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Piell posted:If you're running a con just put out a preemptive statement that everyone attending will be be exposed to covid, just to get it out of the way
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Jun 5, 2022 03:24
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Yeah I went to Pax Unplugged last year and it was great, everyone masked up and I don't think any serious outbreak happened
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Jun 5, 2022 03:47
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GetDunked posted:It's not perfect by any means--sometimes the gap between "what is useful" and "what is flavorful" in the same category is pretty huge (looking at you, skill feats)--but it's way better than its predecessor in that regard. I think this is my problem with PF2E; it's better than its predecessor in all regards, I can definitely easily see that, but it's.... it's not good, it's just better than really bad. Like, yeah, sure, I guess the way PF2E does the grabbag of abilities is actually better than 3E. Is it good, though? Not really. And that just... kinda stays the same throughout PF2E when I'm reading it. Neat little improvements but never willing to make any big changes and therefor still saddled to bad design that emphasizes 'optimal' choices because the game doesn't want to admit it can't do everything.
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Jun 5, 2022 03:57
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Absolutely. PF2e is contradictory in places and weak in many more. But it’s the only tactical, immersion stance, adventure supported RPG in active development apart from D&D, and has the bonus of being similar enough to D&D that people will try it out. That alone makes it critically important.
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Jun 5, 2022 07:45
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hyphz posted:immersion stance Yes this is the exact problem I spoke about when I said it couldn't admit that it doesn't do everything; the idea that a game can be immersive past what immersion we bring to it is valid. The idea that PF2E does that is comical. Even with all the nods to faux realism with edge-case rules I really hope most of us have realized that there's no such thing as rules creating immersion just by existing, they need to actually drive immersion instead of just being a coherent part of a whole that, necessarily, removes immersion because it is a codification of reality. edit: For example: I have never once been immersed in a game by rolling for falling damage, even if games that do that mimic reality 'more' than those that don't.
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Jun 5, 2022 07:53
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That’s because immersion and realism are separate things and one doesn’t necessarily lend to the other, especially for all people.
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Jun 5, 2022 07:59
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PF2e certainly isn't perfect, and I would absolutely prefer late-era 4th edition, but there isn't really anything else on the market that does what it does right now. It's a D&D-like tactical fantasy RPG with lots of build options and pretty good balance. Not perfect, mind you, some options are definitely better than others, but it still does a pretty good job and the gulf between an optimized character and an unoptimized one isn't nearly as extreme as in 3.5 or PF. Ironically enough, it's the closest thing to 4e with any presence in the market right now. It also has fighters that are good and cool and fun to play and that counts for a lot in my book.
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Jun 5, 2022 08:28
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Father Wendigo posted:Can we please stop talking about Paizo for a second?
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Jun 5, 2022 11:15
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Jun 5, 2022 11:50
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Splicer posted:I've said it before but anyone organising a con that doesn't make masks mandatory and put a booth of nerdbait masks at the front door hates both people and money. I'm wondering if we'll hear about an outbreak at BGG Spring. I think that considering the state it takes place in and the self-selection for people who are not conscientious about masking we won't hear about it, even though an outbreak will almost certainly happen/have happened (I forget if it's happened yet). But of course, we hear about things like the tragic death of an enforcer at Pax East (which has strict masking requirements and seems to take it quite seriously) and people will pretend it doesn't matter no matter what, despite the very big difference between a few isolated incidents at PAX and something like 1/3rd of people at The Gathering testing positive very rapidly (which had a permissive mask policy), according to anecdoal reports. But then again, it's not all bad. Origins sensibly put their mask policy back into place after the completely predictable spike. Not that it matters for me. I will almost certainly not be at a convention for many years, perhaps not ever again. It's just not worth the risk of dying because some dumbfuck podcast listener coughed on me. I can't play games with 10,000 people anyway, so I'll just play with my friends who I know are vaccinated (except the one guy who legitimately medically cannot).
