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Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008



Sit on my Jace posted:

I'm literally talking about my own bisexual experience

:hmmyes:

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Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!


Clever Betty


Chill la Chill
Jul 2, 2007

Don't lose your gay


I am reminded of that magic card that had a goblin in awe of a lad’s magnificent pecs

fadam
Apr 23, 2008

TW: Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/v4q1rg/taking_20_on_perplexing_puzzlebox/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Is this true, lol?

GonSmithe
Apr 25, 2010

Perhaps it's in the nature of television. Just waves in space.

lmao yes it's absolutely true as written. You can undo any mana abilities and the D20 roll is part of the mana ability.

I've been thinking about it for a little bit and I don't actually think there is a correct way to word this card to make it work exactly the same but not be "abusable" (still omega slow even if you cheese it). Even if you change it to "T:mana" "Whenever you tap this for mana, roll a d20" it still does the same exact thing because you can undo it.

fadam
Apr 23, 2008

GonSmithe posted:

lmao yes it's absolutely true as written. You can undo any mana abilities and the D20 roll is part of the mana ability.

I've been thinking about it for a little bit and I don't actually think there is a correct way to word this card to make it work exactly the same but not be "abusable" (still omega slow even if you cheese it). Even if you change it to "T:mana" "Whenever you tap this for mana, roll a d20" it still does the same exact thing because you can undo it.

I guess they could go the DRS route and just make it not a mana ability by making it target for some reason, idk lol

Big Ol Marsh Pussy
Jan 7, 2007

"activate this ability only any time you could activate an instant" i think is the usual way

LeafHouse
Apr 22, 2008

That's what you get for not hailing to the chimp!



Some alleged leaks from 2XM2

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!

LeafHouse posted:

Some alleged leaks from 2XM2



Some very pretty jank. That Eternal Witness is A+, though.

HootTheOwl
May 13, 2012

Hootin and shootin
It's slow play because rolling a 20 isn't detemrinistic.
It's like the old four horseman combo. Yes you have an infinite loop and can shortcut it, but because you're waiting for your graveyard to align in a specific way its slow play.

Pablo Nergigante
Apr 16, 2002

AlternateNu posted:

Some very pretty jank. That Eternal Witness is A+, though.

Amulet Titan plays a bunch of those dumb guild lands

kalel
Jun 19, 2012

Big Ol Marsh Pussy posted:

"activate this ability only any time you could activate an instant" i think is the usual way



I just assumed it would have to be this. Rolling a d20 is non-deterministic so activating the ability would have to be irreversible, which would necessitate "activate only as an instant" for the ability to play nice with the rules of the game engine

Puts those judges in a hosed position though. Either you rule in favor of how it ought to behave intuitively, which means adding words to the card that aren't printed, or you say it's a reversible mana ability and wash your hands of blame. It's a real trolley problem

Pocky In My Pocket
Jan 27, 2005

Giant robots shouldn't fight!






I've seen people claiming its permissible, but if you try it its slow play

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!


Clever Betty
Unfortunately performing such a maneuver has the side effect of a big burly guy coming out of nowhere and shoving you inside a locker

kalel
Jun 19, 2012

Captain Invictus posted:

Unfortunately performing such a maneuver has the side effect of a big burly guy coming out of nowhere and shoving you inside a locker

would like to "slow play" with that guy iykwim

fadam
Apr 23, 2008

Pablo Nergigante posted:

Amulet Titan plays a bunch of those dumb guild lands

Licking my lips at that Garrison.

mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012
That eternal witness looks like poo poo lol

Maybe itll look better without being compressed to hell

Darkoni
Dec 28, 2010

You do not look terribly noble and yet I feel troubled, attracted, bewitched.


According to a post, no it doesn't.

reddit posted:

No, it doesn't work. Mana abilities can be reversed only if they were activated as a part of an illegal action. And you are not allowed to intentionally perform an illegal action, only accidentally (which may occur as a part of a nondeterminate mana ability, but not in this case since the mana generated is always the same) so you cannot loop this.

Relevant rules:

723.1: If a player takes an illegal action or starts to take an action but can't legally complete it, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. Each player may also reverse any legal mana abilities that player activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from those abilities or from any triggered mana abilities they caused to trigger was spent on another mana ability that wasn't reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, caused a library to be shuffled, or caused cards from a library to be revealed.

723.2: When reversing illegal spells and abilities, the player who had priority retains it and may take another action or pass. The player may redo the reversed action in a legal way or take any other action allowed by the rules.


It doesn't look like you can just undo mana rocks for no reason, even if you don't spend the mana.

Fuzzy Mammal
Aug 15, 2001

Lipstick Apathy

No it doesn't work. You can only undo them if they were activated to cast a spell that turned out to be illegal or similar. Maybe on arena or modo you could do it over and over with ctrlz but I'd say once it makes a permanent effect like the die outcome you're stuck with it. It definitely doesn't work in paper.

Qwertycoatl
Dec 31, 2008

There's nothing in the main rules about freely untapping your lands before you spend the mana. The tournament rules allow takebacks at the judge's discretion provided that you gained no information (including no fishing for opponent's reactions), which I think has been semi-formalised as you're allowed to undo tapping your lands if you haven't done anything since you tapped them. But this case clearly isn't covered there since rolling the d20 gives you information.

kalel
Jun 19, 2012

Darkoni posted:

According to a post, no it doesn't.

