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BrianWilly posted:TLJ is so bad I would literally rather watch Morbius Not to interrupt Star Wars chat but With Morbius bombing (twice) I wonder if Sony is going to continue going through with the El Muerto movie
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Jun 6, 2022 11:06
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TLJ swerves from the typical star wars vibe, which people appreciated because it was new and weird, even if it does some dumb stuff on the way. tRoS swerves back into incredibly boring, familiar space, and does some unforgivably dumb stuff as a consequence. The Treverrow script would have actually been able to gently swerve back in a way that would have made everyone moderately happy. But he had to go and make the dumbest movie in history, and got shitcanned.
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Jun 6, 2022 11:29
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TLJ would've been much better received if the bones weren't a bizarrely slow space chase. Like the concept was not only bizarre to Star Wars which never showed space combat like that but also to just common sensibility. Itd be like if a Fast and Furious movie was all centered around an OJ bronco chase going at 35 mph.
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Jun 6, 2022 11:43
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Rian Johnson is the Zack Snyder of Star Wars
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Jun 6, 2022 12:03
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Thundercracker posted:TLJ would've been much better received if the bones weren't a bizarrely slow space chase. Like the concept was not only bizarre to Star Wars which never showed space combat like that but also to just common sensibility. Itd be like if a Fast and Furious movie was all centered around an OJ bronco chase going at 35 mph. My theory is that the low speed chase is essentially putting a kettle on the stove, simmering to a boiling point of aggravatingly building tension until the Holdo Maneuver scene, and that the sudden eruption of movement wouldn’t have landed on audiences in the same way if the ships had all been tearing rear end across the universe in some bombastic space battle. The entire film is just a pressure cooker building to the one universally beloved scene from that movie, and the only reason it works as well as it did is because of the previous 90 minutes of impossibly frustratingly slow space chase
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Jun 6, 2022 12:37
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They turned Star Wars into an episode of Battlestar Galactica and it was awful.
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Jun 6, 2022 12:55
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Invalid Validation posted:I liked it but I guess I was one of the few. It tried to do something different with Star Wars and since there was so much nerdy rage about it they ended up doing RoS which didn’t give anyone anything to like. I don’t want to push the derail further, but can I ask about the “doing something different” thing? I don’t like the film, and others call it the best Star Wars film. Fair enough, we all like different things and I’ll never like it and they’ll never hate it. I really want to understand those who, like you, claim it is different some how. Because I truly cannot see anything beyond recycled SW material put in a different order, and regardless of like/dislike surely we should be able to quantify this part of things.
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Jun 6, 2022 13:20
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kazil posted:Not to interrupt Star Wars chat but Say what you will about Morbius, but fans know who that is
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Jun 6, 2022 13:31
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Parkingtigers posted:I don’t want to push the derail further, but can I ask about the “doing something different” thing? I've not seen the film in ages so I have no overall thesis to share, and I'm not invalid validation so I can't share their thesis, but I'd roughly agree with the sentiment that The Last Jedi did things differently. It pokes fun or otherwise undermines a handful of sacred cows, which is IMO good -- Luke's a bit of a failed slob, the Han Solo archetype is problematised rather than lionised, etc. etc. -- and on a purely visual / aural level the space ship crash is unlike anything the series has ever produced before or since. It also acknowledges that the Manichean values that underpin Star Wars are actually a bit simplistic (which echoes Chris Avellone's commentary about the entire Star Wars galaxy bending over backwards to accommodate a holy war between a handful of space wizards) when it suggests that the real villains to be the spectre of capitalist exploitation, and that Snoke et. al. are a distraction. The final image suggests is also an empowering statement of a kind that the series doesn't really engage with; the anonymous slave kid, like Rey, isn't someone from some mystical lineage who's been born to great power / destiny / mystical goo gah wah woo whatever. He's not the hero with a thousand faces. But he can be a jedi -- a hero -- just like anyone else. Of course Disney would never let something like stand though, so we got a deeply compromised film.