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Jun 5, 2022 11:51
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Magnetic North posted:I'm wondering if we'll hear about an outbreak at BGG Spring. I think that considering the state it takes place in and the self-selection for people who are not conscientious about masking we won't hear about it, even though an outbreak will almost certainly happen/have happened (I forget if it's happened yet). But of course, we hear about things like the tragic death of an enforcer at Pax East (which has strict masking requirements and seems to take it quite seriously) and people will pretend it doesn't matter no matter what, despite the very big difference between a few isolated incidents at PAX and something like 1/3rd of people at The Gathering testing positive very rapidly (which had a permissive mask policy), according to anecdoal reports. But then again, it's not all bad. Origins sensibly put their mask policy back into place after the completely predictable spike. That didn't happen.
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Jun 5, 2022 12:06
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Darwinism posted:I think this is my problem with PF2E; it's better than its predecessor in all regards, I can definitely easily see that, but it's.... it's not good, it's just better than really bad.
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Jun 5, 2022 13:11
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Does PF2E have weapon chains?
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Jun 5, 2022 13:17
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ICON is actually starting to look pretty good, fortunately.
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Jun 5, 2022 13:56
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UK Games Expo just happened, guess we'll see what happens in a couple of weeks. They were very cavalier about masks last year.
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Jun 5, 2022 13:57
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Darwinism posted:Yes this is the exact problem I spoke about when I said it couldn't admit that it doesn't do everything; the idea that a game can be immersive past what immersion we bring to it is valid. The idea that PF2E does that is comical. Even with all the nods to faux realism with edge-case rules I really hope most of us have realized that there's no such thing as rules creating immersion just by existing, they need to actually drive immersion instead of just being a coherent part of a whole that, necessarily, removes immersion because it is a codification of reality. I mean, it's an awkward word - I think it was being called "actor stance" before, but I dislike that term because actors follow and interpret a script. But the balance of medium awareness required for suspension of disbelief is different between groups, and right now it feels that D&D and PF are the only ones at least trying to minimise the amount the game needs. They don't manage it perfectly, and there are structural issues that inevitably affect the whole hobby, but they seem to be trying. Whereas it's not quite clear if the popularity of the more authorial games among indies is because they think that's the best way to develop a game or because they're easier to design.
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Jun 5, 2022 16:52
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As has been said a thousand times : D&D mechanics (including PF) are not unobtrusive or more immersive or less directorial than most others, you're just really used to abstracting over them and forgetting about them because you've been playing with them for years.
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Jun 5, 2022 17:03
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Xiahou Dun posted:As has been said a thousand times : D&D mechanics (including PF) are not unobtrusive or more immersive or less directorial than most others, you're just really used to abstracting over them and forgetting about them because you've been playing with them for years. Probably something that depends on the person a lot
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Jun 5, 2022 17:08
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Andrast posted:Probably something that depends on the person a lot That's how personal experience tends to work, yes. This is in direct opposition to them being inherently more "immersive" or whatever.
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Jun 5, 2022 17:10
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hyphz posted:I mean, it's an awkward word - I think it was being called "actor stance" before, but I dislike that term because actors follow and interpret a script. But the balance of medium awareness required for suspension of disbelief is different between groups, and right now it feels that D&D and PF are the only ones at least trying to minimise the amount the game needs. They don't manage it perfectly, and there are structural issues that inevitably affect the whole hobby, but they seem to be trying. Whereas it's not quite clear if the popularity of the more authorial games among indies is because they think that's the best way to develop a game or because they're easier to design.
