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some plague rats posted:I said it was founded and funded by the CIA, which is true. If you want to argue that it's technically incorrect because when Clinton resurrected it to do the same exact job its funding was handed over to the state department then that's true, but given their identical missions and outlooks on the world it's such an asinine distinction I assumed no one would be pedantic enough to make something of it. You know what isnt an assanine distinction? The difference between twiiter and weibo. Heres a cia produced deep fake video for those interested. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/china/video-2651137/Video-Beijing-says-no-limit-China-Russia-cooperation.html (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Despera fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Jun 3, 2022 |
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Jun 3, 2022 22:51
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Discendo Vox posted:You representing that the source should be disregarded because of something untrue about its current status doesn't validate your criticism. Knowing things isn't pedantry. Do you think the org's funding being switched from the CIA to the state department has made any difference to their stated goals and if so why?
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Jun 3, 2022 22:58
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Discendo Vox posted:You representing that the source should be disregarded because of something untrue about its current status doesn't validate your criticism. Knowing things isn't pedantry. Oh ok thanks for clearing that up, it's actually overseen by another wing of the US government and I'm sure they have complete editorial independence. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 3, 2022 23:05
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Terminal autist posted:Oh ok thanks for clearing that up, it's actually overseen by another wing of the US government and I'm sure they have complete editorial independence. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) cat botherer fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jun 3, 2022 |
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Jun 3, 2022 23:18
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Why shouldn't China support Russia anyway? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 3, 2022 23:35
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Regarde Aduck posted:Why shouldn't China support Russia anyway? For one thing, Russia currently occupies a lot of former Chinese land, particularly in the Amur water basin. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't always hold when "the enemy of my enemy is also my enemy" basically. China has no ideological or geopolitical interest in being aligned with Russia when they're so obviously needing to be prop'd up, and China doesn't need another North Korea draining its resources. Russia doesn't offer China very much except for resources and technology and China is rapidly catching up on the later and by merely waiting out the current crisis can much more easily acquire the former at a lower cost. Obviously Russia likes to engage in border conflicts with its neighbours and is generally unpredictable, not a stable partner that China would prefer. The United States is honestly a better strategic partner to China than Russia all things considered.
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Jun 3, 2022 23:40
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Why is radio free asia the issue when it was just coverage of a chinese news conference? Covered by almost every major news media outlet? A conference that the chinese foreign ministery didnt have to do?
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Jun 3, 2022 23:41
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Despera posted:Why is radio free asia the issue when it was just coverage of a chinese news conference? Covered by almost every major news media outlet? A conference that the chinese foreign ministery didnt have to do? If this is true then why didn't you choose to link a reputable, unbiased source talking about sino-russian relations? I mean if you want to make a point about how the Chinese and Russians are relating than why do it using a source whose specific job is to make up poo poo about China?
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Jun 4, 2022 00:38
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some plague rats posted:If this is true then why didn't you choose to link a reputable, unbiased source talking about sino-russian relations? Because it's a perfectly serviceable source and story and you've just been wrong about everything about both.
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Jun 4, 2022 00:45
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holy poo poo everyone in this topic shut the gently caress up
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Jun 4, 2022 01:16
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I'm personally shocked that the OP of the media literacy thread is carrying water for a propaganda outlet. I honestly expect better from D&D, but I suppose nobody is infallible. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 4, 2022 02:40
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I sometimes browse a Chinese news aggregator when I’m procrastinating at work and it’s absolutely full of pro-Russia articles about Ukraine. Article after article about how Europe and will turn on Biden any day, how US special forces and US generals have been captured or killed in Ukraine, or about how the US is planning to attack Russia. You’d think the US invaded Ukraine if it was your only source of news. TV news and more reputable news papers aren’t like that, but social media and popular tabloids are extremely pro-Russia. It’s worth noting that at the start of the war, social media here was quite split in terms of views about the war, but pro Ukraine accounts and views have mostly disappeared. One of the most prominent, maintained by a Chinese guy living in Ukraine and posting about life during the war, was banned after saying China should not support Russia. I don’t think it takes a stretch to reach the conclusion that public opinion is being managed toward support for Russia. The bigger question is why.
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Jun 4, 2022 02:40
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Neurolimal posted:I'm personally shocked that the OP of the media literacy thread is carrying water for a propaganda outlet. I honestly expect better from D&D, but I suppose nobody is infallible. no, they were not: Discendo Vox posted:Radio Free Asia's run through the USAGM, like the rest of the Radio Frees, and is under the State Department, fully separate from the CIA. There's plenty to attack about it, but you're wrong on the basic facts. and you were asked to drop this.