It doesn't look like you can just undo mana rocks for no reason, even if you don't spend the mana.

well somebody should tell that to the devs of arena (aka most new players' point of entry to the game) and mtgo.

honestly your conclusion is counter-intuitive. The rules listed don't explicitly say that undoing the illegal spell/ability is the only time you're allowed to undo mana abilities. They just say that, in the case of an illegal play involving mana abilities, those abilities are allowed to be reversed.

I'm not going to scour the rules for an item that states "you cannot undo mana abilities" or "you can undo mana abilities if X Y and/or Z" but, intuitively speaking, any action that is deterministic (e.g. one that does not reveal new information) ought to be reversible.

Dysgenesis
Jul 12, 2012

HAVE AT THEE!


LeafHouse posted:

Some alleged leaks from 2XM2



Muldrifter
Blood artist
Eternal witness
Wall of omens
Flickerwisp
Bloodbraid elf?

All good if not super exciting uncommons.

Jiro
Jan 13, 2004

LeafHouse posted:

Some alleged leaks from 2XM2



Full art borderless UNCOMMONS fml. And gently caress You WoTC if true. I guess this is how you make first Double Masters seem like way better value in retrospect.

TotalHell
Feb 22, 2005

Roman Reigns fights CM Punk in fantasy warld. Lotsa violins, so littl kids cant red it.


Jiro posted:

Full art borderless UNCOMMONS fml. And gently caress You WoTC if true. I guess this is how you make first Double Masters seem like way better value in retrospect.

Come on now you don’t want full foil art of these ICONIC uncommons (for 8x the price)???

flatluigi
Apr 23, 2008

here come the planes
presumably they're also going to exist in the set in a non fancy version, yeah?

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
Those cards are gonna give someone an epilepsy attack.

They shine so bright I can't read them.

Strong Sauce
Jul 2, 2003

You know I am not really your father.





Mentor of the Meek downshifted to Uncommon.

Fajita Queen
Jun 21, 2012

Strong Sauce posted:

Mentor of the Meek downshifted to Uncommon.


MaRo spinning in his office chair

Jiro
Jan 13, 2004

TotalHell posted:

Come on now you don’t want full foil art of these ICONIC uncommons (for 8x the price)???

Maybe I'll hold off on Double Masters Double as well and wait for Dominaria and Brother's War.

kalel
Jun 19, 2012

The Shortest Path posted:

MaRo spinning in his office chair

lol

judging by the output of cards over the last year, I bet Maro has lost a lot of battles re: design space

Silhouette
Nov 16, 2002

SONIC BOOM!!!

That blood artist looks incredible, and reprints of the bounce lands are always nice

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!


Clever Betty
yeah, they look great. but unless the entire pack of those collector boosters is like that, it still ain't worth it, and even if it is all like that I don't think it's worth it

LeafHouse
Apr 22, 2008

That's what you get for not hailing to the chimp!



Silhouette posted:

That blood artist looks incredible, and reprints of the bounce lands are always nice

The bounce lands have been in over a dozen products and they suck.

Captain Invictus posted:

yeah, they look great. but unless the entire pack of those collector boosters is like that, it still ain't worth it, and even if it is all like that I don't think it's worth it

Seems a little early to judge whether collector boosters of this set will be worth it when we don’t know what is being reprinted in the rare/mythic slot. The first double masters was great value even at an eye watering $100 a VIP pack.

Fuzzy Mammal
Aug 15, 2001

Lipstick Apathy
Was it though? I don't remember if the topper was always foil but only a couple are over $100 which is about what they cost:

https://scryfall.com/search?q=e%3A2xm+collector%3E332&order=usd&as=full&unique=cards

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!


Clever Betty
the vip packs always had 2 foil box toppers, yeah.

due to them incorrectly labeling each box to say they could potentially have two mythic box toppers when that turned out to be impossible, you could easily wind up with a vip box with like 15 bucks worth in box toppers, if it was meddling mage and goblin guide or expedition map or something.

LeafHouse
Apr 22, 2008

That's what you get for not hailing to the chimp!



Fuzzy Mammal posted:

Was it though? I don't remember if the topper was always foil but only a couple are over $100 which is about what they cost:

https://scryfall.com/search?q=e%3A2xm+collector%3E332&order=usd&as=full&unique=cards

I’m not sure but it felt like it. You got 2 guaranteed foil toppers plus an extra 2 normal mythics/rares along with a bunch of foil commons and uncommons and some nice unhinged lands.

Jiro
Jan 13, 2004

But we already know the breakdown of the collector packs and at least the VIP packs had not only more cards in it but full art land reprints

These upcoming packs ain't gonna have any of that poo poo. And now knowing it'll be packed in with full art, possibly, foil uncommons? Yeah that's disappointing big time

kalel
Jun 19, 2012

anybody know how to filter for cards that add mana on scryfall? I.e. a regex like "add [WUBRGC]+" except that syntax doesn't work

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

kalel posted:

anybody know how to filter for cards that add mana on scryfall? I.e. a regex like "add [WUBRGC]+" except that syntax doesn't work

https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3A%22add+%7B%22

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LibrarianCroaker
Mar 30, 2010

kalel posted:

anybody know how to filter for cards that add mana on scryfall? I.e. a regex like "add [WUBRGC]+" except that syntax doesn't work

produces keyword seems to work?

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