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Duzzy Funlop posted:Do you want to address the questions I actually asked you in my post or what's the deal? I did? quote:Because it's in contradiction with itself. Are you saying Germany has sufficiently and efficiently invested in its military but has just not chosen to commit to it's 2%GDP requirement to NATO? How has this undermined NATO more than the other ~16 countries that don't meet their %of GDP spending? Tiny Timbs posted:I didn't comment on the GDP thing specifically because I didn't see it as an issue worth talking although others had brought it up. Germany obviously contributes a lot to NATO that other nations don't, like permanently hosting the US military. quote:And the "willingly and intentionally sold their future to make themselves dependent on Russian 'fuel'" is just broken as all hell in itself altogether. There have been several posts in here on how the dependence on Russian gas and oil (each for extremely different reasons) came about, I think I may have even reposted an Tiny Timbs posted:And I'm still not seeing how the post you recommended I read (Kaal's) contradicts my opinion that Germany sold out its energy future to make itself dependent on Russian "fuel." They did that in a lot of ways over the years and the end result is a tie to Russia that has obviously become a huge problem. What specific policies contributed to this is besides the point (and Kaal argues that they were heavily influenced by Russia), the issue is the result. Were these not your questions? I think your comment about the GDP thing was just a misinterpretation of what I wrote. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jun 2, 2022 |
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Jun 2, 2022 19:48
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-post of Cyrano's from the Cold War/Airpower thread in TFR.[
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psydude posted:I pay German and American taxes, so it means I get to poo poo on two countries now. You absolutely do, but you don't get to incorporate the kink until you only pay German taxes.  quote:Despite what other people have said, I've encountered absolutely no anti-American sentiment here. Germans want all of the benefits of being a world leader without any of the responsibilities, but they are self aware enough to know that outsourcing their defense policy to a superpower has allowed them to invest heavily in areas other than defense. They have, until recently, pragmatically accepted that this is the cost of doing business. That's not really the story. It's absolutely a failed policy, but read the post from Cyrano i quoted why it failed. Duzzy Funlop fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jun 2, 2022 |
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Jun 2, 2022 19:49
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anywhoo https://twitter.com/StevenBeynon/status/1532429021308506112
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Jun 2, 2022 20:05
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That's some five star tech support right there.
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Jun 2, 2022 20:09
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/ajamubaraka/status/1532165603531886593 quote:Two days after the event, Baraka expressed his suspicions that the shootdown of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine was a "false flag" operation, saying: "Someone wrote about three weeks ago that we should expect a major false flag operation in eastern Ukraine that's going to be then blamed on the Russians. And that's exactly what has happened. WHY DOESN'T ANYONE TAKE THE GREEN PARTY SERIOUSLY IN AMERICA
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Jun 2, 2022 20:12
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https://twitter.com/orangewaldo/status/1532437636425535488 Best response so far.
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Jun 2, 2022 21:10
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Aw, they 
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Jun 2, 2022 21:38
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Uncle Enzo posted:Are there really a ton of legitimate historical parallels to the Russian invasion of Ukraine? A dictator invades a democracy, who then mounts an effective resistance. A country-on-country war I mean, not factions and such. Why go historical? Yemen is certainly not a democracy, but they are currently in a war (that has involved invasions) with the dictatorships of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, the UAE, Qatar, and Egypt, all of which the US provides military support to. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jun 2, 2022 |
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Jun 2, 2022 21:46
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What about King George ordering a military crackdown on the obstreperous colonies in the Americas?
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Jun 2, 2022 21:54
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Gaius Marius posted:Vichy France. Their point is stupid though. There's logical reasons for Germany and France to drag their feet on everything that don't involve you inventing secret cabals of crypto fascists in every seat of government I just wanted to work cryptofascists in more as a word but but yah this one. I know France was blitzed and the vichy gov is more complex than just puppet government, but there has been a huge upswing in far right politics and crimes being attributed to foreigners in both countries for the last few years. With how much the global far right has been cozied up to Russia, it's entirely plausible that there are people intentionally trying to sabotage aid for the benefit of the Russians.
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Jun 2, 2022 22:05
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Why go historical? Yemen is certainly not a democracy, but they are currently in a war (that has involved invasions) with the dictatorships of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, the UAE, Qatar, and Egypt, all of which the US provides military support to. Like it or not, the Saudis are aligned with the recognized government, and most of their fighting is against the Iran/North Korea/Hezbollah backed group that is also attacking civilians. The whole thing is a mess, and there aren't any actual "good guys" in this war, but framing the Houthis as "Yemen" is a take.