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Jun 4, 2022 02:49
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Fritz the Horse posted:no, they were not: Fritz, he then went on to call it Discendo Vox posted:a perfectly serviceable source Do you think that's not in conflict? Is it fair game to respond to this after being told to drop it or are only mods allowed to continue a derail to have the last word btw
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Jun 4, 2022 02:57
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some plague rats posted:Fritz, he then went on to call it "Serviceable" is not a ringing endorsement, it means something is functional or adequate. That is compatible with "there is plenty to attack." This whole exchange started with Despera doing a quick google search and just grabbing one of the top hits. This is something they've done before, they caught a probe for it, and they're on a ramp for bad posting itt. Then you and Discendo Vox had exchanges about RFA as a source, and three posters jumped in to take potshots at DV and complain about moderation. The whole thing didn't really contribute anything to the thread, which is why GoutPatrol asked people to drop it. If folks want to continue to discuss Chinese-Russian relations, by all means. edit: and separate from DV's stance on RFA as a source, Neurolimal was gonna catch a probe for dropping in here to post nothing but a sarcastic swipe at another poster. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Jun 4, 2022 |
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Jun 4, 2022 03:09
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Fritz the Horse posted:The whole thing didn't really contribute anything to the thread, which is why GoutPatrol asked people to drop it. I strongly disagree, at least that the topic itself doesn't contribute anything to the thread. Source criticism is probably one of the most important topics, and biggest source of disagreement, about China right now. I don't think it's too controversial to say that, right now, there is no source for news about China from either direction that is anything even remotely close to neutral or fair. If I posted some bullshit from China Daily that was trying to promote a pro-China narrative and someone called out some way China Daily is dishonest in how they do China stories I don't think any mods would have a problem with it. If they did have a problem with that that would be worse, because that is what China Daily does. But the same is true for Western media that promotes an anti-China narrative. So if the mods decide one is fine for discussion, and another people need to "drop" then the mods are deciding to amplify one specific narrative over the other, that one is inherently truthful enough for discussion and the other isn't because of who knows what reason (or I guess, because western media is "serviceable"), and that's kinda bullshit. I'm a huge "gently caress the party" guy but, still, gently caress that. Despera posted:Why is radio free asia the issue when it was just coverage of a chinese news conference? Covered by almost every major news media outlet? A conference that the chinese foreign ministery didnt have to do? One thing I think about when comparing sources for the same story is the way they tell the story, the specific language. You can approach the truth in different ways that imply different things depending on your bias. Like I can tell you an honest story in a way that makes it come off negatively, and someone could tell the same story just as honestly that makes it come off positively. Even in subtle ways, this shows up in all media. The whole "regime" vs "administration" thing I guess, as a general example. I honestly dont believe in neutral media, I really don't think it exists even if you tried your hardest. So even with very "neutral" things like reporting on a news conference I don't think it's ever really "neutral." But that's just my take on this kind of thing. BrainDance fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jun 4, 2022 |
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Jun 4, 2022 03:56
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I sometimes browse a Chinese news aggregator when I’m procrastinating at work and it’s absolutely full of pro-Russia articles about Ukraine. Article after article about how Europe and will turn on Biden any day, how US special forces and US generals have been captured or killed in Ukraine, or about how the US is planning to attack Russia. You’d think the US invaded Ukraine if it was your only source of news. TV news and more reputable news papers aren’t like that, but social media and popular tabloids are extremely pro-Russia. There was this at the start of the war  quote:即刻起，乌克兰相关发微博。 Bolded: do not distribute anti-Russian or pro-Western material
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Jun 4, 2022 04:03
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ronya posted:There was this at the start of the war What's the source on this? I can't find anything about this leak apart from this one tweet of a screenshot posted by an anonymous, unverified account and it would be nice to have something more elaborated, but I can't actually read the leaked document so I'm probably searching the wrong things
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Jun 4, 2022 04:12
