around there/has been recently.

What are covid restrictions like in Belgium at the mo (as in, in reality rather than officially)? Since at the mo here in the UK there's basically nothing and some days I don't see anyone in masks at all since it's just reccomended/personal choice which means no one bothers in a lot of places

Also, when I last went to Brussels in 2019, I mostly spent cash in bars and cafes. Here in the UK though, a lot of places switched to contactless card payment over the last two years and was wondering if the same is true in Belgium? Don't want to get a bunch of Euros if everywhere is contactless now!

Saladman
Jan 12, 2010

Danger - Octopus! posted:

Following from belgium-chat, I'm going to Brussels in early July. I've been before pre-covid, and just wanted to check on a couple of things tho if anyone is around there/has been recently.

What are covid restrictions like in Belgium at the mo (as in, in reality rather than officially)? Since at the mo here in the UK there's basically nothing and some days I don't see anyone in masks at all since it's just reccomended/personal choice which means no one bothers in a lot of places

Also, when I last went to Brussels in 2019, I mostly spent cash in bars and cafes. Here in the UK though, a lot of places switched to contactless card payment over the last two years and was wondering if the same is true in Belgium? Don't want to get a bunch of Euros if everywhere is contactless now!

I've been there several times this year, including in Belgium today, although in Namur and not Brussels. Masks are no longer required anywhere except, probably, doctors offices and hospitals and maybe care homes. So, hopefully nowhere that you would normally go. I would guess around 1-2% of people wear masks in a normal tourist-related setting (e.g. museum, shops), with that number pulled out of my rear end but it's a very low but non-zero number of people. If you like wearing masks then I doubt anyone will yell at you for doing it.

Contactless is accepted basically everywhere, even increasingly in places like farmers markets that never accepted cards pre-COVID. Sometimes there is a minimum purchase amount like 5 or 10 euros. Also sometimes you can pay with a regular banking card (e.g. maestro, V-pay) but not with a credit card (e.g. master, visa). I'd guess that's pretty rare but no idea, my normal cards that I use in shops are V-Pay and Maestro. I'd suggest carrying 20-50 euros anyway just in case your card randomly doesn't work.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

I think in Belgium masks are also required in public transport, so if you're planning to use that to get around the city make sure to have a couple on hand.

Saladman
Jan 12, 2010

Carbon dioxide posted:

I think in Belgium masks are also required in public transport, so if you're planning to use that to get around the city make sure to have a couple on hand.

Not anymore, as of a couple weeks ago. Not sure if that applies to planes or international train routes between countries that still do, like Luxembourg - Brussels, but anyway France also no longer requires them.

Just at doctor related stuff now apparently : https://www.info-coronavirus.be/en/facemask/

Cheese Thief
Oct 30, 2020
Any cool festivals this summer? My plans thus far, with the help of this amazing thread, is a week in Rome, then a week in Marsala for a yoga retreat. Now my latest idea is the Untold EDM fest in Transylvania, which is conveniently timed in regard to my itinerary. I guess I could visit count Dracula’s castle.

Busy Bee
Jul 13, 2004
I went to Italy a couple of months ago and I was just notified from the car rental agency I used that I received two tickets - both for entering a zone that I should not have entered. I'm assuming it was meant for the people who lived there.

The rental car company already charged me a pretty hefty "processing" fee and told me that the two fines have not been paid and that I should expect a letter in the mail from the respective Italian city governments. However, it also said that if I do not receive a letter, that I should contact the city directly.

What should I do in this situation? I am worried about not receiving a letter and having the fine sent to collections.

1) Wait for the letter in the mail
2) When the rental car company sent me the processing fee invoice, they also attached the original fine with the details of what I did - there are payment instructions there meant for the rental company. Should I just pay the fine now?

Saladman
Jan 12, 2010

Busy Bee posted:

I went to Italy a couple of months ago and I was just notified from the car rental agency I used that I received two tickets - both for entering a zone that I should not have entered. I'm assuming it was meant for the people who lived there.

The rental car company already charged me a pretty hefty "processing" fee and told me that the two fines have not been paid and that I should expect a letter in the mail from the respective Italian city governments. However, it also said that if I do not receive a letter, that I should contact the city directly.

What should I do in this situation? I am worried about not receiving a letter and having the fine sent to collections.

1) Wait for the letter in the mail
2) When the rental car company sent me the processing fee invoice, they also attached the original fine with the details of what I did - there are payment instructions there meant for the rental company. Should I just pay the fine now?