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Jun 6, 2022 13:58
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My take away was that the characters kept failing because they just tried to the same things as previous movies. Poe launches a death star style last ditch attack at the beginning of the movie to no real consequence, Finn travels to a crime-ridden city to recruit an unsavory character who turns out to be an unsavory character, Luke attempts to train Rey the same way he was trained and the way he trained Ben and almost delivers her right to the dark side.
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Jun 6, 2022 14:28
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Luke being a hobo is different but different doesn't equal good. Or smart. Making one of the Heroes of generations a failed old man in his first reappearance in years is monumentally stupid in so many ways.
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Jun 6, 2022 15:52
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FlamingLiberal posted:That movie is a weird choice because it’s basically a new character Morbius has fans?
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Jun 6, 2022 15:59
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tsob posted:Morbius has fans? He might be a B-tier Spider-man villain, but the character is still more interesting in the comics, than the generic movie made him out to be.
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Jun 6, 2022 16:17
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RBX posted:Luke being a hobo is different but different doesn't equal good. Or smart. Making one of the Heroes of generations a failed old man in his first reappearance in years is monumentally stupid in so many ways. The timing of this post alongside the airing of a hugely anticipated series about a different beloved jedi's hobo years is hilarious. Failing hard and then running away to hide is practically in the Jedi Code.
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Jun 6, 2022 16:38
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RBX posted:Luke being a hobo is different but different doesn't equal good. Or smart. Making one of the Heroes of generations a failed old man in his first reappearance in years is monumentally stupid in so many ways. OP was asking what the film did differently, not what the film did well  That said I'm pretty happy with it, but I'm interested in why you think it's stupid.
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Jun 6, 2022 17:00
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RBX posted:Luke being a hobo is different but different doesn't equal good. Or smart. Making one of the Heroes of generations a failed old man in his first reappearance in years is monumentally stupid in so many ways. It ruled
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Jun 6, 2022 17:14
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BrianWilly posted:TLJ is a great study into what happens when a film gets created by actual aliens from outer space who have never met a human being in their lives, and also these aliens are complete idiots Arist posted:You don't have to like the movie but this is hyperbolic to the point it becomes asinine Strom Cuzewon posted:TLJ swerves from the typical star wars vibe, which people appreciated because it was new and weird, even if it does some dumb stuff on the way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCGschgLUPI Thundercracker posted:TLJ would've been much better received if the bones weren't a bizarrely slow space chase. Like the concept was not only bizarre to Star Wars which never showed space combat like that but also to just common sensibility. Itd be like if a Fast and Furious movie was all centered around an OJ bronco chase going at 35 mph. RBX posted:Luke being a hobo is different but different doesn't equal good. Or smart. Making one of the Heroes of generations a failed old man in his first reappearance in years is monumentally stupid in so many ways.
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Jun 6, 2022 17:24
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tsob posted:Morbius has fans? 
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Jun 6, 2022 17:49
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RBX posted:Luke being a hobo is different but different doesn't equal good. Or smart. Making one of the Heroes of generations a failed old man in his first reappearance in years is monumentally stupid in so many ways. I wonder why someone would make a movie about the heroes of a bygone age becoming complacent and enabling the resurgence of fascist ideals.