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Coverage at the time: https://chinadigitaltimes.net/chinese/677306.html https://chinadigitaltimes.net/chinese/677732.html ronya fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Jun 4, 2022 |
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Jun 4, 2022 05:16
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ronya posted:Coverage at the time: Cool, thanks for that, I'll have a read of em. e: both those links are completely unreadable on mobile so I'll have to check it out when I get home
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Jun 4, 2022 05:52
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It does fit what we've seen, i.e., that the range of acceptable tones is from neutral to pro-Russian/anti-Western, but responses to the latter are suppressed on Weibo, as is anti-Russian/pro-Western coverage. The result is that the nationalist narrative construction goes about untrammelled. Same handling of monkeypox coverage (in case anyone wonders if Beijing took any public health lessons from covering Western vaccination deaths hysterically back in early 2021). A few years down the road the Chinese recall of the Ukraine war is going to confabulate it with Yugoslavia and think that the armies of NATO marched into Kyiv to incite an ethnic cleansing of Russians; it squares the vague popular impression of Russia as a militarily powerful country at the peer level of the US (rather than, say, France) that could not possibly have been stymied by some small European country (rather than, say, a country the size of France). ronya fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Jun 4, 2022 |
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Jun 4, 2022 06:31
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I think something we can all agree is on that a source that is NOT serviceable is that lovely fuckin Great Translation Movement account that Despera keeps posting in this thread, because even a cursory look at their timeline reveals that they basically just take screenshots of large amounts of chinese text, translate one sentence, and throw on as many hashtags as possible to make it trend about whatever people are mad at China about today. You'd think a "translation movement" would be dedicated to....well translation, but why translate entire sources when you can extract soundbytes, I guess.
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Jun 4, 2022 08:13
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Seriously drawing an equivalence between Chinese state media and western media is a bit on the nose, even for this forum’s many apologists for authoritarianism, when it happens today of all days. A day on which, of course, nothing of any interest happened.
Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Jun 4, 2022 |
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Jun 4, 2022 12:52
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Ogmius815 posted:Seriously drawing an equivalence between Chinese state media and western media is a bit on the nose, even for this forum’s many apologists for authoritarianism, when it happens today of all days. A day on which, of course, nothing of any interest happened. They’re not equivalent. Chinese propaganda is hamfisted and easy discern as propaganda. Western propaganda is sophisticated and effective, providing the illusion of debate and objectivity while actually providing a very limited, highly slanted spectrum of views.
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Jun 4, 2022 13:31
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Red and Black posted:They’re not equivalent. Chinese propaganda is hamfisted and easy discern as propaganda. Western propaganda is sophisticated and effective, providing the illusion of debate and objectivity while actually providing a very limited, highly slanted spectrum of views. Yes, we've all read Manufacturing Consent. Woodward and Bernstein and their like still exist and aren't sent to reeducation camps in Idaho.
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Jun 4, 2022 14:53
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Rust Martialis posted:Yes, we've all read Manufacturing Consent. Woodward and Bernstein and their like still exist and aren't sent to reeducation camps in Idaho. sadly that was another time. these days, you whistle-blow on government wrongdoing and we'll throw you into a nice re-education hole in Loretto, Pennsylvania, on the legal grounds that's basically the same as spying during world war two. still one of my favorite pieces of war on terror trivia, that: the list of people prosecuted for their part in our torture programs, in its entirety, is "the man who let us know they existed." can't even blame Republicans for it, that was an Obama DOJ brainwave.
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Jun 4, 2022 15:05
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Uh, no? Go look at recent Pullitzers for current examples of investigative journalism, or the Panama Papers, or the investigation into January 6th, Trump attempts to overturn the election, etc. Anyone get tossed in jail for *reporting* on Snowden? Or Chelsea Manning? There's tons to complain about political and corporate control over US/Western media generally, but it's nothing compared to Chinese media. The Grauniad, for example, would be shut down. Can you get a copy of the New York Times in Beijing?