Unfortunate. The ZTLs in Italy are super mean business since they are not so obvious, especially as you are driving around in Italian traffic. Driving in Italy is not only a challenge due to its chaotic way of driving, but also due to its massive prevalence of camera-enforced rules that are unclear to foreigners, not only the ZTLs but also e.g. some newer "Free Flow™" autoroutes require you to pay for them, but they're exclusively camera-controlled and you never pass a barrier nor see any indication in any language besides a small panel written in Italian that you're on a paid autoroute that you have to go to a website and pay for your usage of, or enjoy a huge fine months down the line*.

If the rental company is giving you scans of the ticket they received, I would just directly pay those, assuming you were actually at the location and time of the indicated ticket. If you were not, then just contest the charge(s) with both the rental agency and your credit card company. I would not bother waiting for the letter in your own mailbox, if it even ever arrives.

Or I would cancel my credit card, move to Alaska, change my name and live off the land, forever keeping an eye on the horizon for the Italian carabinieri hunting me.


*https://apl.pedemontana.com/en_US/faq it is VERY easy to not notice that you are on a toll road, as there are only maybe one or two signs every few kilometers, only in Italian, mentioning you're on an online-only toll road (and you're on your own to figure out how to pay for it). There is no slowdown section where you go through an area that has obvious cameras or lights, it's just like a freeway onramp in Germany or wherever, but it has cameras that charge you, incredibly discretely. It's great once you know about it but it's an absolute nightmare for unfamiliar tourists.

OK maybe it's not that discrete but it's still only in Italian and you only see it once after every highway onramp, and IIRC you don't see it until you're already on the Free Flow zone: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.6783148,9.0337249,3a,75y,85.97h,99.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSoaOY50lidR6SnpK3asGYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Saladman fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Jun 8, 2022

greazeball
Feb 4, 2003



Lol at the idea of Carabinieri doing anything ever. Those guys make mall security guards look like Charles Bronson. I'm convinced they only exist to give govt jobs to thickos who would otherwise be mafia goons, there's at least 2 other kinds of police for a reason.

They can send letters though and rental car companies will happily charge processing fees so it's probably best to just pay the fines.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Cheese Thief posted:

Any cool festivals this summer? My plans thus far, with the help of this amazing thread, is a week in Rome, then a week in Marsala for a yoga retreat. Now my latest idea is the Untold EDM fest in Transylvania, which is conveniently timed in regard to my itinerary. I guess I could visit count Dracula’s castle.
Masters of Rock in the Czech Republic :rock:


Busy Bee posted:

I went to Italy a couple of months ago and I was just notified from the car rental agency I used that I received two tickets - both for entering a zone that I should not have entered. I'm assuming it was meant for the people who lived there.

The rental car company already charged me a pretty hefty "processing" fee and told me that the two fines have not been paid and that I should expect a letter in the mail from the respective Italian city governments. However, it also said that if I do not receive a letter, that I should contact the city directly.

What should I do in this situation? I am worried about not receiving a letter and having the fine sent to collections.

1) Wait for the letter in the mail
2) When the rental car company sent me the processing fee invoice, they also attached the original fine with the details of what I did - there are payment instructions there meant for the rental company. Should I just pay the fine now?
Are you American? If you're not planning on visiting Italy soon, ignoring it might be an option. What are they going to do, send the carabinieri after you over a traffic ticket? Used to be possible even within Europe until recently. This is not legal advice

Busy Bee
Jul 13, 2004

Saladman posted:

Unfortunate. The ZTLs in Italy are super mean business since they are not so obvious, especially as you are driving around in Italian traffic. Driving in Italy is not only a challenge due to its chaotic way of driving, but also due to its massive prevalence of camera-enforced rules that are unclear to foreigners, not only the ZTLs but also e.g. some newer "Free Flow™" autoroutes require you to pay for them, but they're exclusively camera-controlled and you never pass a barrier nor see any indication in any language besides a small panel written in Italian that you're on a paid autoroute that you have to go to a website and pay for your usage of, or enjoy a huge fine months down the line*.

If the rental company is giving you scans of the ticket they received, I would just directly pay those, assuming you were actually at the location and time of the indicated ticket. If you were not, then just contest the charge(s) with both the rental agency and your credit card company. I would not bother waiting for the letter in your own mailbox, if it even ever arrives.

Or I would cancel my credit card, move to Alaska, change my name and live off the land, forever keeping an eye on the horizon for the Italian carabinieri hunting me.