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Jun 5, 2022 18:01
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hyphz posted:I mean, it's an awkward word - I think it was being called "actor stance" before, but I dislike that term because actors follow and interpret a script. But the balance of medium awareness required for suspension of disbelief is different between groups, and right now it feels that D&D and PF are the only ones at least trying to minimise the amount the game needs.They don't manage it perfectly, and there are structural issues that inevitably affect the whole hobby, but they seem to be trying. Whereas it's not quite clear if the popularity of the more authorial games among indies is because they think that's the best way to develop a game or because they're easier to design. If we're looking at "suspension of disbelief" in a game where hit points are consequence free until you lose the last one and in a game where the rulebook sprawls over several hundred pages we're looking in the wrong place. As for "immersion stance" and acting as your character does (and for that matter realism) I find there does not exist a single edition of D&D or PF that can touch Apocalypse World. If anything I'd refer to the D&D basic stance as anti-immersive as with the DM having solo control over the world it means that as an inhabitant I can never truly be confident there. Possibly "Isekai Stance" would be better where it enforces that my character is a tourist and only knows themself. Meanwhile even following your basic "game design should have stuck in the 90s" priorities the first game I'd mention, of course, is WFRP 4e. It has the stance you like - and plenty of adventures. And isn't too much of a jump. Warhammer: Soulbound and 40k: Wrath and Glory are only slightly bigger jumps. Vampire: the Masquerade has the stance you want and far more tactical elements than intended - and Trails of Ash and Bone came out last year. Shadowrun's another tactical game with adventures coming out. I could easily continue. As for "the popularity of the more authorial games among the indies" being "because they're easier to design"? Are you kidding me? Extruded fantasy product in authorial stance with half-assed unplaytested adventures has been churned out since the 1970s. As long as you don't apply quality control (and let's face it many games don't apply much) it's about the easiest thing there is to do. The more authorial games are more modern because we didn't figure them out at all until relatively recently (with the first systematic ones I'd say being in 2003 with Fate and My Life With Master - and them only getting good and flexible as opposed to very niche in about 2010 with Apocalypse World, Leverage, and Fate Core).
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Jun 5, 2022 18:11
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All I can contribute here is that crunchy tactical games aren't more difficult to design, but they're a lot more difficult to test. Assuming of course that you care about things like balance, which indie designers often do and the flagship of the hobby very clearly does not.
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Jun 5, 2022 18:41
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neonchameleon posted:If we're looking at "suspension of disbelief" in a game where hit points are consequence free until you lose the last one hit points are a combination of luck and speed and stamina and armor and losing your last one is meant to be the time you weren't able to parry the blow and the attacker managed to slip his weapon into an unarmored spot etc, so it does make plenty of sense
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Jun 5, 2022 18:56
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:hit points are a combination of luck and speed and stamina and armor and losing your last one is meant to be the time you weren't able to parry the blow and the attacker managed to slip his weapon into an unarmored spot etc, so it does make plenty of sense I believe they are referring to how your character is fully capable and nothing about their status changes at all whether they are at 1hp or 1,000 hp.
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Jun 5, 2022 19:08
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PF2e has some things I like in it but it just looks like too much work. Like, 4e was by no means a light game, but there was a sense of it being streamlined from 3e- a lot of little things were simplified, encumbrance rules were more basic, slashing/piercing/bludgeoning was gone, DR in general was simplified and made rarer, XP budgets were easier to handle than CR, etc. There is a certain sense of classes just *working* and of just being able to do certain things, whereas PF2 looks to try and reach the same ends through the accumulation of feats. And they give you a lot of freebies so you absolutely have the ability to do those things but you have to make sure to write it all down. Like, making a 1st level character in 4e *can* be involved if you have a specific concept in mind, but you can also whip up a basic sword-and-shield fighter or wizard with a fire spell and be ready to go. Like it may be that asking for a balanced, tactical, and crunchy game that also has an easy on-ramp is asking for the moon but 4e hit a certain sweet spot.
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Jun 5, 2022 19:11
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The secret to Pathfinder is downloading Pathbuilder to make/manage your character and play one of the APs. Easiest on ramp to gaming for new players or just people like me who are adults with families and just don't have the time to make a custom campaign. A new part of an adventure coming out every month is incredible, and based on my groups experience the six part ones can take a few years to get through at a easier pace.