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Jun 4, 2022 15:18
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Rust Martialis posted:Uh, no? Go look at recent Pullitzers for current examples of investigative journalism, or the Panama Papers, or the investigation into January 6th, Trump attempts to overturn the election, etc. The Guardian is an awful example to bring up. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/31/footage-released-guardian-editors-snowden-hard-drives-gchq quote:
It is so bad an example that if you edit your post to remove references to it I will happily edit my post to help you save face. What do you think would have happened to the journalists if they told the police to gently caress off? As for RFA, you don’t need to go farther than their cartoons to understand the caliber of journalism they’re putting out.  quote:
 quote:U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Michelle Bachelet began a visit to China with a photo op with Beijing's top diplomat that appeared to confirm the human rights community's fears that the Chinese government will use the May 23-28 tour for propaganda and keep Bachelet from seeing the reality on the ground in troubled Xinjiang and other areas. With cameras clicking, Foreign Minister Wang Yi gave Bachelet “Excerpts from Xi Jinping on Respecting and Protecting Human Rights," a book by China's paramount leader, who has tightened Communist Party control and restricted speech and other freedoms to a degree not seen in decades.  quote:Chinese leader Xi Jinping's decision to stick with a zero-covid policy that worked in 2020 but has not stopped the spread of the Omicron variant has brought lockdowns in Shanghai, Shenzhen and Beijing among 45 mainland cities, affecting nearly 400 million people. The economic damage to China is now spilling over to U.S., Europe, Japan and others in a global economy struggling with shortages, inflation and the Ukraine conflict. I’m embarrassed to be paying for this garbage with my tax dollars. Please let me know if the funding doesn’t really work that way:  quote:The sinking of the Moskva, Russia’s Black Sea fleet flagship, was the biggest wartime loss of a naval ship in 40 years. Despite the major embarrassment for Vladimir Putin and the vaunted Russian military, China's Xi Jinping has maintained his embrace of his fellow strongman. Beyond the reputational damage to China from his alliance with Putin, analysts question whether Xi is getting accurate information about Russian battlefield failures, which may offer lessons for China's military. mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Jun 4, 2022 |
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Jun 4, 2022 15:28
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Rust Martialis posted:Yes, we've all read Manufacturing Consent. Woodward and Bernstein and their like still exist and aren't sent to reeducation camps in Idaho. In any event the Western media still functions as a sophisticated propaganda outlet, regardless of whether there are bad things happening over there that don’t here or vice versa
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Jun 4, 2022 15:38
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Red and Black posted:They’re not equivalent. Chinese propaganda is hamfisted and easy discern as propaganda. Western propaganda is sophisticated and effective, providing the illusion of debate and objectivity while actually providing a very limited, highly slanted spectrum of views. Lot of words to make it sounds sinister that Western propaganda tends to rely on telling actual true events instead of just wholesale making poo poo up. Oh god! they're framing things in a light positive to causes they're sympathetic to and de-emphasizing stories that paint them in a bad light! The horror! mawarannahr posted:The Guardian is an awful example to bring up. Reading this post is like listening to some moron explain Uranium One to me and then sit back like just blew my mind with the truth. I haven't been marinating in your particular echo chamber long enough to understand why I'm supposed to be outraged by any of this or why you think it's a counter to the post you're replying to. British intelligence made them destroy the hard copies of the classified information they had already reported out without consequence? So what? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 4, 2022 15:49
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mawarannahr posted:The Guardian is an awful example to bring up. If I may be allowed to quote your own source: "It was purely a symbolic act," Johnson said. "We knew that. GCHQ knew that. And the government knew that," He added: "It was the most surreal event I have witnessed in British journalism." Thanks for proving my point - nobody went to jail for publishing Snowden in the Guardian. The whole 'destroy the disks or else' was a pointless symbolic act. I think you should keep your post just as it is, please. 
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Jun 4, 2022 15:50
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Jarmak posted:Lot of words to make it sounds sinister that Western propaganda tends to rely on telling actual true events instead of just wholesale making poo poo up. Oh god! they're framing things in a light positive to causes they're sympathetic to and de-emphasizing stories that paint them in a bad light! The horror! The Western media can absolutely publish things that are outright false, and does so fairly often. Especially when they’re simply passing out information from government officials and in effect acting as government mouth pieces (much like the Chinese media is accused of being) This is why you have people in the west believing Kim Jong Un is dead, or that he has executed some official who reappears in public two days later. Or why people believe theres some government assigned social credit number that exists in China that’s just like that black mirror episode. Or why it’s just generally believed that Iran has a nuclear weapons program (they don’t). Or the infamous Iraqi WMDs that provided the impetus for the Iraq war. On and on and on. There have been entire books written on this
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Jun 4, 2022 16:01
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Jarmak posted:Lot of words to make it sounds sinister that Western propaganda tends to rely on telling actual true events instead of just wholesale making poo poo up. the word 'tends' in this sentence is being asked to carry the weight of the entire middle east for the last twenty years, and you can see the concrete cracking around it from the strain. years of your life are gone, people you knew are dead, and God only knows how many innocent iraqis are no more, all in the name of those weapons of mass destruction saddam definitely had. that event, and the propaganda blitz surrounding it to this day, does not constitute a one-off 'oopsie'
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Jun 4, 2022 16:03
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Rust Martialis posted:If I may be allowed to quote your own source: I want to ask again, what would have happened if they told the police to go away? Seems a waste of time and money for all of them, which is a material issue, no?