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Jun 2, 2022 22:41
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Godholio posted:Like it or not, the Saudis are aligned with the recognized government, and most of their fighting is against the Iran/North Korea/Hezbollah backed group that is also attacking civilians. The whole thing is a mess, and there aren't any actual "good guys" in this war, but framing the Houthis as "Yemen" is a take. The houthis have conquered the capital and the vast majority of the country. If the government wasn't being propped up by the Saudis it would've fallen by now. At that point the question of who's the legitimate government is debatable, and diplomatic recognition isn't the same as de facto rule.
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Jun 2, 2022 23:06
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Possession isn't 9/10s. You're not wrong, but it doesn't contradict the Houthis being a lovely combatant in a nasty multi-sided civil war. The government-in-exile has some level of legitimacy and the Houthis have territory.
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Jun 2, 2022 23:26
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Stultus Maximus posted:WHY DOESN'T ANYONE TAKE THE GREEN PARTY SERIOUSLY IN AMERICA It takes real dedication to stupidity to defend Boko Haram. And that's acknowledging that the Nigerian government is indeed a parade of fuckwits on its best day.
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Jun 2, 2022 23:34
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The point is, the US is perfectly comfortable supporting autocracies invading their neighbors. That has never been a defining line for foreign policy and it's disingenuous to frame our (government's) support of Ukraine with that as a motivation.
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Jun 2, 2022 23:35
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:The point is, the US is perfectly comfortable supporting autocracies invading their neighbors. That has never been a defining line for foreign policy and it's disingenuous to frame our (government's) support of Ukraine with that as a motivation. I dunno if it's disingenuous, given the capacity for our country to shift positions immediately if the opposition party was to come into power somehow. These decisions aren't made exclusively on the basis of what benefits American foreign policy positions. That they are occurring at all is somewhat miraculous, given the state of the USA.
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Jun 3, 2022 00:40
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:The point is, the US is perfectly comfortable supporting autocracies invading their neighbors. That has never been a defining line for foreign policy and it's disingenuous to frame our (government's) support of Ukraine with that as a motivation. You're overlooking the fact that supporting Ukraine has overwhelming popular support in the US. Irrespective of the government's stance or true motivations, the average American very much stands behind Ukraine. Meanwhile, the average American probably doesn't even know Yemen is a country. psydude fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Jun 3, 2022 |
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Jun 3, 2022 06:54
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CNN: US Cyber Command head says US military hackers have conducted "offensive cyber operations" against Russia in Ukraine https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/02/politics/us-hackers-ukraine-support/index.html
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Jun 3, 2022 12:40
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Oooooh, how spicy is that?
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Jun 3, 2022 12:57
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Russia’s cyberattacks on other countries in the early stages of the war and the US’s admission to cyberattacks on their forces in Ukraine make me think we’ve just had a test on how to treat escalation and all decided everybody gets a lot of room to play before it gets too spicy.
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Jun 3, 2022 13:03
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Tiny Timbs posted:Russia’s cyberattacks on other countries in the early stages of the war and the US’s admission to cyberattacks on their forces in Ukraine make me think we’ve just had a test on how to treat escalation and all decided everybody gets a lot of room to play before it gets too spicy. Don't forget Russia's repeated cyberattacks on the US's Financial, Utility, Logistics, Military, Governmental, and Political IT infrastructure for a decade and a half before the war in Ukraine kicked off. Excuse me, I meant non-governmental cybercrime syndicates that just happened to be situated within Russia. Seriously though, Russia has been waging war against the United States for almost the entirety of Putin's reign, it's just never gotten to the level where we wanted to actually do something definitive about it. What we're doing in Ukraine is payback with interest, as well as helping prevent a free people from becoming subjugated. The second part is more important, but the first part feels pretty good, too.
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Jun 3, 2022 13:23
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The article suggests that a lot of these attacks are pretty low-impact, too, though it's funny to imagine we're setting off every Russian's ringtone at full blast like you can do in Rainbow Six: Siege.
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Jun 3, 2022 13:36
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setting off Amber Alerts in Russia telling them to be on the lookout for a 5'3" baby snatching goblin
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Jun 3, 2022 13:41
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Василий, что ето "Амбер Алертъ"
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Jun 3, 2022 13:56
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Vasily you rat! You were giving me the spicy ringtone!
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Jun 3, 2022 13:59
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A.o.D. posted:Don't forget Russia's repeated cyberattacks on the US's Financial, Utility, Logistics, Military, Governmental, and Political IT infrastructure for a decade and a half before the war in Ukraine kicked off. One of the first cyber espionage operations was an East German who sold to the KGB. Wasabi the J fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Jun 3, 2022 |
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Jun 3, 2022 14:17
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I can imagine a scenario where the control systems in Russia's oil export terminals and pipeline substations suddenly stop working right around the time the European sanctions are fully phased in around December.