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Jun 6, 2022 17:57
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kazil posted:Not to interrupt Star Wars chat but I think it depends on how popular Bad Bunny remains. It screams "this guy is super hot right now, lets get him to sign a contract now! It doesn't matter, just find something!" from Sony. Strom Cuzewon posted:TLJ swerves from the typical star wars vibe, which people appreciated because it was new and weird, even if it does some dumb stuff on the way. Yea and the Book of Henry is insane. I hated Jurassic World. Its a weirdly mean spirited movie. Bleck posted:I wonder why someone would make a movie about the heroes of a bygone age becoming complacent and enabling the resurgence of fascist ideals. The worst thing is that the whole sequel trilogy never, ONCE explained why the First Order was able to do what it does. The Aftermath Books are the only place its explained that Mon Mothma and the rest of the Rebel leaders except a handful including Leia went "there has been to much war in the galaxy, so we're going to completely disarm and use only diplomacy to stop any problems" and they just ignored the issue of the First Order and Imperial Remnants running around because the "galaxy is sick of war". So they just let the space fascists rebuild because meeting force with force just makes you as bad as those that started the violence. Its actually pretty great for what has happened the last few years, as we ended up with legit nazis running around and in power in many places because people were told that "everyone has their opinions and you need to respect all of them" and punch nazis made you just as bad and so on. But again the movies never once communicate these. The closest we get is Luke saying "yea i realized poo poo was hosed so I was just 'laters' and ran off". He didn't want to be involved because no one else wanted to get involved with him, that everyone was just complacent. The Empire was gone so therefor everything was fine right? No reason to do any more work. I know goons seem to take the "show don't tell" writing advice as some kind of law, but a scene like the scene in ANH where Tarkin and his middle managers sit around a table basically explain the political situation would have been extremely helpful. But no, they knew people hated the scenes of pointless political discourse in the Prequels so they wanted to just skip over that so we have no idea about why anythings happening. Even Eternals, for the mess it is, communicates on why they're doing what they're doing, and why they didn't fight Thanos or Loki or Whiplash. They're duty was to fight deviants and secretly just make sure humans would evolve to a point where the celestial would be born. As they are not truly living beings but artificial constructs, it can be accepted that their programming would not allow them to go and fight with the Avengers. Though I think a lot of people fell asleep and missed all the explicit conversations they have about this subject, that the Eternal are basically as useless as a cop unless its that one specific thing they are told to do.
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Jun 6, 2022 20:58
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RBX posted:Luke being a hobo is different but different doesn't equal good. Or smart. Making one of the Heroes of generations a failed old man in his first reappearance in years is monumentally stupid in so many ways. If Luke was being a cool super jedi, how would explain the first order and their massive new death star thing? For the first order to exist in FA all the old heroes need to have f'd up pretty bad.
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Jun 6, 2022 21:30
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I gotta be honest, Red October but in Star Wars is actually a dynamite concept, it was just weirdly inconsistent about the stakes. Rey's biggest training moments happen during that time and then also finds and meets up with the villains? Finn leaves, finds and comes back with an asset? Scene to scene it was just.... weirdly disjointed. Three connected plots that were all moving at different speeds was really jarring for me, personally. Also I found the script weird and unlikable. I haven't seen it since release so I can't remember why. I also hated Solo but again, Dirty Dozen in Star Wars is a simple but good combination.
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Jun 6, 2022 21:32
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mutata posted:The timing of this post alongside the airing of a hugely anticipated series about a different beloved jedi's hobo years is hilarious. Luke is not Obi Wan. They are two different characters with two different expectations. Open Source Idiom posted:OP was asking what the film did differently, not what the film did well It's stupid for making everything they did in the OG Trilogy mean nothing if afterwards they just fail at everything then hide again. It also ruins it for the brand and marketing. Bleck posted:I wonder why someone would make a movie about the heroes of a bygone age becoming complacent and enabling the resurgence of fascist ideals. That's all well and good but this is a fantasy story. Nobody wants people like Luke or Han to be a joke. JoylessJester posted:If Luke was being a cool super jedi, how would explain the first order and their massive new death star thing? For the first order to exist in FA all the old heroes need to have f'd up pretty bad. That's the problem with these in the first place. They inevitably gently caress up the story they're supposed to be following by merely existing. The first order was a dumb idea in the first place.
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Jun 6, 2022 21:59
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RBX posted:That's all well and good but this is a fantasy story. Nobody wants people like Luke or Han to be a joke.
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Jun 6, 2022 22:04
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I like Luke being a gently caress up because it gives us that awesome come back at the end. Him dying was kinda dumb, but the Treverrow script had him leading Kylo back to the light whilst also dunking on him for being a dumbass.