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Jun 5, 2022 19:23
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Leraika posted:ICON is actually starting to look pretty good, fortunately. I was gonna to say, folks should play more Strike!, Let Thrones Beware, LANCER, or further afield / with slightly more provisos, Fragged Empire, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Valor, Spellbound Kingdoms... e: and that's honestly just my recently played + backlog, it's been a hot minute since i actually went looking for new games of this genre altogether so this list is, if anything, pretty dated Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jun 5, 2022 |
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Jun 5, 2022 19:44
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Bottom Liner posted:That’s because immersion and realism are separate things and one doesn’t necessarily lend to the other, especially for all people. "immersion" has supplanted "simulationism" as the hot term that's bandied about constantly despite being utterly meaningless on its own, because people use it to refer simultaneously to both systems that emulate realism and systems that emulate genre fidelity, as if those two goals aren't inherently contradictory or rather, they're contradictory unless you operate on the unstated assumption that old-school-style D&D is (against all common sense) both realistic and successful at simulating a genre of fantasy fiction that exists outside of its own tropes
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Jun 5, 2022 19:50
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Personally I do not care about immersion or whatever but I do find D&D style dungeon crawling action very fun and PF2 is pretty great at it imo
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Jun 5, 2022 19:59
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PF2 is the best at actual game mechanics and balance that D&D-likes have ever been besides 4E The idea that is pursuing "immersion" or minimizing "suspension of disbelief" is nonsense, their goal was to actually make a good and balanced game
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Jun 5, 2022 20:06
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Piell posted:PF2 is the best at actual game mechanics and balance that D&D-likes have ever been besides 4E Yes, exactly. "Immersion" and "simulation" are pretty horrible phrases, but the things they're trying to be used to describe exist. Hit points might come across as no less valid an abstraction than daily moves, but players - grogs or otherwise - still do ask why their PC can't do a sword move more than once a day. Nobody asks why their PC didn't have their leg mutilated. And if anyone asks why they can't deliberately chop off the NPCs leg, "because they're trying to stop you" is usually accepted as an answer. Yes, the players might not know what is and isn't improvised. Finding a clue taped underneath the Mayor's desk feels better if you can believe it was always there, rightly or wrongly. It feels even better if you know that many other people have played the same adventure and found or not found the same clue in the same place and you can go gloat about it online. In my brief doomed period of trying to attract local interest in narrative games, I found reasons for disinterest I'd never considered. Several parents pointed out that they do collaborative storytelling with their children anyway and don't need to do more. One mentioned that the visual aspect was critical (remember how the old Tomb of Horrors had a book of illustrations with it, so that the GM would show the players a first-person view of the room they were entering as the PCs entered it? When did that stop? Why?)
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Jun 5, 2022 21:05
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verisimilitude,
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Jun 5, 2022 21:06
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Source your quotes, hyphz
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Jun 5, 2022 21:20
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hyphz posted:Yes, exactly. "Immersion" and "simulation" are pretty horrible phrases, but the things they're trying to be used to describe exist.
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Jun 5, 2022 21:22
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Arguing about what HP means has gotta be the most common nerd debate when it comes to D&D, right? At least, it's the one I've heard discussed the most both offline and online. As for people going "I already tell stories with my kids" or needing illustrations to get into the game... Hyphz, I'm beginning to think you're cursed. Nothing on you, just every story about your local playerbase makes it seem like you're living in the Negative Zone.
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Jun 5, 2022 21:30
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Also - Tomb of Horrors illustrations never really started. It was one adventure. And I'm stumped as to what it has to do with.... more narrative adventures?
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Jun 5, 2022 21:33
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gtrmp posted:"immersion" has supplanted "simulationism" as the hot term that's bandied about constantly despite being utterly meaningless on its own, because people use it to refer simultaneously to both systems that emulate realism and systems that emulate genre fidelity, as if those two goals aren't inherently contradictory Eh, it makes sense if you take the position that 'realism' in tabletop gaming and media is just another genre with it's own tropes and stock characters and such. Realistic games don't simulate reality, because that's absurd; they give the impression of realness. This is why realistic military games tend to have big charts of nearly-identical AK variants instead of just lumping every assault rifle into one category. It's a prop that implies more reality is there than actually is. But that's not a very groggy perspective, so I doubt that's what they're saying.
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Jun 5, 2022 21:37
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dwarf74 posted:Also - Tomb of Horrors illustrations never really started. It was one adventure.
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Jun 5, 2022 21:39
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BinaryDoubts posted:Arguing about what HP means has gotta be the most common nerd debate when it comes to D&D, right? At least, it's the one I've heard discussed the most both offline and online. Enough that people keep the Gygax quote from the ADHD era handy in case it flares up again. Gary Gygax posted:It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability
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Jun 5, 2022 21:59
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Bespoke RPG illustrations for every notable room didn't catch on because art is more expensive than words and stat blocks.
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Jun 5, 2022 22:17
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