*https://apl.pedemontana.com/en_US/faq it is VERY easy to not notice that you are on a toll road, as there are only maybe one or two signs every few kilometers, only in Italian, mentioning you're on an online-only toll road (and you're on your own to figure out how to pay for it). There is no slowdown section where you go through an area that has obvious cameras or lights, it's just like a freeway onramp in Germany or wherever, but it has cameras that charge you, incredibly discretely. It's great once you know about it but it's an absolute nightmare for unfamiliar tourists.

OK maybe it's not that discrete but it's still only in Italian and you only see it once after every highway onramp, and IIRC you don't see it until you're already on the Free Flow zone: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.6783148,9.0337249,3a,75y,85.97h,99.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSoaOY50lidR6SnpK3asGYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Yeah it's quite unfortunate!

Well I was thinking of paying directly with the information provided in the scan of the ticket but it's directly addressed to the rental car company so not sure how that would look if I pay for a ticket with information related to the car rental company when they more than likely updated it with my information. The car company said they have forwarded my information (name and address) to the authorities and that they will mail me a ticket to pay. I'm just worried that they won't send it or it will get lost in the mail and I'll have a large fine in collections.

Saladman
Jan 12, 2010

mobby_6kl posted:

Masters of Rock in the Czech Republic :rock:

Are you American? If you're not planning on visiting Italy soon, ignoring it might be an option. What are they going to do, send the carabinieri after you over a traffic ticket? Used to be possible even within Europe until recently. This is not legal advice

Can they really ignore it even in such a case? If it was their own personal car, then sure it could be ignored, but won't eventually the rental car company just pay the fine and charge Busy's credit card? I don't actually know how that works.

I have not paid many parking tickets while driving my own car in foreign countries and have never had that come back to me (and eventually with new license plates, my record gets cleared anyway), but I have always paid tickets if they actually wind up at my home or if they're on a rental car, assuming the tickets are actually for offenses that I did.

Busy Bee posted:

Yeah it's quite unfortunate!

Well I was thinking of paying directly with the information provided in the scan of the ticket but it's directly addressed to the rental car company so not sure how that would look if I pay for a ticket with information related to the car rental company when they more than likely updated it with my information. The car company said they have forwarded my information (name and address) to the authorities and that they will mail me a ticket to pay. I'm just worried that they won't send it or it will get lost in the mail and I'll have a large fine in collections.

That's fine, all you need is the police infraction # to pay the fine, it doesn't matter who it is addressed to, UNLESS it is a fine which incurs points on your license, which is not the case for a ZTL offense. Based on your worrying about it, I'd personally just pay it, even though you might have decent odds of getting off with just the administrative fee from the car company in case you never pay it and you're not Italian.

Entropist
Dec 1, 2007
I'm very stupid.

Saladman posted:

OK maybe it's not that discrete but it's still only in Italian and you only see it once after every highway onramp, and IIRC you don't see it until you're already on the Free Flow zone: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.6783148,9.0337249,3a,75y,85.97h,99.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSoaOY50lidR6SnpK3asGYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

In Italy, if it's between cities, two or more lanes each direction and not absolutely pockmarked with potholes, you can pretty much assume it must be a toll road :v:

Doctor Malaver
May 23, 2007

Ce qui s'est passé t'a rendu plus fort

Cheese Thief posted:

Any cool festivals this summer? My plans thus far, with the help of this amazing thread, is a week in Rome, then a week in Marsala for a yoga retreat. Now my latest idea is the Untold EDM fest in Transylvania, which is conveniently timed in regard to my itinerary. I guess I could visit count Dracula’s castle.

If you like EDM, EXIT festival in the Petrovaradin fortress in Novi Sad, Serbia. There's also Ultra Europe in Split, Croatia. Much less interesting venue, but OTOH you're in summer on the Adriatic coast.

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


What on earth is the story behind getting into Europe now? I'm trying to visit Amsterdam later this month along with possibly Spain, Germany, Switzerland and Austria. From what I understand there isn't a way for me to get QR code but I don't understand how I am supposed to show proof of vaccination when it says they won't accept vaccination certificate that I have?

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Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

What on earth is the story behind getting into Europe now? I'm trying to visit Amsterdam later this month along with possibly Spain, Germany, Switzerland and Austria. From what I understand there isn't a way for me to get QR code but I don't understand how I am supposed to show proof of vaccination when it says they won't accept vaccination certificate that I have?

The Netherlands has shut down all QR code checks since Covid is Over. Nobody in the Netherlands is allowed to ask to see your code anymore.

I have no idea what other countries are doing.

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