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Jun 6, 2022 22:08
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there really wasn't enough pod racing in the sequel trilogy imo
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Jun 6, 2022 22:09
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I like Luke being a gently caress up because it gives us that awesome come back at the end. Mark Hamill keeps getting cast into roles where a good chunk of his screentime is pestering people as a vision after he dies.
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Jun 6, 2022 22:15
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RBX posted:Luke is not Obi Wan. They are two different characters with two different expectations. Sure whatever. Hey, who trained Luke again? A failure of a super powerful Jedi who hosed off and went into hiding? Hmmm. Almost like it's a unifying theme that's explicitly part of the text... mutata fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jun 6, 2022 |
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Jun 6, 2022 22:18
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BrianWilly posted:TLJ is a great study into what happens when a film gets created by actual aliens from outer space who have never met a human being in their lives, and also these aliens are complete idiots This post was written by an idiot alien
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Jun 6, 2022 22:19
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BrianWilly posted:Rian Johnson is the Zack Snyder of Star Wars You’re the Brett ratner of posters
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Jun 6, 2022 22:20
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twistedmentat posted:The worst thing is that the whole sequel trilogy never, ONCE explained why the First Order was able to do what it does. They don't explain it because they don't have an explanation. I think part of the reason the prequels are developing a kinder reputation is that, despite their flaws, the world of them makes sense. The Old Republic was complacent and ineffectual, arrogantly convinced of its own prosperity and easily blind-sided by anyone with the capacity to see the cracks. This general vibe of hubristic opulence pasted over a fracturing society echoes in the tone and the aesthetic of those movies, which all feel totally different from the OT and appropriately so. The sequel trilogy has none of that consideration. It was interested in duplicating the look and feel of the OT, and didn't care to justify why things would be that way in the story. The First Order is just The Empire, but again. The Resistance is just The Rebellion, but again. Sure, it's been decades since ROTJ. Sure, "the Resistance" was actually the deputized power structure of the New Republic, and the First Order is some fascist uprising on the fringes seeking to unseat the official government. But it doesn't feel like that, because The Rebellion needs to look like a ragtag band of plucky heroes with improvised equipment, and The Empire needs to look like a brutalist, uniformed cabal of well-tailored Space Nazis. The First Order is able to do what it does because it's a hard reset to ANH but with slightly remixed variables.
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Jun 6, 2022 23:01
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JoylessJester posted:If Luke was being a cool super jedi, how would explain the first order and their massive new death star thing? For the first order to exist in FA all the old heroes need to have f'd up pretty bad. Eh, not really, as the 9th film in the series establishes that the clone-ghost of Emperor Palpatine can simply manifest hundreds of billion-ton Star Destroyer battle shields (and crew and arm them) using only the Dark Side of the force, so it really doesn’t matter how big or powerful the oppositional forces are
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Jun 6, 2022 23:05
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Xealot posted:The sequel trilogy has none of that consideration. It was interested in duplicating the look and feel of the OT, and didn't care to justify why things would be that way in the story. The First Order is just The Empire, but again. The Resistance is just The Rebellion, but again. Sure, it's been decades since ROTJ. Sure, "the Resistance" was actually the deputized power structure of the New Republic, and the First Order is some fascist uprising on the fringes seeking to unseat the official government. But it doesn't feel like that, because The Rebellion needs to look like a ragtag band of plucky heroes with improvised equipment, and The Empire needs to look like a brutalist, uniformed cabal of well-tailored Space Nazis. That's a massive problem with the way TFA establishes the sequel trilogy and a lot of the reason I don't like that movie very much.
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Jun 6, 2022 23:08
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The Mandalorian does a pretty good job of showing the new Republic losing its grip and struggling to stamp out the imperial remnant. Its just that should probably have been in the movie. twistedmentat posted:
Oh poo poo, he did Jurassic World? Dude has multiple contenders for dumbest movie ever. I was thinking of Book of Henry, because I've never seen a movie quite capture that feeling of "what the hell were you thinking when you made this?"