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Jun 4, 2022 16:13
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mawarannahr posted:I want to ask again, what would have happened if they told the police to go away? I don't know, and neither do you. quote:Seems a waste of time and money for all of them, which is a material issue, no? Well between the Guardian and other non-UK papers they got the story out, which I think is a huge thing even if the Guardian had to drop out after the initial releases. Good for everyone. The Guardian sold a lot of papers, which is good for them. Rusbridger seems to have come out of it pretty okay, according to Wikipedia. quote:From 2015 to 2021, Rusbridger was principal of Lady Margaret Hall in the University of Oxford. He was appointed chair of the university's Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism in 2016. In 2020, Rusbridger was announced as one of the first members of the Oversight Board created by Facebook. His appointment as incoming editor of Prospect magazine was announced in July 2021. Lastly, Glenn Greenwald certainly picked up some dedicated fans on SA to this day, gotta score that a win for GG. Really did great off Snowden. Here's a hypothetical for you, since this is the China thread - you think Rusbridger and Greenwald would ended up as well off if they'd been Chinese journalists?
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Jun 4, 2022 18:47
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Rust Martialis posted:I don't know, and neither do you. OK. I see your point about it being rhetorical. I’ll see if I can find some more specific information about what likely would have happened. The reason I brought it up is because it is, IMO, a very clear threat to the journalists personally and the organization as well, the kind of thing I’d expect from people like Erdogan’s thugs, and I don’t buy that it was symbolic at all — literally material, but if you believe the journalists’ words under obvious duress then I must not be discussing this correctly. I agree this doesn’t have much to do with China, I responded to it cause I believe it’s a stunningly bad example to use. (I don’t know what would happen to Glenn as a Chinese journalist and wouldn’t know where to start.) mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jun 4, 2022 |
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Jun 4, 2022 18:56
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Rust Martialis posted:Can you get a copy of the New York Times in Beijing? Yeah, the poor, propaganda addled Chinese probably never even learned about Saddam's WMDs (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 4, 2022 21:25
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some plague rats posted:Yeah, the poor, propaganda addled Chinese probably never even learned about Saddam's WMDs You really want to claim Chinese media is more reliable than the NYT overall? That's the hill you want to die on? Or what was the point of your comment, if not? After all, there's been quite a bit of reporting on the subject of Iraqi WMDs, from exposures of Curveball onward, Cheney strong-arming the CIA, the garbage mobile lab photos Powell waved around, etc. All from the horrible corrupt Western media. Yeah, the media in the west can get it wrong, but you skip over the rest of the story, that journalists kept digging. Show me the same process where Chinese media are holding their own government to account, please? Where are the headlines exposing the ongoing Uighur genocide? Criticizing China policy on Ukraine? Ed: The post mortem on the WMD stories basically cost Judith Miller her career. quote:The New York Times determined that several stories she wrote about Iraq were inaccurate, and she was forced to resign from the paper in 2005. According to commentator Ken Silverstein, Miller's Iraq reporting "effectively ended her career as a respectable journalist". Cold comfort to be sure, but do Chinese reporters ever suffer from toeing the government line comparably? Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jun 4, 2022 |
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Jun 4, 2022 22:07
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Rust Martialis posted:You really want to claim Chinese media is more reliable than the NYT overall? Nah, that wasn't my point at all, and it's hard to imagine how anyone would think it was, unless they were just trying to find a version of it that was easier to argue against. Point was if you're going to try and make Jarmak's argument that western media relies on true events, or yours that Chinese media is leaps and bounds more evil than it's western counterpart, please bear in mind that within our lifetimes the specific outlet you're holding up as too truthful to be available in China lied us into a war that has killed a million people and counting and the consequences for doing so are that one of the people responsible is having trouble getting bylines 20 years later. Acting like the Chinese media is somehow worse or more propagandistic than western is just asinine, frankly.
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Jun 4, 2022 22:25
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Rust Martialis posted:
She immediately started writing for the wall street journal. She's currently a member of the council on foreign relations. That "effectively" and "respectable" is doing an incredible amount of heavy lifting
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Jun 4, 2022 22:28
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