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Jun 3, 2022 15:18
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psydude posted:I can imagine a scenario where the control systems in Russia's oil export terminals and pipeline substations suddenly stop working right around the time the European sanctions are fully phased in around December. Lmao
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Jun 3, 2022 15:25
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psydude posted:I can imagine a scenario where the control systems in Russia's oil export terminals and pipeline substations suddenly stop working right around the time the European sanctions are fully phased in around December. I'm pretty sure it will be more widespread than that, but we won't hear about it for a good while 
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Jun 3, 2022 15:29
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Comedy option would be siphoning oil payments and sending them to Ukraine.
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Jun 3, 2022 15:40
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psydude posted:I can imagine a scenario where the control systems in Russia's oil export terminals and pipeline substations suddenly stop working right around the time the European sanctions are fully phased in around December. I hope it's sooner, if Biden gets tired of Scholz and Orban loving around.
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Jun 3, 2022 16:32
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Ah yeah let's crater the German economy that oughta put them more firmly on our side lol
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Jun 3, 2022 16:41
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aphid_licker posted:Ah yeah let's crater the German economy that oughta put them more firmly on our side lol They seem to be good at doing that themselves.
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Jun 3, 2022 16:45
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aphid_licker posted:Ah yeah let's crater the German economy that oughta put them more firmly on our side lol Isn't that what Germany did to Greece, Portugal and Spain for the bad choices they have made in the past?
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Jun 3, 2022 16:46
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Germany: gently caress around and find out round 2!
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Jun 3, 2022 16:47
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Somaen posted:Isn't that what Germany did to Greece, Portugal and Spain for the bad choices they have made in the past? I think what ails the Germans is fiscal irresponsibility. I prescribe two years of austerity.
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Jun 3, 2022 16:49
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aphid_licker posted:Ah yeah let's crater the German economy that oughta put them more firmly on our side lol Germany currently has enough gas storage to last six months, and about half of its gas imports don't come from Russia. Economists estimate that the GDP impact of halting fossil fuel imports would be around two percent, and significant government intervention could reduce that to only half a percent. There's good solutions available for residential heating and energy, industrial combined heat and power, and commercial applications (one of the biggest complainers is a German company that converts gas into fertilizer and pesticide, and doesn't want to increase their costs by using synthetic ammonia). The only real economic hazard comes from the government waiting until the last possible moment until they are forced into action - which of course is exactly what Scholz is doing. https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/05/31/olaf-scholzs-dithering-is-damaging-germanys-international-image https://www.politico.eu/article/olaf-scholz-kaiser-complex-ukraine-lurch/ Kaal fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jun 3, 2022 |
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Jun 3, 2022 17:11
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Kaal posted:Germany currently has enough gas storage to last six months, and about half of its gas imports don't come from Russia. Economists estimate that the GDP impact of halting fossil fuel imports would be around two percent, and significant government intervention could reduce that to only half a percent. There's good solutions available for residential heating and energy, industrial combined heat and power, and commercial applications (one of the biggest complainers is a German company that converts gas into fertilizer and pesticide, and doesn't want to increase their costs by using synthetic ammonia). The only real economic hazard comes from the government waiting until the last possible moment until they are forced into action - which of course is exactly what Scholz is doing. Other economists said that that estimate is bs and I seriously don't think we confidently know what happens when you cut out half of industrial process heat. It'd be p sketchy. And increasing cost is, well, cost. Somaen posted:Isn't that what Germany did to Greece, Portugal and Spain for the bad choices they have made in the past? Yeah and looking at Greek public opinion on Germany and the EU exactly what you'd expect happened as a result
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Jun 3, 2022 17:24
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aphid_licker posted:Yeah and looking at Greek public opinion on Germany and the EU exactly what you'd expect happened as a result Yes but the crime of greeks was having high pensions that Germany destroyed them for. Now we can't have germans paying more for gas or what, they'll start paying money to a fascist dictatorship that's bombing and invading a country and threatening other european countries? Sounds like germans need to be put in their place for their bad choices in life and not listening to people telling you that you need LNG terminals and that Russia uses energy as a weapon
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Jun 3, 2022 17:32
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Somaen posted:Yes but the crime of greeks was having high pensions that Germany destroyed them for. Now we can't have germans paying more for gas or what, they'll start paying money to a fascist dictatorship that's bombing and invading a country and threatening other european countries? Sounds like germans need to be put in their place for their bad choices in life and not listening to people telling you that you need LNG terminals and that Russia uses energy as a weapon Putting people into their place tends to make them mad at you and the greeks paid for the crime of getting into a situation where they became dependent on other people's opinions on their national spending
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Jun 3, 2022 17:43
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