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Jun 6, 2022 23:09
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Strom Cuzewon posted:The Mandalorian does a pretty good job of showing the new Republic losing its grip and struggling to stamp out the imperial remnant. Its just that should probably have been in the movie. Pretty much every pitch I've heard for the post-ROTJ timeline sounds better or at least more interesting than the one we actually got in the ST. The idea that the "fall of the Empire" was actually just that power structure fracturing into smaller fiefdoms is a good one. If the "New Republic" was simply one well-defined entity among others in a kind of Warring States period, that sounds cool as gently caress. Makes the setting feel bigger, gives the plot complexity, and feels different from the setting in either of the previous trilogies. But why make a new movie when you can make an old movie, again?
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Jun 6, 2022 23:27
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BrianWilly posted:Rian Johnson is the Zack Snyder of Star Wars
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Jun 6, 2022 23:44
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300 is good
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Jun 6, 2022 23:54
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I’m just pissed we never got an “it rhymes” scene of Luke storming a corridor full of terrified stormtroopers…but he peacefully passes them by, using the Force to put them to sleep as he taps them on the helmet.
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Jun 6, 2022 23:54
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Luke can be as much of a sad space hobo as they want, that's not the problem here; as someone mentioned, this was a character beat that was already established in TFA anyway. Everyone was looking forward to weird sad space hobo Luke. The problem is the movie taking one look at this character whose greatest, most memorable moment to date was deciding that his father can be redeemed no matter how bad he had become...and then making this character try to murder his teenage nephew in his sleep because -- and this is literally all the explanation we will ever get for this -- magic vibes made him think his nephew might maybe go bad. It is the most cretinous, moronic take on Luke Skywalker you can make and to this date the Star Wars mythos has yet to recover from this degree of precision-pinpoint character assassination. It will likely never recover so long as Disney refuses to walk it back. That people would stumble about defending this preposterously out-of-character writing decision as something "new"  or "interesting" make it real clear that they had never liked this character in the first place, much less understood him. It is fundamentally no different from extolling Snyder's sad sack inhuman recluse Superman because the old Superman was just too boring, except -- and brace yourself here, I'm about to slightly sanction something that Snyder did -- Snyder at least had the excuse that he was working from an entirely new cloth, a whole separate continuity divorced from anything that came before. And even then, at bare minimum even Snyder, of all people, at least put work into establishing why his character was the way that he was. Johnson doesn't even manage that.And this is all before taking a slight gander at the pro-establishment "what if I made my entire ship mutiny against me before coming up with a workable plan" Holdo plot or Rey's fanfic infatuation for Severus Snape Jr. As I said, written by idiots who have no idea how real humans behave.
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Jun 7, 2022 00:11
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Xealot posted:They don't explain it because they don't have an explanation. As i said, the Aftermath trilogy and a bunch of other books put out fill in all the story. That the Rebels fought the remnants of the Empire for 3 years until the battle of Jakku and defeated them yet again. Admerial Ray Sloan takes a big bunch of what was left after the battle and travels to the Unknown Regions. There they Met Snoke who transformed them from the Imperial Remnants to the First Order. When they came back they were small, only a handful of ships but they were powerful enough that the New Republic didn't want to risk starting a war with them because of this incredibly naive desire to not wanting to start a war again, so they just let them do whatever they wanted as long as they didn't just straight up attack the Republics major worlds. The First Order also had both sympathizers in the Senate and also just paid off a bunch as well to keep the Republic gridlocked in what to do with them. There is zero of this communicated in the movie, the fact you have to go to novels to find this out was an incredibly stupid idea. A handful of people will read the books compared to those that will watch the films. Imagine if Infinity War didn't exist and they had just gone with Endgame, and then marvel put out a graphic novel of what happened when Thanos won? It would be just as dumb. Honestly the biggest issue with the Sequels is they thought they could get 3 directors who had very different levels of skill and skillsets involved with making films and not having any kind of over arching plan. All 3 should have at least been outlined and the directors said "you must do x y and z but you are free to do them however you want and also add whatever you want". It worked for marvel why not apply it to literally the biggest franchise they own after Mickey?
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Jun 7, 2022 00:14
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